Tactics Talk:

[Izzy]

25 minutes ago, Gazza M said:

Vardy and Kasper run this club. They do what they like.

New chant?

[Mike Oxlong]

8 minutes ago, FoxesWalk said:

Vardys stats for receiving the ball in the final third and not losing it are massively better than any other attacker in our squad last time I checked a month or two back, no one else is even close to even being in the same league as his numbers. I was surprised how poor the likes of Barnes were in comparison. Vardy may not touch the ball that much, but when he does he very rarely wastes it, he does something positive and seldom gives away possession.  

Barnes can be so frustrating. He’s like the bloke who puts all the hard yards in on a date only to spoil it all at the end of the evening by revealing that he’s wearing a rather old pair of underpants when it starts getting passionate 

[Scotch]

I wonder if it's worth pitching all 3 striker in for a game. Daka, Vardy and Nacho all as central strikers, maddison and Youri as #8s with Ndidi doing nothing but protecting the back four. Two central defenders and two fullbacks providing width.... A massive gamble defensively but it works a treat on Football manager so it MUST work.

 

Seriously though, barring Maddison I think it's worth a shot. We would maybe need a KDH or a Soumare type player to offer balance as Mads might be a little two forward thinking. 

[Deeg67]

33 minutes ago, Gazza M said:

Vardy and Kasper run this club. They do what they like.

And that's a big problem.

[messerschmitt]

38 minutes ago, volpeazzurro said:

Wingbacks would be vital to that system but sadly we only one, JJ and he's injured. If you really think Ricardo and Castagne are good wingbacks, therein lies the problem, that's why it doesn't work, because they're not. They are good attacking fullbacks and there's a huge difference. 

Yes, modern wing backs are more like traditional wingers who track back, apart from the athleticism to get forward and back they also need to have some trickery to beat opponents and show they can go past an opponent and not just pass inside when an opponent is in front of them. We can't do that. I don't think our CB's play that well as a 3 either. Without a winger to help defend a left wing back has to have the left CB shift over when needed same on the right but our 3 CB's stay central.

In that system players would be better having a CB and a LB and RB as the 3 and Barnes and Lookman as wing backs. We'd probably be no worse defensively but better attacking wise.

I'd just prefer us to bin 3 at the back to be honest. I'm sure we're no better defensively with that system. I hope we just stick to 4 at the back. We can still play 4.4.2 or 4.2.3.1 or 4.3.3. just stick to 4 at the back. We just don't have the players to be effective with 5.

[StriderHiryu]

1 hour ago, volpeazzurro said:

Wingbacks would be vital to that system but sadly we only one, JJ and he's injured. If you really think Ricardo and Castagne are good wingbacks, therein lies the problem, that's why it doesn't work, because they're not. They are good attacking fullbacks and there's a huge difference. 

Castagne played wingback exclusively at Atalanta for 2+ years under Gasperini, during which time they finished in the Champions League places twice, including playing a pivotal part in victories over Juventus from that position.

 

He's been off form this season, as have many of our players, but to say he's not a good wingback is doing him a massive disservice.

 

Ricardo I'd agree with, as he's never really played that system for a long time, he's always been a fullback with a wide forward ahead of him at Porto, Nice and Leicester. 

 

[escape2victory]

9 minutes ago, StriderHiryu said:

Castagne played wingback exclusively at Atalanta for 2+ years under Gasperini, during which time they finished in the Champions League places twice, including playing a pivotal part in victories over Juventus from that position.

 

He's been off form this season, as have many of our players, but to say he's not a good wingback is doing him a massive disservice.

 

Ricardo I'd agree with, as he's never really played that system for a long time, he's always been a fullback with a wide forward ahead of him at Porto, Nice and Leicester. 

 

Agreed. The best games I’ve seen Castagne have for us has been as a right wing back. Admittedly he doesn’t look great as a left wing back as has to come inside and ends up playing it square or backwards. The only way really we can get the wingback system working properly is if we bought a specialist left footed wing back, especially as whenever we play it, the left sided CB (Soyuncu) is also right footed, and it just makes it bloody awkward !

[sacreblueits442]

2 hours ago, NasPb said:

Agreed, wilf is a destroyer, should be like a brick wall holding down the midfield not pressing 24/7 high up 

....it is obvious that Rodgers wants a different type of player to Wilf!!!

 He wants someone with Wilf's skills and with the ability to support from midfield (Kante). It is never going to happen, Wilf's passing range and accuracy precludes him from being that type of player and although he has to some extent improved on the ball, he is not going to fulfil that brief.

  Sat infront of the defence, breaking up play and giving it to players around who are capable of better distribution and moving the ball quicker, is what his game should be about.

  This would free up Soumare as he seems to be level (on the pitch) with Wilf  and Wilf having to adjust his play to accommodate him.

  Rodgers is attempting to reinvent Wilf, he (Rodgers) knows what he wants from him, but that is not I believe how Wilf wants to play, and we need to be playing to players strengths 

  The experiment is over, Rodgers needs to deal with the player he has got and make it work for both parties.

[volpeazzurro]

1 hour ago, StriderHiryu said:

Castagne played wingback exclusively at Atalanta for 2+ years under Gasperini, during which time they finished in the Champions League places twice, including playing a pivotal part in victories over Juventus from that position.

 

He's been off form this season, as have many of our players, but to say he's not a good wingback is doing him a massive disservice.

 

Ricardo I'd agree with, as he's never really played that system for a long time, he's always been a fullback with a wide forward ahead of him at Porto, Nice and Leicester. 

 

Just because someone has done something for a long time doesn't necessarily compute to them being good at it. Perez for example has previously played out on the right quite a bit but, you could play him there until the cows come home and he'd always be poor even in a winning side. I think he's a very decent fullback who has the ability to add a good attacking contribution. 

 

As a wingback he has neither trickery or a standing start burst of pace but is good on the overlap. He's not overly robust either. If you were to compare him to Rhy James for example, who we only saw at the weekend,  although he's 4 years younger, already  there's no contest as a supposed wingback.

 

If he's played on the left, unless it against very poor opposition he's merely reasonable left back cover but offers little in attack. I think he's a very decent player and I'm not knocking him, I just think he's been in the past a victim being played in a role he's not going to be at his best in particularly centre half where he was shocking, but, he can't be criticised for any of this as he merely does as he's ordered to.

 

I think 'Messershmitt' above gives a good description of what we should reasonably expect from a pukka wingback.

Edited 26 November 2021 by volpeazzurro

[notnow john]

1 hour ago, StriderHiryu said:

Castagne played wingback exclusively at Atalanta for 2+ years under Gasperini, during which time they finished in the Champions League places twice, including playing a pivotal part in victories over Juventus from that position.

 

He's been off form this season, as have many of our players, but to say he's not a good wingback is doing him a massive disservice.

 

Ricardo I'd agree with, as he's never really played that system for a long time, he's always been a fullback with a wide forward ahead of him at Porto, Nice and Leicester. 

 

As you are our tactical guru, could I pick your brains on Amarty’s positioning last night.

On several occasions he crossed in front of Soyuncu to engage an attacker, this seemed unusual as it potentially left a hole where he should be.

 I’ve always been led to believe that,in a back four, unless covering behind, central defenders don’t cross.
Don’t think he was drawn out of position,it seemed like a deliberate tactic.

Cheers.

 

[coolhandfox]

29 minutes ago, volpeazzurro said:

Just because someone has done something for a long time doesn't necessarily compute to them being good at it. Perez for example has previously played out on the right quite a bit but, you could play him there until the cows come home and he'd always be poor even in a winning side. I think he's a very decent fullback who has the ability to add a good attacking contribution. 

 

As a wingback he has neither trickery or a standing start burst of pace but is good on the overlap. He's not overly robust either. If you were to compare him to Rhy James for example, who we only saw at the weekend,  although he's 4 years younger, already  there's no contest as a supposed wingback.

 

If he's played on the left, unless it against very poor opposition he's merely reasonable left back cover but offers little in attack. I think he's a very decent player and I'm not knocking him, I just think he's been in the past a victim being played in a role he's not going to be at his best in particularly centre half where he was shocking, but, he can't be criticised for any of this as he merely does as he's ordered to.

 

I think 'Messershmitt' above gives a good description of what we should reasonably expect from a pukka wingback.

Did you ever watch him play for Atalanta were he played 80 games a LWB or RWB he only played 4 other games at any other position.

 

In those 80 games he got 8 goals and 9 assists, not bad for someone you think can't play there.   

 

 

[Finnegan]

21 minutes ago, notnow john said:

As you are our tactical guru, could I pick your brains on Amarty’s positioning last night.

On several occasions he crossed in front of Soyuncu to engage an attacker, this seemed unusual as it potentially left a hole where he should be.

 I’ve always been led to believe that,in a back four, unless covering behind, central defenders don’t cross.
Don’t think he was drawn out of position,it seemed like a deliberate tactic.

Cheers.

 

 

He just has horrific positional discipline. 

[volpeazzurro]

23 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Did you ever watch him play for Atalanta were he played 80 games a LWB or RWB he only played 4 other games at any other position.

 

In those 80 games he got 8 goals and 9 assists, not bad for someone you think can't play there.   

 

 

That was there, this is here. Serie A is night and day with the Premiership. It's far slower, less physical and more tactical. Whatever his attributes there that you claim he had have not transported here with him, it's chalk and cheese. He's not too bad as a wing back against poor opposition here but although adequate cover as left fullback he's piss poor as a left wing back when asked to do it here as he was at centre half. 

 

He's covered left back for Belgium too but only I think about 3 times out of around 19 appearances. By his own mouth in interview, one of the things he didn't like at Atalanta was being required to play on the left. 

[Kierzz]

5 hours ago, FoxesWalk said:

Vardys stats for receiving the ball in the final third and not losing it are massively better than any other attacker in our squad last time I checked a month or two back, no one else is even close to even being in the same league as his numbers. I was surprised how poor the likes of Barnes were in comparison. Vardy may not touch the ball that much, but when he does he very rarely wastes it, he does something positive and seldom gives away possession.  

Would be a really interesting stat to see for our players / team. Where did you manage to find that?

[An Sionnach]

7 minutes ago, volpeazzurro said:

That was there, this is here. Serie A is night and day with the Premiership. It's far slower, less physical and more tactical. Whatever his attributes there that you claim he had have not transported here with him, it's chalk and cheese. He's not too bad as a wing back against poor opposition here but although adequate cover as left fullback he's piss poor as a left wing back when asked to do it here as he was at centre half. 

 

He's covered left back for Belgium too but only I think about 3 times out of around 19 appearances. By his own mouth in interview, one of the things he didn't like at Atalanta was being required to play on the left. 

That highlights how much better Justin is, left or right he is comfortable. Why? because unlike so many he has worked and worked on his left foot until he very confident in it. 

[StriderHiryu]

1 hour ago, notnow john said:

As you are our tactical guru, could I pick your brains on Amarty’s positioning last night.

On several occasions he crossed in front of Soyuncu to engage an attacker, this seemed unusual as it potentially left a hole where he should be.

 I’ve always been led to believe that,in a back four, unless covering behind, central defenders don’t cross.
Don’t think he was drawn out of position,it seemed like a deliberate tactic.

Cheers.

 

TBH as Finnegan says, I think it was poor positioning from him. Perhaps it's also a by product of Rodgers wanting our defenders to engage the ball early when defending and being used to playing that way as part of a back 3 usually where that's OK as one man will be spare. In a two it leaves massive gaps so should be a no-no unless it's as part of a higher press.

 

Regardless though, I thought he was one of our better players last night, as he was been for much of the season. Perhaps that in itself tells you why we've struggled so badly this time round! But to defend Amartey he's played in pretty much every game we've won this season and last night only knew he was playing late on according to Rodgers. He's never going to be first team for a few reasons; not that good on the ball for the style of play we have and because he's prone to a lapse of concentration / positional mistake. But all that said he's improved massively this season and been one of the better members of the squad.

[cityfanlee23]

3 hours ago, StriderHiryu said:

Castagne played wingback exclusively at Atalanta for 2+ years under Gasperini, during which time they finished in the Champions League places twice, including playing a pivotal part in victories over Juventus from that position.

 

He's been off form this season, as have many of our players, but to say he's not a good wingback is doing him a massive disservice.

 

Ricardo I'd agree with, as he's never really played that system for a long time, he's always been a fullback with a wide forward ahead of him at Porto, Nice and Leicester. 

 

I kind of feel that with Castagne, his "form" is more based around the squad, he's not an individual genius kind of player, he excels when he's giving options to others and creating those moments for others, which is why he did so well at Atalanta, where every player was drilled into a system revolved around the squad as a unit rather than individuals. Atalanta create chances by creating space as an entire squad of players, whereas we typically create space by a couple of players moving around. We play wingbacks yet don't really seem to know how to utilise them, It feels like there is a bit of a disconnect between TC's style of play and BR's style of play. We really don't seem to play in a way that allows our wingbacks to impact anything imo. 

[eblair]

23 minutes ago, cityfanlee23 said:

I kind of feel that with Castagne, his "form" is more based around the squad, he's not an individual genius kind of player, he excels when he's giving options to others and creating those moments for others, which is why he did so well at Atalanta, where every player was drilled into a system revolved around the squad as a unit rather than individuals. Atalanta create chances by creating space as an entire squad of players, whereas we typically create space by a couple of players moving around. We play wingbacks yet don't really seem to know how to utilise them, It feels like there is a bit of a disconnect between TC's style of play and BR's style of play. We really don't seem to play in a way that allows our wingbacks to impact anything imo. 

thought he's been our best player this year tbh; didnt look great yday but that might have something to do with dislocating his shoulder during the game

[The_77]

5 hours ago, Scotch said:

I wonder if it's worth pitching all 3 striker in for a game. Daka, Vardy and Nacho all as central strikers, maddison and Youri as #8s with Ndidi doing nothing but protecting the back four. Two central defenders and two fullbacks providing width.... A massive gamble defensively but it works a treat on Football manager so it MUST work.

 

Seriously though, barring Maddison I think it's worth a shot. We would maybe need a KDH or a Soumare type player to offer balance as Mads might be a little two forward thinking. 

You need at least two of those players to be willing to do the hard defensive work required of attacking players. Look at season’s PSG’s problems when they go up against any decent side. You can’t expect to win those games against good sides when you have three players with no defensive responsibilities, even if their names are Messi, Neymar and Mbappe. 

[The_77]

5 hours ago, Scotch said:

I wonder if it's worth pitching all 3 striker in for a game. Daka, Vardy and Nacho all as central strikers, maddison and Youri as #8s with Ndidi doing nothing but protecting the back four. Two central defenders and two fullbacks providing width.... A massive gamble defensively but it works a treat on Football manager so it MUST work.

 

Seriously though, barring Maddison I think it's worth a shot. We would maybe need a KDH or a Soumare type player to offer balance as Mads might be a little two forward thinking. 

 

4 minutes ago, The_77 said:

You need at least two of those players to be willing to do the hard defensive work required of attacking players. Look at season’s PSG’s problems when they go up against any decent side. You can’t expect to win those games against good sides when you have three players with no defensive responsibilities, even if their names are Messi, Neymar and Mbappe. 

Doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be fun to see one time— maybe for the last game of the season when we have Champions League in the bag.  😉

[CloudFox]

1 hour ago, cityfanlee23 said:

I kind of feel that with Castagne, his "form" is more based around the squad, he's not an individual genius kind of player, he excels when he's giving options to others and creating those moments for others

A very good point. He's often one of our best creative outlets down the right with his overlapping runs, much as Ricardo used to be. At the moment he's not helped by the defensive difficulties we're having at the moment, as this means we're overcautious and players are taking less risks. Case in point is the number of times Maddison was occupying pockets and players weren't passing to him, choosing safer options instead. If players such as Soumaré, Wilf and our CBs are a bit more willing to make that risky pass into creators like Maddison, Castagne can then overlap to open up space down the right. That stretches play, gives others more space...etc etc.

 

I think as others have suggested, the big tactical issue at the moment is Wilf being too far forward. Drop him back and I think confidence improves. And then others like Castagne should improve too.

 

37 minutes ago, eblair said:

thought he's been our best player this year tbh; didnt look great yday but that might have something to do with dislocating his shoulder during the game

Not sure I'd say he was our best player, but I agree, he did drop off a bit after his shoulder got caught, which is understandable. I didn't see how that happened though. Seemed to happen after a run up the right wing?

[Guest Chocolate Teapot]

6 hours ago, Izzy said:

New chant?

Who runs the club?

VARDZ

 

(To the tune of girls by Beyonce)

[HoustonFox]

6 hours ago, volpeazzurro said:

That was there, this is here. Serie A is night and day with the Premiership. It's far slower, less physical and more tactical. Whatever his attributes there that you claim he had have not transported here with him, it's chalk and cheese. He's not too bad as a wing back against poor opposition here but although adequate cover as left fullback he's piss poor as a left wing back when asked to do it here as he was at centre half. 

 

He's covered left back for Belgium too but only I think about 3 times out of around 19 appearances. By his own mouth in interview, one of the things he didn't like at Atalanta was being required to play on the left. 

He’s actually played well as LWB and RWB for Belgium and in the Champs league, as well as Serie A. I agree he’s not super skilful and is more of an all round wing back (plus he has the energy as well). Ricky P is a better RB than him but I think he’s a better RWB. 
 

 

[davieG]

Not so much tactics but stats, they do tell a story though.

 

https://totalfootballanalysis.com/data-analysis/premier-league-2021-22-leicester-vs-watford-post-match-data-viz-and-stats

Edited 29 November 2021 by davieG
Wrong link in original post

[NasPb]

6 minutes ago, davieG said:

Not so much tactics but stats, they do tell a story though.

 

http://sportwitness.co.uk/player-blames-claude-puel-ruining-leicester-city-spell-stalling-career/

Belongs in ex players this