Wortho Posted 12 October 2023 Posted 12 October 2023 12 minutes ago, MPH said: Definitely read a book called Son of Hamas if you get a chance. It’s about the son of one of Hamas’s founding members turning on them because he was so disgusted with how they treated their own people. I’ll try and find that 👍thanks for the suggestion.
leicsmac Posted 12 October 2023 Posted 12 October 2023 2 minutes ago, Wortho said: So do you think Hamas/ISIS have looked after their people, or have they left them to die? I think both parties - the one that leaves an innocent in danger and the one that actually takes their life, intentional or not - have an element of responsibility, and I think that's an obvious answer tbh.
breadandcheese Posted 12 October 2023 Posted 12 October 2023 8 minutes ago, leicsmac said: To repeat an earlier point here because I think it's still relevant: If person A is left deliberately by person B where they can be harmed by person C, and then person C actually pulls the trigger - who is mostly responsible for the harm inflicted on person A? The person who set up the situation, or the person who actually carried out the act? Or both? I'm sorry but that denies agency to the people who did it. The tweet below sums it up for me. https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1711059623426363442?t=s2yQLlVe9sP0uNN-0na0Iw&s=19https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1711059623426363442?t=s2yQLlVe9sP0uNN-0na0Iw&s=19
leicsmac Posted 12 October 2023 Posted 12 October 2023 1 minute ago, breadandcheese said: I'm sorry but that denies agency to the people who did it. The tweet below sums it up for me. https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1711059623426363442?t=s2yQLlVe9sP0uNN-0na0Iw&s=19https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1711059623426363442?t=s2yQLlVe9sP0uNN-0na0Iw&s=19 And that is pretty obvious too I think (there can be no excuses for what has been done recently), but begging pardon, that's not the exact topic of conversation here. The topic was about the citizens of Gaza and whether or not their plight and death and suffering is the fault of Hamas or the Israeli military. I don't see how it cannot be a bit of both.
breadandcheese Posted 12 October 2023 Posted 12 October 2023 1 minute ago, leicsmac said: And that is pretty obvious too I think (there can be no excuses for what has been done recently), but begging pardon, that's not the exact topic of conversation here. The topic was about the citizens of Gaza and whether or not their plight and death and suffering is the fault of Hamas or the Israeli military. I don't see how it cannot be a bit of both. In which case then that's on me, I misunderstood and thought you were referring to Saturday's terrorist attack. Apologies. In terms of the plight of the citizens Gaza, it can only be both, with a sidearm of Egyptian help. 1
Mickyblueeyes Posted 12 October 2023 Posted 12 October 2023 This video of the devastation in Gaza is horrendous. Not sharing this for any other reason except for the realisation that this is someone’s reality at the moment. 3 1
SpacedX Posted 12 October 2023 Posted 12 October 2023 31 minutes ago, leicsmac said: And that is pretty obvious too I think (there can be no excuses for what has been done recently), but begging pardon, that's not the exact topic of conversation here. The topic was about the citizens of Gaza and whether or not their plight and death and suffering is the fault of Hamas or the Israeli military. I don't see how it cannot be a bit of both.
Wortho Posted 12 October 2023 Posted 12 October 2023 Another thing is the BBC still saying that Hamas are militants. They are proscribed as a terrorist group. But the BBC are describing them like they are a union out on strike, not a barbaric terrorist organisation. 1
leicsmac Posted 12 October 2023 Posted 12 October 2023 2 minutes ago, Wortho said: Another thing is the BBC still saying that Hamas are militants. They are proscribed as a terrorist group. But the BBC are describing them like they are a union out on strike, not a barbaric terrorist organisation. The BBC can say they're proscibed as a terrorist group. That is objective. The BBC cannot themselves label them terrorists because, as obvious as it may be, that is still subjective and would be a violation of the neutral reporting they are chartered to do (however successful or not it appears to be). It's not up to an impartial news agency to pick sides during a war. It's up to them to report events, nothing more.
MPH Posted 12 October 2023 Author Posted 12 October 2023 1 hour ago, leicsmac said: To repeat an earlier point here because I think it's still relevant: If person A is left deliberately by person B where they can be harmed by person C, and then person C actually pulls the trigger - who is mostly responsible for the harm inflicted on person A? The person who set up the situation, or the person who actually carried out the act? Or both? Please don't take my comment as insinuating that The Israelis are void of blame for any humanitarian concerns - just re-emphasizing that Hamas are a brutal regime. 1
Scotch Posted 12 October 2023 Posted 12 October 2023 One thing I can't wrap my head around is the reasoning for Hamas' recent actions. Until the recent atrocities, the general public opinion of support was with the Palestinian people and in association, with Hamas. The recent violence has not only changed that but brought on horrendous retaliatory violence to their people which will lose them support, not least with people worldwide but people who elected them and for what? They won't win a war with Israel... So why? I don't get it.
MPH Posted 12 October 2023 Author Posted 12 October 2023 (edited) 13 minutes ago, leicsmac said: The BBC can say they're proscibed as a terrorist group. That is objective. The BBC cannot themselves label them terrorists because, as obvious as it may be, that is still subjective and would be a violation of the neutral reporting they are chartered to do (however successful or not it appears to be). It's not up to an impartial news agency to pick sides during a war. It's up to them to report events, nothing more. Many Western countries and their allies have designated Hamas as a terrorist organization, I don't think the BBS are being objective. Just using legitimate appropriate terminology afforded to them by the countries who have designated Hamas as so. Edited 12 October 2023 by MPH
leicsmac Posted 12 October 2023 Posted 12 October 2023 Just now, MPH said: Many Western countries and their allies have designated Hamas as a terrorist organization, I don't think the BBS are being objective. Just using legitimate appropriate terminology afforded to them by the countries who have designated Hamas as so. Right. Just to clarify, I mean that the BBC can say that the Western countries and their allies have proscribed Hamas as a terrorist organisation (because that's an objective fact, it's a matter of record) but cannot call them terrorists themselves (because rightly or wrongly that is a matter of opinion). 1
SecretPro Posted 12 October 2023 Posted 12 October 2023 48 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said: This video of the devastation in Gaza is horrendous. Not sharing this for any other reason except for the realisation that this is someone’s reality at the moment. Not targetting civilians though
TJQuik Posted 12 October 2023 Posted 12 October 2023 3 minutes ago, SecretPro said: Not targetting civilians though It's ok, they texted a family that they were about to blow them to pieces a few minutes before they launched the missiles. That makes it ok. 1
Jon the Hat Posted 12 October 2023 Posted 12 October 2023 1 hour ago, Mickyblueeyes said: This video of the devastation in Gaza is horrendous. Not sharing this for any other reason except for the realisation that this is someone’s reality at the moment. Stupid take though, who is going to Nuke Gaza exactly?
breadandcheese Posted 12 October 2023 Posted 12 October 2023 23 minutes ago, Scotch said: One thing I can't wrap my head around is the reasoning for Hamas' recent actions. Until the recent atrocities, the general public opinion of support was with the Palestinian people and in association, with Hamas. The recent violence has not only changed that but brought on horrendous retaliatory violence to their people which will lose them support, not least with people worldwide but people who elected them and for what? They won't win a war with Israel... So why? I don't get it. There is a belief that they can't beat Israel in war. But I don't subscribe to this. Or at least not in the way we think of winning or losing. If Hamas are still in power come the end of the horrible war, they will celebrate it as a win. And unfortunately, there is nothing to suggest they can't win a conventional war against Israel's military in Gaza or at least cause huge damage, with defensive traps and drone warfare. The dominance of heavy armour and tanks looks to have taken a dint with advances in small drones and loitering munition over the battlefield. Hamas are unfortunately a well trained militia army with some serious firepower, just like Hezbollah in Lebanon. Hamas are estimated to have 50,000 fighters. Hezbollah 100,000. To put that in context, the UK army has 112,000. So I know it always seems silly to suggest Israel will never be beaten and it's security is guaranteed but this isn't the case.
Jon the Hat Posted 12 October 2023 Posted 12 October 2023 33 minutes ago, leicsmac said: Right. Just to clarify, I mean that the BBC can say that the Western countries and their allies have proscribed Hamas as a terrorist organisation (because that's an objective fact, it's a matter of record) but cannot call them terrorists themselves (because rightly or wrongly that is a matter of opinion). It was a matter of opinion until Saturday. It is since then an absolute fact and the BBC are being ridiculous denying it. They also can and do call Israel an occupying power who are carrying out illegal acts etc. 1
Jon the Hat Posted 12 October 2023 Posted 12 October 2023 (edited) 2 minutes ago, breadandcheese said: There is a belief that they can't beat Israel in war. But I don't subscribe to this. Or at least not in the way we think of winning or losing. If Hamas are still in power come the end of the horrible war, they will celebrate it as a win. And unfortunately, there is nothing to suggest they can't win a conventional war against Israel's military in Gaza or at least cause huge damage, with defensive traps and drone warfare. The dominance of heavy armour and tanks looks to have taken a dint with advances in small drones and loitering munition over the battlefield. Hamas are unfortunately a well trained militia army with some serious firepower, just like Hezbollah in Lebanon. Hamas are estimated to have 50,000 fighters. Hezbollah 100,000. To put that in context, the UK army has 112,000. So I know it always seems silly to suggest Israel will never be beaten and it's security is guaranteed but this isn't the case. Hamas actions this week will be the end of them, whatever they thought they would achieve. They survived so far purely because Israel didn't have the political will to commit IDF lives to root them out. I think they just changed that. Edited 12 October 2023 by Jon the Hat 1
MPH Posted 12 October 2023 Author Posted 12 October 2023 1 hour ago, Mickyblueeyes said: This video of the devastation in Gaza is horrendous. Not sharing this for any other reason except for the realisation that this is someone’s reality at the moment. It Breaks my heart. It really does. And people could discuss all day long on social media who's to blame and many people throughout social media seem more preoccupied with point scoring and 'proving their point'. But @leicsmac is absolutely spot on. it can be a bit of both. My personal opinion is that The Israelis are completely justified in going after Hamas and wiping them out. What i'm upset about is that civilians are being caught up in the middle of it all. What i'm very very upset about is the cutting off of food, water and electricity as this will directly and unequivocally affect every day Civilians and Israel seem to think that's an ok part of all this. I don't believe its fair to complain that your citizens have been targeted when you go and target someone else's citizens. I know that people will point out the brutality of Hamas as a justification for it but to me, in my simple brain, it call comes under the banner of unjust suffering. And Israel lose all claims to a moral high ground now. What troubles me more is that I don't have a solution other than everyone should ' love thy Neighbor". I think its unlikely though and too far gone for that, unfortunately
leicsmac Posted 12 October 2023 Posted 12 October 2023 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said: It was a matter of opinion until Saturday. It is since then an absolute fact and the BBC are being ridiculous denying it. They also can and do call Israel an occupying power who are carrying out illegal acts etc. When you flip a coin and it will come down heads, tails or edge, that is a fact. That the Earth is approximately 90 million miles (or eight light minutes) from the Sun, that is a fact. That the Japanese government surrendered at the end of World War II on the 15th August 1945, that is also a fact and a matter of historical record. Hamas being terrorists - as opposed to being labelled as them by the Western nations - is, again rightly or wrongly, a matter of opinion. The distinction between these political observations and empirical fact is small but it is critically important, and the BBC should not be pushed into making such judgements themselves. They really also shouldn't be referring to Israel in the way you describe here either, unless they are reporting what a third party has said. Edited 12 October 2023 by leicsmac
MPH Posted 12 October 2023 Author Posted 12 October 2023 It a shame we don't have an 'agree' button rather than just a like button..
MPH Posted 12 October 2023 Author Posted 12 October 2023 Just now, leicsmac said: When you flip a coin and it comes down heads, tails or edge, that is a fact. That the Earth is approximately 90 million miles (or eight light minutes) from the Sun, that is a fact. That the Japanese government surrendered at the end of World War II on the 15th August 1945, that is also a fact and a matter of historical record. Hamas being terrorists - as opposed to being labelled as them by the Western nations - is, again rightly or wrongly, a matter of opinion. The distinction between these political observations and empirical fact is small but it is critically important, and the BBC should not be pushed into making such judgements themselves. They really also shouldn't be referring to Israel in the way you describe here either, unless they are reporting what a third party has said. Would you say that it is fact or opinion that the Sahara desert is hot?
leicsmac Posted 12 October 2023 Posted 12 October 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, MPH said: Would you say that it is fact or opinion that the Sahara desert is hot? I would say that it is hot relative to general human experience of temperature. That would be factual. Edit: To clarify, merely saying it is hot is opinion, the above would be fact because it's a matter of record. Edited 12 October 2023 by leicsmac
Wortho Posted 12 October 2023 Posted 12 October 2023 1 hour ago, leicsmac said: The BBC can say they're proscibed as a terrorist group. That is objective. The BBC cannot themselves label them terrorists because, as obvious as it may be, that is still subjective and would be a violation of the neutral reporting they are chartered to do (however successful or not it appears to be). It's not up to an impartial news agency to pick sides during a war. It's up to them to report events, nothing more. Well Starmer and Thornberry call them terrorists. In fact they agree with the Palestinians being starved and have power and water withdrawn. The Royal Family even rightly call them terrorists.
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