Will Alves

[coolhandfox]

2 hours ago, Pliskin said:

I didn’t think Barnes was ready, or KDH, and I definitely didn’t think Mcateer was on the radar. Alves and Braybrook have that as fifa says “special something” about them. The both of them are ready to be included into the first team. 

Massive difference.

 

Barnes had 70 apps under his belt from loans at MK Don's, Barnsley and West Brom.

 

KDH had 49 apps form loans at Blackpool and Luton.

 

Both had shown they were good championship players.

 

Even Macteer had 27 app from loans at Forest Green and Wimbledon.

 

Braybrooke and Alves have 31 seniors minutes between.

 

I'm not doubting there ability long term, more their readiness.

 

People are over hyping the impact they can have this season.

 

 

[Rossiter]

11 hours ago, Phenom said:

Alves and Nelson should have played way more than they did. Baybrooke, too.

Why? Promotion = job done with the players selected.

[Richard]

7 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Massive difference.

 

Barnes had 70 apps under his belt from loans at MK Don's, Barnsley and West Brom.

 

KDH had 49 apps form loans at Blackpool and Luton.

 

Both had shown they were good championship players.

 

Even Macteer had 27 app from loans at Forest Green and Wimbledon.

 

Braybrooke and Alves have 31 seniors minutes between.

 

I'm not doubting there ability long term, more their readiness.

 

People are over hyping the impact they can have this season.

 

 

Yes Barnes was 22 and KDH was 23 when they made it to our first team. Alves and Braybrooke are 19

[Ric Flair]

10 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

Massive difference.

 

Barnes had 70 apps under his belt from loans at MK Don's, Barnsley and West Brom.

 

KDH had 49 apps form loans at Blackpool and Luton.

 

Both had shown they were good championship players.

 

Even Macteer had 27 app from loans at Forest Green and Wimbledon.

 

Braybrooke and Alves have 31 seniors minutes between.

 

I'm not doubting there ability long term, more their readiness.

 

People are over hyping the impact they can have this season.

 

 

Luke Thomas was arguably better with less 1st team football under his belt. Di not underestimate the fearlessness of youth.

[Chelmofox]

10 minutes ago, Rossiter said:

Why? Promotion = job done with the players selected.

Don't think the poster is really informed on what Alves / Braybrooke went through this year.  The majority of the season was for their physical recovery, and i am sure the mental side of having to deal with the layoff also had to be a consideration. They've then had to be reintroduced to light training the then back into the full training and being able to work with the squad. As you saw with Alves, he had a secondary injury after being reintroduced to the U21 which is something that is very common after returning from an ACL.

 

It would have been lovely to have seen a cameo or 2 from them, but their recovery was the most important thing. 

 

People can chuck many things at Enzo if they like, but this isn't one of them. Get them in early preseason and get then both ready and hungry to succeed. 

Edited 8 June 2024 by Chelmofox

[JimJams]

If they're good enough, they're old enough, as the old adage goes.

 

 

[st albans fox]

Anyone thinking Chelsea might come sniffing ?

 

enzo does not have a say with the identification of players but alves would be cheap and fits their policy of buying young promising talent. 

[coolhandfox]

25 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Luke Thomas was arguably better with less 1st team football under his belt. Di not underestimate the fearlessness of youth.

How did that work out?

 

They can be massive assets but we need to get there development right.

 

[Lesta Legend]

1 minute ago, coolhandfox said:

How did that work out?

 

They can be massive assets but we need to get there development right.

 

Who had honestly heard of Luke Thomas like they have with Alves, Will has been hyped for years and you can see why. He’s been kept around the 1st team by Enzo for a reason.  I’m sure we’ll know come July (with hopefully a new manager) where his development lies. It wouldn’t be surprising if he is kept around the 1st team. The most important thing is getting him on a long term contract as he’ll not be going out on loan if he has a year left, if that’s true. 

[Ric Flair]

8 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

How did that work out?

 

They can be massive assets but we need to get there development right.

 

It's highly debatable whether Luke Thomas's development was hindered because he didn't go on loan before he did well with us. 

 

One thing we will definitely agree on is career progression is not linear for every player. Loans for players is hugely beneficial of course because playing games enables them to master their craft. But you also have to weigh that up with the quality of coaching and standards around them. 

 

Would Alves benefit from a year with a club like Swansea with likely a drop in both players around him but coaches than being with our 1st team? The way Enzo incorporated him and Nelson last season with everything the team did but without being picked regularly will have been deliberate. It's what Pep has done, although I'm not convinced Pep is as good at bringing through academy players as is made out.

 

Anyway, I think there's a high chance we need go keep talent like Alves, Braybrooke and Nelson around as filling the 25 man squad is going to be tricky with finances the way they are. Exposing them could be a god send if they develop like many hope and expect. 

[coolhandfox]

Just now, Ric Flair said:

It's highly debatable whether Luke Thomas's development was hindered because he didn't go on loan before he did well with us. 

 

One thing we will definitely agree on is career progression is not linear for every player. Loans for players is hugely beneficial of course because playing games enables them to master their craft. But you also have to weigh that up with the quality of coaching and standards around them. 

 

Would Alves benefit from a year with a club like Swansea with likely a drop in both players around him but coaches than being with our 1st team? The way Enzo incorporated him and Nelson last season with everything the team did but without being picked regularly will have been deliberate. It's what Pep has done, although I'm not convinced Pep is as good at bringing through academy players as is made out.

 

Anyway, I think there's a high chance we need go keep talent like Alves, Braybrooke and Nelson around as filling the 25 man squad is going to be tricky with finances the way they are. Exposing them could be a god send if they develop like many hope and expect. 

100% my worry is them getting enough minutes.

 

I don't want to be at the end of the season with Alves having played 100-500 minutes when he could have played 3 or 4 times that on loan.

 

[kenny]

2 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

100% my worry is them getting enough minutes.

 

I don't want to be at the end of the season with Alves having played 100-500 minutes when he could have played 3 or 4 times that on loan.

 

We need to be braver with our good young players. 

 

Pep chicks them in at all sorts of random times to give them minutes. We don't bring ours on when we are 4-0 up with 10 minutes to go.

[Collymore]

3 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

It's highly debatable whether Luke Thomas's development was hindered because he didn't go on loan before he did well with us. 

 

One thing we will definitely agree on is career progression is not linear for every player. Loans for players is hugely beneficial of course because playing games enables them to master their craft. But you also have to weigh that up with the quality of coaching and standards around them. 

 

Would Alves benefit from a year with a club like Swansea with likely a drop in both players around him but coaches than being with our 1st team? The way Enzo incorporated him and Nelson last season with everything the team did but without being picked regularly will have been deliberate. It's what Pep has done, although I'm not convinced Pep is as good at bringing through academy players as is made out.

 

Anyway, I think there's a high chance we need go keep talent like Alves, Braybrooke and Nelson around as filling the 25 man squad is going to be tricky with finances the way they are. Exposing them could be a god send if they develop like many hope and expect. 

Yeah I think genes have a massive role to play rather than loans. if you have a look at Barnes, he started bulking out when he went to WBA and turned into an absolute specimen soon after.

 

Alves has looked like he has physically developed a lot since his injury - we know he has the talent in abundance. 

 

Thomas hasn't really developed physically at all and still has the same body he did as a teenager. 

 

I know it's not always as simple as this but how they grow from 16 to 21 is massive. You see it so much at an earlier age - kids bossing leagues because they have physically grown a lot for their age. A few years later they don't play anymore when it becomes at level playing field. 

 

 

[Mark]

6 minutes ago, kenny said:

Pep chicks them in at all sorts of random times to give them minutes. We don't bring ours on when we are 4-0 up with 10 minutes to go.

Final game of the season was it for me, won the league nothing to play for but none of them made the bench. Iheanacho and Praet there who were leaving and offered nothing for years, Coady who'd barely played all season. Maresca included Alves towards the end of the season in the celebrations etc but he's still not given him a single minute on the pitch.

[davieG]

11 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

100% my worry is them getting enough minutes.

 

I don't want to be at the end of the season with Alves having played 100-500 minutes when he could have played 3 or 4 times that on loan.

 

You can rarely guarantee enough minutes with loans, we seem to have had many recently that just haven't played enough.

5 minutes ago, Collymore said:

Yeah I think genes have a massive role to play rather than loans. if you have a look at Barnes, he started bulking out when he went to WBA and turned into an absolute specimen soon after.

 

Alves has looked like he has physically developed a lot since his injury - we know he has the talent in abundance. 

 

Thomas hasn't really developed physically at all and still has the same body he did as a teenager. 

 

I know it's not always as simple as this but how they grow from 16 to 21 is massive. You see it so much at an earlier age - kids bossing leagues because they have physically grown a lot for their age. A few years later they don't play anymore when it becomes at level playing field. 

 

 

Yeah when I was recruiting 16yr old apprentices I physically looked down on many of them, returning after a year at a training centre many towered over me, it was frightening how much they'd grown in less than a year.

[Tommy Fresh]

34 minutes ago, coolhandfox said:

How did that work out?

 

They can be massive assets but we need to get there development right.

 

No point loaning them out for the sake of it, there's also plenty of folk who have done well without them

[Ric Flair]

38 minutes ago, Mark said:

Final game of the season was it for me, won the league nothing to play for but none of them made the bench. Iheanacho and Praet there who were leaving and offered nothing for years, Coady who'd barely played all season. Maresca included Alves towards the end of the season in the celebrations etc but he's still not given him a single minute on the pitch.

Absolutely baffling from him. He used Nelson in a few games where there was something massively riding on us needing a result and he showed the confidence to pick him over Coady. Then we wrap up promotion and he ignores them, such a weirdo.

[JimJams]

1 hour ago, coolhandfox said:

I don't want to be at the end of the season with Alves having played 100-500 minutes when he could have played 3 or 4 times that on loan.

Interesting, but what do you think is more valuable. 100-500 minutes of Premier league football in which he performs well (assumption of course) under whoever we have in charge, or 3-4 times as many minutes at a lower level at a different club?

 

 

[JimJams]

31 minutes ago, Ric Flair said:

Absolutely baffling from him. He used Nelson in a few games where there was something massively riding on us needing a result and he showed the confidence to pick him over Coady. Then we wrap up promotion and he ignores them, such a weirdo.

He was injured wasn't he? Wasn't in the later squads.

[James_lcfc]

30 minutes ago, JimJams said:

Interesting, but what do you think is more valuable. 100-500 minutes of Premier league football in which he performs well (assumption of course) under whoever we have in charge, or 3-4 times as many minutes at a lower level at a different club?

 

 

I think 30-40 games in a top 6 Championship team would be unbelievable for his development.

 

Much better than a few sub appearances for a PL relegation scrapper like we’re going to be anyway.

 

If he’s ready to play a lot of games for us this year, then fair enough, but surely he needs to be playing a decent amount of senior football this year?

[Ric Flair]

1 hour ago, JimJams said:

He was injured wasn't he? Wasn't in the later squads.

Who Nelson or Alves? Both were out for a small period but were available vs Blackburn for example.

[Jimbo]

27 minutes ago, James_lcfc said:

I think 30-40 games in a top 6 Championship team would be unbelievable for his development.

 

Much better than a few sub appearances for a PL relegation scrapper like we’re going to be anyway.

 

If he’s ready to play a lot of games for us this year, then fair enough, but surely he needs to be playing a decent amount of senior football this year?

Loans aren't always the way forward.

 

I would think a huge part of whether or not a player goes out on loan is down to his personality. Is he a creature of habit who is settled in his surroundings? Will he react well to new surroundings? 

 

Playing a lot of games can only improve their physical performance, the psychology behind it is a completely different matter. 

 

Being involved in match day squads in the premier league and getting 500 minutes could actually be better for a player then playing 40 games out on loan 

[coolhandfox]

1 hour ago, JimJams said:

Interesting, but what do you think is more valuable. 100-500 minutes of Premier league football in which he performs well (assumption of course) under whoever we have in charge, or 3-4 times as many minutes at a lower level at a different club?

 

 

I think playing regularly build confidence, score goals and get assist is the most important thing for a attacking player especially during the transition from u21 to senior football.

 

Barnes time at West Brom were he scored 9 goals and 7 assists in 26 games gave him a lot of confidence and made he's transition to the first 11 in the PL a lot easier in my view.

 

Is a harder one to call.

 

 

[FoxInTheBirstallBox]

3 hours ago, Ric Flair said:

Luke Thomas was arguably better with less 1st team football under his belt. Di not underestimate the fearlessness of youth.

His first season was awesome, that man u goal 

[FosseSpark]

I don't think we have the luxury of loaning Alves and Braybrooke out if they are in the England u20 team with Nelson. Means they are right up there in terms of quality players at 19/20.

 

With Dewsbury-Hall ready to go I think having Alves around to play inside left  or inside right no 8 will be key.