Israeli and Palestinian conflict

[ClaphamFox]

3 hours ago, urban.spaceman said:

Depraved. Just ****ing evil.

I can’t bring myself to view that footage that apparently exists online, but this is now being reported by numerous news organisations. Hamas has apparently been murdering babies, beheading some and burning others alive. If true, it is not surprising - Hamas is an apocalyptic, death-worshipping Muslim terror cult. Pure, undiluted evil. 

[Brizzle Fox]

9 hours ago, st albans fox said:

Over the weekend I made a point about my unease with equivalency between Hamas fighters and the IDF.  I was told that this was my problem.  

I think we should all be able to see now that there is no equivalence and anyone maintaining that there is should have a good long look at themselves 

Agree with this and the attached goes into this to a degree but is also one of the most even handed and level headed opinion pieces on the current situation I've read on the hate site that is X.

 

There are sane voices out there on both sides but unfortunately they tend to get drowned out by the myopic extremists, be they Israeli or Palestinian. 

 

 

[Daggers]

7 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

Is that it? That isn’t evidence of any such thing.  Happy to agree if there is any.

I’m not about to do your research for you. I’m pointing out you are wrong, if you’re unable to take that on board then that’s your problem.

[StanSP]

 

 

About sums it up? 

[Lionator]

2 minutes ago, StanSP said:

 

 

About sums it up? 

A rare anonymous W. 

[Mickyblueeyes]

4 minutes ago, StanSP said:

 

 

About sums it up? 

Exactly what the rest of the world should be thinking/feeling. 

[Jon the Hat]

40 minutes ago, Daggers said:

I’m not about to do your research for you. I’m pointing out you are wrong, if you’re unable to take that on board then that’s your problem.

I'll say again, there is no evidence to support the claim that the CIA funded the IRA.  It is a myth.

[st albans fox]

As has been said multiple times over the past couple of days, this is soon going to get dreadful (beyond what we’ve seen) and I dread to think of the number of civilian casualties in Gaza. Israel will struggle to cope with the number of military deaths - they are effectively sending their soldiers into a death trap. 
their call is based on the fact that with Hamas in control of Gaza, there will simply be repeating cycles of violence against Israel. they have called time on it.  does anyone have an alternative to forcibly removing the armed fighters and terrorists?  unless there is a real plan to make proper peace with the Palestinians afterwards then surely it’s a terrible waste of lives on both sides.    NATO went into Afghanistan to remove Al quaeda and were pretty much successful but two decades on we still have the taliban in control and derivatives of Al Qaeda still operating.  Without any solution to the basic problem we will return to the same position. 

 

there will be no peace plan with netenyahu’s govt.  there needs to be another GE and we need to hope that a more moderate coalition is the consequence.  Settlers were removed from Gaza in 2005 and that can happen in areas of the West Bank - there is precedent.  the events of the past few days may encourage Israelis to realise that compromise in this area is essential to drive a settlement. 

[Jon the Hat]

1 minute ago, st albans fox said:

As has been said multiple times over the past couple of days, this is soon going to get dreadful (beyond what we’ve seen) and I dread to think of the number of civilian casualties in Gaza. Israel will struggle to cope with the number of military deaths - they are effectively sending their soldiers into a death trap. 
their call is based on the fact that with Hamas in control of Gaza, there will simply be repeating cycles of violence against Israel. they have called time on it.  does anyone have an alternative to forcibly removing the armed fighters and terrorists?  unless there is a real plan to make proper peace with the Palestinians afterwards then surely it’s a terrible waste of lives on both sides.    NATO went into Afghanistan to remove Al quaeda and were pretty much successful but two decades on we still have the taliban in control and derivatives of Al Qaeda still operating.  Without any solution to the basic problem we will return to the same position. 

 

there will be no peace plan with netenyahu’s govt.  there needs to be another GE and we need to hope that a more moderate coalition is the consequence.  Settlers were removed from Gaza in 2005 and that can happen in areas of the West Bank - there is precedent.  the events of the past few days may encourage Israelis to realise that compromise in this area is essential to drive a settlement. 

Gaza is a hell of a lot smaller than Afghanistan.  

[st albans fox]

Just now, Jon the Hat said:

Gaza is a hell of a lot smaller than Afghanistan.  

I was using it as an illustration of needing a viable post war plan.  There are some loose similarities - not sure the comparable size of the two are that relevant. 

[SecretPro]

The British Printed Press mainly ran with the beheaded babies story this morning, despite many journalists and figures in Israeli authority yesterday and into the night saying that these were unconfirmed reports and the media should hold back.

 

Now the IDF saying that reports of beheaded babies cannot be confirmed.

 

The disinformation and propaganda machines on both sides running amok now.

 

The quote "The first casualty when war comes is truth" is never far wrong.

 

Needs to be much more caution on reporting on both sides of the divide as it doesn't serve anybody. Verification in Journalism should be everything, seems to have fallen by the wayside, especially in Britain and America, badly over the last decade or so.

[CosbehFox]

1 hour ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Exactly what the rest of the world should be thinking/feeling. 

Many have missed the point that Hamas have been in control of Palestine for 17 years with the people having no option to democratically oppose that. 
 

Sad to see my suggest that Israel’s media washing working. Number of Uk dailies going to front page print on an unconfirmed story and the likes of Telegraph even putting in the story ‘we can not confirm this’. 
 

world is mad 

[CosbehFox]

19 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

As has been said multiple times over the past couple of days, this is soon going to get dreadful (beyond what we’ve seen) and I dread to think of the number of civilian casualties in Gaza. Israel will struggle to cope with the number of military deaths - they are effectively sending their soldiers into a death trap. 
their call is based on the fact that with Hamas in control of Gaza, there will simply be repeating cycles of violence against Israel. they have called time on it.  does anyone have an alternative to forcibly removing the armed fighters and terrorists?  unless there is a real plan to make proper peace with the Palestinians afterwards then surely it’s a terrible waste of lives on both sides.    NATO went into Afghanistan to remove Al quaeda and were pretty much successful but two decades on we still have the taliban in control and derivatives of Al Qaeda still operating.  Without any solution to the basic problem we will return to the same position. 

 

there will be no peace plan with netenyahu’s govt.  there needs to be another GE and we need to hope that a more moderate coalition is the consequence.  Settlers were removed from Gaza in 2005 and that can happen in areas of the West Bank - there is precedent.  the events of the past few days may encourage Israelis to realise that compromise in this area is essential to drive a settlement. 

Well summed up St Albans there 

[leicsmac]

Can't say I'm massively surprised by the media misinformation, just saddened, as other people have put.

 

It's been an unwritten law pretty much since the very first war that to better destroy an enemy, first you have to dehumanise them in the eyes of everyone else who may be watching, as well as your own people.

[SecretPro]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Can't say I'm massively surprised by the media misinformation, just saddened, as other people have put.

 

It's been an unwritten law pretty much since the very first war that to better destroy an enemy, first you have to dehumanise them in the eyes of everyone else who may be watching, as well as your own people.

What happened to Journalistic integrity though, especially in this country - we used to be so good at it, now we are terrible (though I put a lot of this down to a Tory Government and Rupert Murdoch)

[CosbehFox]

15 hours ago, st albans fox said:

There’s nothing wrong with a Palestinian flag - it was a bit odd to fly it that day considering none of those boys are Palestinian !

 

13 hours ago, Raj said:

To be fair it was a very strange thing to do at the time.

 

Noticed  a few of them flying out on Evington Road and a few car flahs with "Free Palestine".

 

 

Wasn’t strange in the context of what was happening in Palestine at the time. 
 

IDF raided one of the most holiest Islamic places in the world. Four Palestine families were evicted by Israeli court. The Dance of Flags was conducted at the time in its most threatening manner to date.

 

Then the crazy cycle of violence started again with missiles from Hamas and air strikes on Gaza 

[Raj]

5 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

 

Wasn’t strange in the context of what was happening in Palestine at the time. 
 

IDF raided one of the most holiest Islamic places in the world. Four Palestine families were evicted by Israeli court. The Dance of Flags was conducted at the time in its most threatening manner to date.

 

Then the crazy cycle of violence started again with missiles from Hamas and air strikes on Gaza 

We win the FA Cup for the first time in our history and he's swanning around with a Palestinian flag!!!

 

 

[leicsmac]

19 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

What happened to Journalistic integrity though, especially in this country - we used to be so good at it, now we are terrible (though I put a lot of this down to a Tory Government and Rupert Murdoch)

I think it's no worse now than it was in history, tbh - the volume of it all has just increased.

 

William Randolph Hearst: "You furnish the pictures, I'll furnish the war."

Edited 11 October 2023 by leicsmac

[st albans fox]

25 minutes ago, CosbehFox said:

Many have missed the point that Hamas have been in control of Palestine for 17 years with the people having no option to democratically oppose that. 
 

Sad to see my suggest that Israel’s media washing working. Number of Uk dailies going to front page print on an unconfirmed story and the likes of Telegraph even putting in the story ‘we can not confirm this’. 
 

world is mad 

Hamas is not in control of the West Bank - that’s the PLA. Hamas threw the PLA out of Gaza once they had been elected and taken root.   Granted that elections in Gaza are no longer free and fair in any sense whatsoever but in 2005, the decision of the people of Gaza to deliver Hamas victory should be seen as one of the most awful illustrations of the democratic system ever.   Was there anything comparable in the period between the National socialists in Germany and that 2005 election ? 

[FoxesWalk]

Can someone who knows more than me explain why Egypt would not open its border as a humanitarian corridor/ with the help of the UN? Gaza is essentially an open air prison and hundreds of thousands of troops are primed to turn it into a war zone. ~2 million people, including ~1 million children, living in a space 25 miles long and 5 miles wide with little to no food, clean water or electricity… It is going to be catastrophic. 

Edited 11 October 2023 by FoxesWalk

[Mickyblueeyes]

IF (note if emphasised) the news reports regarding the massacre have been printed as fact and not verified than that is disgraceful. If it’s also been confirmed as true by politicians, that’s even worse (note: criticism of the press and/or politicians is no way an agenda to discredit the IDF who, at this stage seem to not have got involved).

 

I’ve also heard today that there is planned protest outside the Israeli embassy on Saturday - why? Surely this should be stopped simply for community relations. I don’t understand in this climate it surely won’t be in anyway an aid to the Palestinian cause. (note: not a criticism of the Palestinian cause but of the protestors and its organisers). 
 

Did anyone else read Suella’s letter to the police commissioners ?? Absolutely bonkers (note: this IS a criticism of the Home Secretary)

[Lionator]

What’s crazy is that we’ve had nearly 50% of the civilian deaths in 4 days as what there’s been in the Ukraine war which has been going on for 20 months. 

[Lionator]

I also don’t think US and British governments have still fully understood the level of cynicism in its population with regard to Middle East foreign policy, as a result of Iraq. 

[Zear0]

2 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

IF (note if emphasised) the news reports regarding the massacre have been printed as fact and not verified than that is disgraceful. If it’s also been confirmed as true by politicians, that’s even worse (note: criticism of the press and/or politicians is no way an agenda to discredit the IDF who, at this stage seem to not have got involved).

 

I’ve also heard today that there is planned protest outside the Israeli embassy on Saturday - why? Surely this should be stopped simply for community relations. I don’t understand in this climate it surely won’t be in anyway an aid to the Palestinian cause. (note: not a criticism of the Palestinian cause but of the protestors and its organisers). 
 

Did anyone else read Suella’s letter to the police commissioners ?? Absolutely bonkers (note: this IS a criticism of the Home Secretary)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67065205

 

Jeremy Bowen was at the scene of the masscare and saw the corpses.  

 

“Mothers, fathers, babies, young families killed in their beds, in the protection room, in the dining room, in their garden,” Maj Gen Itai Veruv of the Israel Defence Forces told the BBC, as his troops searched homes for bodies of victims. “It’s not a war, it’s not a battlefield. It’s a massacre.”

 

Direct quote from a Major General of the IDF at the scene so only way it's not true is if he and Jeremy Bowen (whom I 100% believe) are lying.  Sadly a huge amount of "Citizen Journalists " on X are casting doubt against actual journalists reporting from the scene.

[FoxesWalk]

7 minutes ago, Lionator said:

What’s crazy is that we’ve had nearly 50% of the civilian deaths in 4 days as what there’s been in the Ukraine war which has been going on for 20 months. 

That is what happens when both sides target civilians, sadly. In Ukraine at least people have the opportunity and assistance to get out for the most part, in Israel it was the speed and surprise of the attack that prevents people avoiding it, and in Gaza there is literally no way out by land or sea, you just cross your fingers the bombs and bullets don’t fall on you, but shelters and public/residential buildings are frequently destroyed by air strikes. Hamas use ordinary Palestinians as human shields essentially, and unlike Ukrainians, those innocent people have little to no western government support. 

Edited 11 October 2023 by FoxesWalk