Re: ‘The Southampton Two’

[Biggus]

For me it is just the Leicester 25 !

[Finnegan]

8 hours ago, An Away Move said:

This one is being repeated ad finitum too. It facile to even think that so why are so many bleating it? Our scouting team obviously got them in based on the strengths of their stats. They were the best we could get to cover until Fofana and Justin return. Maybe we could lay the blame at the rotten luck of the injuries and not these two quite so much? 

 

Picking and choosing the evidence you want to look at and then accusing someone else of being facile is a bit daft man, come on. So is accusing someone else of being too intelligent to be that reductive when he's clearly (with the greatest respect to the footballing skills of Baby Flair) using hyperbole for casual humour. 

 

You've just literally watched a game where our defence collapsed in the exact spaces these two are supposed to be covering immediately after they're brought on. I mean, EastEnders couldn't write a script that obvious. Winger that's barely bothered Thomas loses Bertrand, who's daydreaming, crosses it in to where Vestergaard should be and a forward in acres gets a tap in. 

 

It reminded me of the Villa game last year when we're looking solid but unspectacular, cruising for a goalless draw and on comes Hamza off the bench to replace Mendy in the holding role. You could see the future up in the stars immediately. Off he runs up the pitch pressing the ball and neglecting his space, boom, minutes later Barkley strolls casually through the midfield unchecked and pops one in. 

 

I mean, for what it's worth, the post of mine you literally just quoted is agreeing with large parts of what you're saying. Bertrand was a free transfer to provide some cover because three full backs started the year injured. Vestergaard was a short notice emergency signing because Fofana broke a leg in a friendly, you can't forecast for that. 

 

I'm pretty philosophical about them both as transfers and accept we probably didn't have a wealth of choice on the kind of budget we found them for. 

 

But Ric is right, their poor form didn't just start when they arrived because they need bedding in. They've been poor for a few seasons. 

 

Again, I can't stress this enough, none of this qualifies them for abuse. At all. But balanced criticism? This is literally the venue for that. I appreciate there's a very vocal minority that take it too far, we laugh and joke and dismiss that as "just foxestalk" because ultimately, at the end of the day, most of us have given up expecting it to be any different. But a lot of the complaints about "The Southampton Two" aren't that. They're justified concern and if people can't express that here then what's the point? 

[Guest ttfn]

8 hours ago, Captain... said:

The question for me re: Vestergard is how many times has he played with Evans? Hardly played at all. We all know Soyuncu without Evans is half the defender he is alongside JE. CS doesn't lead the defence in Evans' absence. Not only is Vestergard trying to fit into a new team with no preseason he is doing so without it's defensive leader alongside Cags who always plays worse without Evans. I won't write Vestergard off until I see him play a few more games with Evans either in a back 3 or back 4. His distribution could be key to unlocking stubborn defences but he needs time to get that defensive understanding. We've had a very unsettled defensive unit all season with injuries to full backs centre backs and defensive midfielders meaning we've been chopping and changing a lot with a busy schedule. 

Vestergaard is a 29 year old who has played in the Champions League and 30 times for Denmark. He should not need Jonny Evans next to him to make him look like a competent top flight centre back.

 

Thats not to say I agree with the criticism (I thought he had a great game against Man City that seems to have been forgotten) but the whole reason we signed him was to be a “plug-and-play” fix for our injury crisis at the start of the season. If we wanted somebody with potential who needed their hand holding then clearly we signed the wrong player.

[Finnegan]

7 minutes ago, ttfn said:

Vestergaard is a 29 year old who has played in the Champions League and 30 times for Denmark. He should not need Jonny Evans next to him to make him look like a competent top flight centre back.

 

Thats not to say I agree with the criticism (I thought he had a great game against Man City that seems to have been forgotten) but the whole reason we signed him was to be a “plug-and-play” fix for our injury crisis at the start of the season. If we wanted somebody with potential who needed their hand holding then clearly we signed the wrong player.

 

He reminds me of one of these modern sweeper keepers that's lauded for their skills on the ball but is hugely underwhelming as an actual shot stopper. 

 

His pass completion stats must be great, I imagine his numbers for progressing the ball are decent too, he picks a fantastic vertical pass between the lines. 

 

I can understand why he'd look statistically noteworthy to a team that wants to build from the back. Centre backs that are decent on the ball are the foundation of a solid possession system and he definitely fits the bill in that regard. He plays a bit like a defensive midfielder that somewhere along the line a coach decided was too tall NOT to be a centre back. 

 

But he also seems to have that absolutely fatal combination of poor awareness mixed with slug speed. While guys like Soyuncu, Fofana or JJ can afford to have a brain fart and are quick enough to recover, if Vestergaard misses a step he's absolutely done. He's got to be pretty much perfect defensively or he's caught out because he can't get back. 

 

This is compounded because the exact same system that benefits from his passing range and technical ability is also one that necessitates the high line that makes him such a liability. Its the John Stones conundrum, only Stones is objectively better. 

[AKCJ]

Personally think people either don't realise or don't appreciate that they were bought to be cover, even while there is a 1st teamer out injured.

 

Vestergard is currently the 4th choice centre half that is fit and ready. 5th choice when Fofana is back.

 

Bertrand is currently 2nd/3rd choice left back that is fit and ready (depending on how you see Thomas). He's 3rd/4th choice when Justin is back.

[An Away Move]

9 hours ago, Mr Weller said:

Everyone is entitled to their opinion  but calling critics of the two saints ‘intellectually lazy’ is, well, erm... intellectually lazy, or ad hominem ie attacking the person not the argument.

 

To focus on the argument instead, either it was a pure coincidence the moment these two were dropped our results improved, or it wasn’t. I know which I think is more likely.

 

Eventually, of course, you may be right and they get better, but right now, I think they’ve been poor, and we have looked better without them. Some people may express this view in more colourful terms but the point remains the same.

Ok. Let’s look at the argument. Blaming our drop off on them and not the devastating injury to Fofana and how much that changed everything seems to be a poor one IMO. 
Not only do we miss his speed and great defending - we miss Fofana’s drive and link into midfield. And then the small matter of Evans being out too. Scapegoating Vestergaard and all the negative energy that comes with it just makes an understandably jittery defence more twitchy. 

[eblair]

9 hours ago, Captain... said:

The question for me re: Vestergard is how many times has he played with Evans? Hardly played at all. We all know Soyuncu without Evans is half the defender he is alongside JE. CS doesn't lead the defence in Evans' absence. Not only is Vestergard trying to fit into a new team with no preseason he is doing so without it's defensive leader alongside Cags who always plays worse without Evans. I won't write Vestergard off until I see him play a few more games with Evans either in a back 3 or back 4. His distribution could be key to unlocking stubborn defences but he needs time to get that defensive understanding. We've had a very unsettled defensive unit all season with injuries to full backs centre backs and defensive midfielders meaning we've been chopping and changing a lot with a busy schedule. 

fair point but i always assumed he was signed as cover for evans; but suppose we actually signed him after fofana got injured

 

but...... dont see how he can ever be the aggressive defender in a partnership 

[eblair]

31 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

Personally think people either don't realise or don't appreciate that they were bought to be cover, even while there is a 1st teamer out injured.

 

Vestergard is currently the 4th choice centre half that is fit and ready. 5th choice when Fofana is back.

 

Bertrand is currently 2nd/3rd choice left back that is fit and ready (depending on how you see Thomas). He's 3rd/4th choice when Justin is back.

i know football inflation is a bit mad; vestegaard is to my knowledge the 2nd most expensive cb in the history of the club - we should expect better

 

jonathan tah and tarkowski were the other options

[An Away Move]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

 

Picking and choosing the evidence you want to look at and then accusing someone else of being facile is a bit daft man, come on. So is accusing someone else of being too intelligent to be that reductive when he's clearly (with the greatest respect to the footballing skills of Baby Flair) using hyperbole for casual humour. 

 

You've just literally watched a game where our defence collapsed in the exact spaces these two are supposed to be covering immediately after they're brought on. I mean, EastEnders couldn't write a script that obvious. Winger that's barely bothered Thomas loses Bertrand, who's daydreaming, crosses it in to where Vestergaard should be and a forward in acres gets a tap in. 

 

It reminded me of the Villa game last year when we're looking solid but unspectacular, cruising for a goalless draw and on comes Hamza off the bench to replace Mendy in the holding role. You could see the future up in the stars immediately. Off he runs up the pitch pressing the ball and neglecting his space, boom, minutes later Barkley strolls casually through the midfield unchecked and pops one in. 

 

I mean, for what it's worth, the post of mine you literally just quoted is agreeing with large parts of what you're saying. Bertrand was a free transfer to provide some cover because three full backs started the year injured. Vestergaard was a short notice emergency signing because Fofana broke a leg in a friendly, you can't forecast for that. 

 

I'm pretty philosophical about them both as transfers and accept we probably didn't have a wealth of choice on the kind of budget we found them for. 

 

But Ric is right, their poor form didn't just start when they arrived because they need bedding in. They've been poor for a few seasons. 

 

Again, I can't stress this enough, none of this qualifies them for abuse. At all. But balanced criticism? This is literally the venue for that. I appreciate there's a very vocal minority that take it too far, we laugh and joke and dismiss that as "just foxestalk" because ultimately, at the end of the day, most of us have given up expecting it to be any different. But a lot of the complaints about "The Southampton Two" aren't that. They're justified concern and if people can't express that here then what's the point? 

Great post. It’s the lack of balance from some others that gets me going. If it were the playground Vestergaard would be the bullied one. Yes, some of his performances have not been great but he’s had no preseason with us and has been flung in to cover one of world footballs best prospects. He’s had a very difficult job and that position affects the dynamic of the whole team. Soyuncu turning into a bomb scare hasn’t helped. 

[leicester4life]

10 hours ago, Finnegan said:

Eh. It's pretty baffling that we stuck nine past a team, then watched someone else do the same thing the subsequent season, then went "yeah we should buy half of their defence."

 

Booing and hassling players on match day is absolutely vile and shouldn't happen, likewise abusing them on social media. 

 

But this is a pretty fair platform to express what's got to be clear discontent at a couple of extremely disappointing signings. Obviously, paying pennies for the two of them allowed us to sign Daka and Soumaré who look like fantastic purchases, so it's all swings and roundabouts. 

 

But first impressions don't look like two good players that just need time to settle, they look like two substandard players that'll be out of the side as soon as Fofana and JJ come back. 

 

Would be the case but didn't we pay 15 million for Vestergaard?

[fox_up_north]

Were we limited in our options as to who we could sign? Absolutely. 

Are they the best we could have got? Probably not. 

 

I genuinely don't understand what Benko has to do to get a look in. 

[Mike Oxlong]

On the edge of our box in the lead up to their third goal Vestergaard gets absolutely done by their player. He goes in to win the ball and after it’s been nicked past him has about as much awareness of where it is as me when I’m doing a Spot the Ball competition 

 

Defenders make mistakes which become more glaring when they lead to goals but I’m hoping for a big improvement from him on performances so far 

[moore_94]

15 minutes ago, eblair said:

i know football inflation is a bit mad; vestegaard is to my knowledge the 2nd most expensive cb in the history of the club - we should expect better

 

jonathan tah and tarkowski were the other options

Tah and Tarkowski would have also cost twice as much, money we didn’t have

[RoboFox]

I always think "get behind the team" sentiments on here are weird. It's a forum for discussion, we're not hurling abuse at them from the stands.

 

Bit of a cynical clout grab, this. 

 

Vestergaard has been woeful, Bertrand has been average - we're allowed to state the obvious.

 

 

[eblair]

2 minutes ago, moore_94 said:

Tah and Tarkowski would have also cost twice as much, money we didn’t have

really tarkowski is in his final year of contract?

[Babylon]

2 minutes ago, eblair said:

really tarkowski is in his final year of contract?

Burnley have made it pretty clear the last few years they would rather run his contract down than let him go cheap. Odd tactic, but there you go. 

[Ric Flair]

This narrative that they were brought in as squad players and are playing more than they would if everyone's fit is a pretty pointless statement. Bit part squad players need to at the very least get the basics right otherwise what's the point of them? Nearly every game Vestergaard has played for us, whether from the start or a short cameo he's been an absolute liability. So squad player or not, I don't see what benefit to him? If that's the benchmark for a squad player I'd rather play with 10 men.

[AKCJ]

4 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

This narrative that they were brought in as squad players and are playing more than they would if everyone's fit is a pretty pointless statement. Bit part squad players need to at the very least get the basics right otherwise what's the point of them? Nearly every game Vestergaard has played for us, whether from the start or a short cameo he's been an absolute liability. So squad player or not, I don't see what benefit to him? If that's the benchmark for a squad player I'd rather play with 10 men.

We're not Man City mate. We can't attract top class players to sit on the bench/in the stands waiting for injuries/suspensions.

 

I don't know what you expect from players like those? They're essentially replacements for Fuchs and Morgan.

Edited 21 October 2021 by AKCJ

[Jimbo]

Believe me, I hate it when a player becomes a scapegoat. Perez is prime example of this, in my opinion. Doesn’t matter what the lad does, people will always focus in on the negative.

 

But I don't see criticism of Vestergaard as making him a scapegoat goat. He's literally done nothing positive so far. 

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't need to read through every comment made about him since his signing to know that there will be over reactions, there always is, but maybe in this case the over reactions aren't as bad as they usually would be. 

 

He's not been helped by Soyuncu being more than shakey in the early part of this season, and that still appears to be happening. You can't, of course, compare him to Fofana either. The loss of Fofana is what seems to be hurting us most right now. Vestergaard is still relatively new to the team, hasn't really been part of a settled defence yet, maybe he can improve.

 

Having said all of that though, so far, he's been poor. There's no getting away from that and that isn't making him a scapegoat. He's weak, slow and his reading of the game is very bad. Moscow's goal last night after he came on is very typical of what we've seen of him so far.

The only positive so far is that he seems decent in possession, but that's when we've been allowed to have the ball in our slow and lumbered build up play.

 

So, pretty much what saints fans said when we signed him

[Babylon]

10 hours ago, Tielemans63 said:

I'll be really honest, my natural inclination is to support players and I thought people saying this when they signed were talking out of their anus holes but, now they've played more games, I'm beginning to wonder if those fans had a point. I still think Bertrand is decent, he looked good before he got Covid and I still think he'll prove a decent buy but Vestergaard just doesn't look up to it. Again, I criticised others for getting on to him in just his first few performances but the more I see of him, I have to call it as I see it, he's looked surprisingly weak for such a big guy and just seems so ill-suited to a side like our's. 

 

However, as I said in the Vestergaard thread, I really hope it's just a confidence thing and that we will soon see a much better player playing for us but right now I think the criticism is justified, he looks a liability every time he steps onto the field. I feel for him because I think he must surely be better than what we've seen so far.

 

 

I mean they might be crap, but I'm not sure the point stands they had 9 players in one game, Vest' didn't even play against Man U. And Bertrand got sent off in our game, meaning obviously they had 10 men and he missed the drubbing. 

 

When you are down to 10 it's critical the team defends as a unit and everyone puts in a shift. It's as much down to their midfielders not providing cover as much as it is the defenders. One man isn't at fault for the entire teams failings. 

[Babylon]

1 hour ago, ttfn said:

Vestergaard is a 29 year old who has played in the Champions League and 30 times for Denmark. He should not need Jonny Evans next to him to make him look like a competent top flight centre back.

Neither should Soyuncu, but he's been pretty poor without him. And pretty poor with him last night. 

[MarriedaLeicesterGirl]

52 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

Personally think people either don't realise or don't appreciate that they were bought to be cover, even while there is a 1st teamer out injured.

 

Vestergard is currently the 4th choice centre half that is fit and ready. 5th choice when Fofana is back.

 

Bertrand is currently 2nd/3rd choice left back that is fit and ready (depending on how you see Thomas). He's 3rd/4th choice when Justin is back.

I agree, but let's add they were also bought because we lost a lot of PL experience with the loss of Morgan and Fuchs. And pre-season seemed to show that Bertrand was set to start (of course, this was due to various injuries) and he looked really, really good. No one know WTF happened there (COVID? Injured himself playing in his money room? Vodka and skittles?)

 

But I can't believe that they can bring what is needed from a changing room's "experienced heads" if they can't put in a shift. Right now, if the club wants to regularly push for Europe/trophies, it's impossible to carry players, and it is feels awful when we sign experienced PL players that aren't up to snuff (I think fans are more forgiving of those from foreign leagues or younger players not working out -- they will always be more of a gamble).

 

That being said, Bertrand looked much better in preseason, and Vesty needs to be utilized better (he's not a like-for-life for Fofana, that's for sure), and I haven't written either of them off yet.

[Finnegan]

19 minutes ago, An Away Move said:

It’s the lack of balance from some others that gets me going.

 

Yeah it's best to just roll your eyes at it and move on. 

 

For as long as this place has existed there's been an ever increasing trend of entrenched extremes. 

 

I've bemoaned this no end of times and it's like pissing in the wind tbh. Pick a player in the squad and chances are that they've been both cruelly, unreasonably scapegoated and fanatically, blindly defended by two opposing groups at the same time. 

 

It's worth reminding yourself that just because they're vocal it doesn't make them the majority. 

 

As a caveat, I would also say that match days and match threads in particular are obviously going to be full of very reactionary, emotional people blowing off steam and that's something we should probably encourage. It can make match threads superficially quite toxic and intolerable if you choose to be angered by it (and advise trying to see the humour in it where possible) but you need to remember that these are highly invested people on an emotional roller-coaster. 

 

We're meant to love this club, we're meant to care passionately, we're some of the most obsessed Leicester fans in the world gathered here. We have millions of posts between us sharing our collective thoughts about the club day and night. This sort of fanaticism is celebrated when it's more harmless (such as twenty five brave souls travelling the width of the continent to go watch the game) but its derided when they get a bit too pent up in a match thread. 

 

End of the day, I'd rather people be in here venting their frustrations to fellow foxestalkers by swearing about every player in the squad than actually going out in to the real world and taking out their anger on the people around them. And if that seems like hyperbole, there's plenty of DV and ASB statistics related to the football being on the telly. 

[Ric Flair]

4 minutes ago, AKCJ said:

We're not Man City mate. We can't attract top class players to sit on the bench/in the stands waiting for injuries/suspensions.

 

I don't know what you expect from players like those? They're essentially replacements for Fuchs and Morgan.

I'll repeat, I expect my squad players to come in and not gift goals left, right and centre. If that's the benchmark of a squad player for a team that finished 5th 2 seasons on the bounce and the current FA Cup winners then I'm perturbed. He isn't fit to lace Morgan or Fuchs boots. Don't recall either of them gifting the opposition a goal every time they came in, under Rodgers they would be out in the wilderness for months and then step in and be dependable. Maybe Bertrand and Vestergaard will do the same but it's not looking likely.

[Guest ttfn]

1 minute ago, Babylon said:

Neither should Soyuncu, but he's been pretty poor without him. And pretty poor with him last night. 

100% right. It’s not an excuse for Soyuncu and it’s not an excuse for Vestergaard. They’ve both been as bad as each other this season. 
 

If our entire defensive stability is built on a 33 year old with a chronic foot injury we’ve probably got bigger issues than if the individuals partnering him are good enough.