Israeli and Palestinian conflict

[leicsmac]

13 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

I’d like to have seen the bbc news anchor ask him if he differentiates when he’s not working for the bbc. John has used ‘terrorist’ when tweeting in the past about France and the London Bridge attack (probably more).  I think he should have emphasised that whilst he believes that Hamas are terrorists, on a professional level when working for the bbc, he would not use that description for the reason stated. 

Perhaps some greater clarity in that regard would be called for.

 

However, the issue here still is folks looking to browbeat the Beeb into using that term itself to describe Hamas (and thereby violating their ideal of neutrality when it comes to such reporting) rather than reporting it as a descriptor that others have used for Hamas.

[MPH]

So those Pesky Israelis Palestinians  Iranians  Saudis Americans then eh?

 

 

[MPH]

So just watched a very interesting interview  on DW with Ehul Olmert ( former Israeli PM), who stated that right now a two state solution would not be feasible as it would likely involve Hamas on the Palestinian side.He mentioned that if Israel were successful in eliminating Hamas, they would only have to deal with the more moderate Palestinian Authority  who are more likely to be able to  push through and stick to a 2 state solution..

[Jon the Hat]

10 minutes ago, MPH said:

So just watched a very interesting interview  on DW with Ehul Olmert ( former Israeli PM), who stated that right now a two state solution would not be feasible as it would likely involve Hamas on the Palestinian side.He mentioned that if Israel were successful in eliminating Hamas, they would only have to deal with the more moderate Palestinian Authority  who are more likely to be able to  push through and stick to a 2 state solution..

It is pretty clear that Israel cannot and will not negotiate with Hamas.  No more than you could negotiate with ISIS.  Whether they can completely remove Hamas and move forward remains to be seen.

[MPH]

6 minutes ago, Jon the Hat said:

It is pretty clear that Israel cannot and will not negotiate with Hamas.  No more than you could negotiate with ISIS.  Whether they can completely remove Hamas and move forward remains to be seen.

 

 

its unfathomable for them to be able to do that..

[That_Dude]

On 10/10/2023 at 17:19, Mickyblueeyes said:

It’s also very hard now with both sides propaganda machines in full flow. It’s incredibly delicate and the world is in desperate need of a statesman/woman to come in. We’ve been lacking one for years. 

People should stop trying to inform themselves about a very serious situation from the cesspit called Twitter then. Especially the Musk version where's literally no moderation at all.

[Lionator]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12620821/invasion-Gaza-Israel-better-way-Colonel-TIM-COLLINS.html
 

This seems sensible and rational but also terrifies me about what’s to come. The author is right, Israel may invade and occupy Gaza, then what? Face multiple attacks day after day when the local population blame them for their plight while radicalising millions of other Muslims in the area. 

Edited 12 October 2023 by Lionator

[Bellend Sebastian]

I see the death toll on both sides has reached parity overnight.

 

Death, death, death, with no winners after all this time. It's such a grim mess

[Mickyblueeyes]

1 hour ago, That_Dude said:

People should stop trying to inform themselves about a very serious situation from the cesspit called Twitter then. Especially the Musk version where's literally no moderation at all.

To be fair, the mainstream haven’t been so great either. 

[st albans fox]

33 minutes ago, Bellend Sebastian said:

I see the death toll on both sides has reached parity overnight.

 

Death, death, death, with no winners after all this time. It's such a grim mess

If you’ve watched this over the past decades the; you’ll know that the death toll generally ends with at least ten times the number of Israelis dead on the Palestinian side.  The events of Saturday were so unprecedented that hopefully that won’t be the case on this occasion. but if Hamas’ tunnel labyrinth is as massive as Israel thinks then this will be a protracted land invasion rather than a few days. 

[That_Dude]

On 10/10/2023 at 19:43, st albans fox said:

Just a short question - why should Israel be expected to treat the Palestinians of Gaza better than the hamas govt that is responsible for governing that enclave? 
 

sadly the last few days is clear evidence as to why Israel controls everything that enters Gaza - all these rockets and arms got in even with these restrictions.  Imagine having an airport and port in Gaza - they would wipe Israel off the map within months.  
 

I assume you are asking about what has occurred in the West Bank - it’s not defendable. Taking land for settlements is not something that anyone outside of the right wing Israeli govt approves of.  It just highlights how big an opportunity was missed by both sides twenty years ago when a viable two state solution was on the table.   
 

we can hope that the fall out from this will see netenyahu and his rw cronies kicked out and real progress towards a peaceful settlement achieved. 

Don't worry, they don't and never have. I also find your question quite disturbing to be honest.

 

They're responsible for the rise of Hamas, which hijacked the political power after their win in 2006 and refuses since then to hold any elections, by imposing an inhumane blockade that would've been unthinkable and quickly dismantled if any other country in the world ever thought of it. They've sidelined and marginalized the moderate Palestinian Authority and there's been no attempt to move the peace process forward since the end of Ehud Olmert's mandate in 2009. When his successor Netanyahu came to power, the israeli politic has consisted in stalling and delaying any peace talk while dramatically increasing the illegal settlements. He has absolutely no interest in peace, let alone a two-state solution.

 

The restrictions blockade obliterated Gaza's economy, causing 52% of unemployement and about 68% of the households in Gaza to be food-insecure. Israel controls the power lines and access to water. The inhabitants there experience daily 17 hours of power cuts. 81% of the population lives in poverty and 10% has access to clean water (All the numbers come from the UNRWA). No one can leave Gaza without the approval of Israel and/or Egypt and it happens very rarely. There's no future or hope for the population, 65% of it being under 24 years old (high natality birth rate and low life expectancy). But yeah let's call that restrictions.

 

There's only so much despair people can take. Go on a population hard enough, make them desperate enough and they tend to revolt or turn to extremist organizations. History is littered with similar examples.

 

Just to be clear, I'm absolutely not condoning the horrible and despicable massacre that occured in Israel and think the Hamas is a blight for the Palestinians. There's no justification whatsoever for what they did. They achieved nothing since they've been elected, and what they want now is to watch the whole region burn. 

 

I've yet to see how a country with one of the best armies and intelligence agencies in the world, backed by the whole western world and the most powerful military in history (hint: the US) would be wiped out in a matter of months by a group of lunatics armed with AK 47s and unguided rockets. This ridiculous myth needs to die.

 

Gaza is going to be flattened and possibly either re-occupied or simply annexed, tens of thousands of people will die. Hundreds of thousands will flee and not allowed to come back. If the conflict doesn't become regional and when the dust settles, questions will be asked in Israel, Netanyahu and his government will step down, a more moderate government will be elected. It will be business as usual and nothing will change for the Palestinians.

 

The world simply doesn't care enough for it to change.

Edited 12 October 2023 by That_Dude

[st albans fox]

As expected, Israel will use the denial of water and fuel to Gaza to bargain against the release of the hostages 

 

I can’t see that is a sustainable approach  -  I can’t see that Hamas will care if the population starve because they’ll say it’s not their fault.
in addition I believe that approx  30 are held by Islamic jihad - no idea who can speak to them and they most definitely don’t care about starvation of the population 

 

it does illustrate that perhaps Israel will not enter Gaza until the fate of the hostages is settled. 

[Trav Le Bleu]

5 hours ago, MPH said:

 

 

its unfathomable for them to be able to do that..

You can't kill an ideology with weapons

 

[Wortho]

Who are the biggest oppressors of the Palestinian people? Is it the IDF or Hamas? Hamas keep all the money channelled to them and keep the people poor. Then inflict certain death to the Palestinians by their murderous actions?

[Mickyblueeyes]

7 hours ago, Jon the Hat said:

It is pretty clear that Israel cannot and will not negotiate with Hamas.  No more than you could negotiate with ISIS.  Whether they can completely remove Hamas and move forward remains to be seen.

The thing is. Decimating Hamas will just mean someone else steps into their place under a different name. While the Palestinian people are stateless groups professing to offer some sort of “military” outlet will always appear. I mean who was it before Hamas ? The Al Aqsa Brigade (incidentally with a Christian not a Muslim as one of its most prominent leaders).

 

It would be interesting to know if Israel are in communication with Mahmoud Abbas. Apparently he is meeting the US sec of state today. A quickly assembled leadership of the PA to establish control of Gaza will be far more beneficial in maintaining some control rather than a newly established one. It could also be looked at as MA and his party being Israeli puppets by the people. There is naturally going to be increased resentment to Israel, the west after this by the people of Gaza. Even those who are not part of the radical group. Seeing their homes flattened like this will do that. 
 

 

 

Edited 12 October 2023 by Mickyblueeyes

[breadandcheese]

I'm guessing that world and Arab powers are already discussing for if Hamas fall. Or at least I hope they are for the reconstruction and administration of Gaza.

 

I appreciate the track record of that is extremely poor over the last twenty years.

 

But I don't see how Hamas remaining in power is good for Israel or the Palestinians.

[leicsmac]

IMO there has to be a change of governance on both sides before any meaningful peace can happen.

 

That, however, seems a long way away.

[st albans fox]

As events over the past decades around the world have shown, planning for the peace is actually more important than the war.  The war, however is more straightforward so that peace plan is the can kicked down the road …

[st albans fox]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

IMO there has to be a change of governance on both sides before any meaningful peace can happen.

 

That, however, seems a long way away.

I don’t think a change in the Israeli govt is far away - within a year I’d expect 

 

no idea what can be done if Hamas are sidelined - as said above, the PA just being installed may well not be trusted by Gazans 

[Scotch]

7 hours ago, MPH said:

So just watched a very interesting interview  on DW with Ehul Olmert ( former Israeli PM), who stated that right now a two state solution would not be feasible as it would likely involve Hamas on the Palestinian side.He mentioned that if Israel were successful in eliminating Hamas, they would only have to deal with the more moderate Palestinian Authority  who are more likely to be able to  push through and stick to a 2 state solution..

I'm fairly ignorant to a lot of what has happened in this conflict so this maybe a stupid point and I'm going to embarass myself her, please feel free to educate me but hasn't the conflict between Israel and Palestine existed since the 40s? That's a full 40 years before Hamas were ever formed, if Israel were ever serious about a two state solution, I'd imagine that it would have happened long before the people of Palastine ever elected them. 

 

My understanding is that they were elected out of desperation in light of Israels attacks on Palastine and its inability to defend itself without an armed forces as well as the corruption in its government. Which is what I think is really meant by the "more moderate Palestinian authority" part of your quote above. A Palestinian government who are easier to corrupt and bribe. 

 

I should add that I'm in no way supportive of Hamas or their actions and feel that they've abused the power given to them by the Palestinian people to serve their own, more sinister agenda. 

[leicsmac]

18 minutes ago, Scotch said:

I'm fairly ignorant to a lot of what has happened in this conflict so this maybe a stupid point and I'm going to embarass myself her, please feel free to educate me but hasn't the conflict between Israel and Palestine existed since the 40s? That's a full 40 years before Hamas were ever formed, if Israel were ever serious about a two state solution, I'd imagine that it would have happened long before the people of Palastine ever elected them. 

 

My understanding is that they were elected out of desperation in light of Israels attacks on Palastine and its inability to defend itself without an armed forces as well as the corruption in its government. Which is what I think is really meant by the "more moderate Palestinian authority" part of your quote above. A Palestinian government who are easier to corrupt and bribe. 

 

I should add that I'm in no way supportive of Hamas or their actions and feel that they've abused the power given to them by the Palestinian people to serve their own, more sinister agenda. 

This whole thing has roots stretching back to the Sykes-Picot Agreement over a century ago, and perhaps even further - a cycle of sectarian violence that just seems to rumble on and on. Though the creation of the state is Israel in the 40's was a massive catalyst.

 

The whole terrible business right now didn't happen in a vacuum, as much as those wanting to pick sides would want it to be so.

Edited 12 October 2023 by leicsmac

[MPH]

26 minutes ago, Scotch said:

I'm fairly ignorant to a lot of what has happened in this conflict so this maybe a stupid point and I'm going to embarass myself her, please feel free to educate me but hasn't the conflict between Israel and Palestine existed since the 40s? That's a full 40 years before Hamas were ever formed, if Israel were ever serious about a two state solution, I'd imagine that it would have happened long before the people of Palastine ever elected them. 

 

My understanding is that they were elected out of desperation in light of Israels attacks on Palastine and its inability to defend itself without an armed forces as well as the corruption in its government. Which is what I think is really meant by the "more moderate Palestinian authority" part of your quote above. A Palestinian government who are easier to corrupt and bribe. 

 

I should add that I'm in no way supportive of Hamas or their actions and feel that they've abused the power given to them by the Palestinian people to serve their own, more sinister agenda. 

I think the hope for some people is that time can bring in different politicians  and peoples will to be dragged into a cycle of perpetual violence can soften over time.

 

I was more being hopeful for a resolution  but it has to be said that neither side of the controlling regimes right now want a 2 state solution..

[MPH]

2 hours ago, Wortho said:

Who are the biggest oppressors of the Palestinian people? Is it the IDF or Hamas? Hamas keep all the money channelled to them and keep the people poor. Then inflict certain death to the Palestinians by their murderous actions?

 

Definitely read a book called Son of Hamas if you get a chance. It’s about the son of one of Hamas’s founding members turning on them because he was so disgusted with how they treated their own people.

[leicsmac]

1 minute ago, MPH said:

 

Definitely read a book called Son of Hamas if you get a chance. It’s about the son of one of Hamas’s founding members turning on them because he was so disgusted with how they treated their own people.

2 hours ago, Wortho said:

Who are the biggest oppressors of the Palestinian people? Is it the IDF or Hamas? Hamas keep all the money channelled to them and keep the people poor. Then inflict certain death to the Palestinians by their murderous actions?

To repeat an earlier point here because I think it's still relevant:

 

If person A is left deliberately by person B where they can be harmed by person C, and then person C actually pulls the trigger - who is mostly responsible for the harm inflicted on person A? The person who set up the situation, or the person who actually carried out the act? Or both?

[Wortho]

4 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

To repeat an earlier point here because I think it's still relevant:

 

If person A is left deliberately by person B where they can be harmed by person C, and then person C actually pulls the trigger - who is mostly responsible for the harm inflicted on person A? The person who set up the situation, or the person who actually carried out the act? Or both?

So do you think Hamas/ISIS have looked after their people, or have they left them to die?