Israeli and Palestinian conflict

[That_Dude]

Just now, leicsmac said:

They have nuclear weapons. That alone guarantees at least parity with any opponent they might have.

 

Additionally, they (unofficially) maintain the "Samson Option" whereby they can and will lay waste to the entire Middle Eastern region with those weapons should they look to be conquered and there is not enough of a conventional response to present it.

Thank you for remind me.

 

Estimations vary from 80 to 400 of them. Enough to absolutely obliterate over anyone in the vicinity and beyond, should they get any idea. There's no parity, nuclear or conventional. No country is crazy enough to even think about attacking them. But yeah, Hamas could wipe them out in a matter of months. Imagine that.

[st albans fox]

56 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Both sides right ?

Of course

 

4 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

Agree. It's unacceptable and I hope pressure is applied to reverse this.

They’re desperate to find any angle to get whoever they can released from captivity. Anyone who has studied Israeli politics over the past few decades will know how deep a nerve hostage taking pricks.  They swapped more than a thousand prisoners for one soldier a decade ago after he’d been held for five years.  There are young children and their mothers being held in Gaza and Israel have pretty much no bargaining chips - they’ve tried to swap prisoners and been met with a lack of positive response. They don’t want the hostages (especially the civilians) to become a long  drawn out situation. That will likely prevent them going in on the ground and they don’t want Hamas to become certain that holding the hostages will keep the ground forces away.  For now they can take their time on the basis of making preparations but that cannot continue. 

so they’re using whatever they have to try and accelerate dialogue on this.  If it becomes clear to them that Hamas are not going to deal then they’ll have to go in.  In the meantime I assume they’re expecting that over the next few days, images of increasingly hungry and thirsty gazans will force the allies and friends of Hamas to demand that they deal on the hostages to get the water back on. (And power for hospitals which may get done sooner). The utilities are all that Israel have to try and get more than a hundred civilians released before they go in on the ground and these people will likely die as a consequence.  Hamas fighters know they’ll die so have nothing to lose by killing them. 

[st albans fox]

10 minutes ago, That_Dude said:

Thank you for remind me.

 

Estimations vary from 80 to 400 of them. Enough to absolutely obliterate over anyone in the vicinity and beyond, should they get any idea. There's no parity, nuclear or conventional. No country is crazy enough to even think about attacking them. But yeah, Hamas could wipe them out in a matter of months. Imagine that.

The nuclear weapons are not for Gaza or the West Bank - that would be like us nuking wales. No one considers nuking an area next to you. Isreal does actually face an enemy that does want to wipe them out - their nuclear weapons are their last resort protection. Just as ukraine found out, giving up your nukes in the expectation that someone else will come to your aid isn’t a good move. 

 

the nuclear weapons are their deterrent for countries like Iran.  

 

I know that you’ve argued that Israel’s military superiority is unmatched but that is only due to the support of the USA - and no govt anywhere should ever believe that anything is for ever. 
 

If Iran told Hezbollah to attack then they would - they aren’t scared of Isreal’s military. You saw on Saturday that sheer numbers of rockets will overcome iron dome. if Hamas was left to accumulate weapons then it’s pretty clear that a Co ordinated massive attack from Gaza and s Lebanon could be hugely damaging to Israel. they’ve managed to get hold of many thousands of rockets with a blockade in place.  It’s the job of govt to protect its population from harm.  i agree that Israel’s has over the past decade become ever more bogged down in factional political infighting that has stalled completely any idea of peace talks.  Whether Hamas could ever have been considered to be a partner for peace is likely fanciful anyway.  many thousands are dying and we must hope that our leaders ensure that this is not in vain but actually  leads to peace. 

[MPH]

for the 3rd day in a row the news is saying Israel are amassing troops on the Gaza border. either there is going to be an operation going on of seismic proportions, or every news station is being operated by Beaker from the Muppets.

 

 

 

Its probably a bit of both to be fair...

[MPH]

Americans lol. The cheeky buggers They've now blocked the Iranian 6 billion Dollars money again . If that's not an indication they were involved somewhere along the line then i don't know what is...

Edited 12 October 2023 by MPH

[SecretPro]

Well this is a weird stance from the US government, especially considering the 9/11 death toll was double. I kind of understand the per-capita argument but I'm pretty sure that's not the real reasoning behind this statement. If the per-capita argument was meant, then Israel has a population of 9ish Million, Gaza has a population of 2.3 Million, and the death toll in the latest bombing campaign alone is 1600, 60% of which are Women and Children so if we are going to do '9/11 impact on population' comparisons it doesn't really make sense. Anyway, like I say, probably more a statement to drive further disgust and therefor appetite for Israeli support.

 

Edited 12 October 2023 by SecretPro

[westernpark]

8 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

Well this is a weird stance from the US government, especially considering the 9/11 death toll was double. I understand the per-capita argument but I'm pretty sure that's not the real reasoning behind this statement. 

 

I would assume the reasoning behind such a statement is to convey to the rest of the world the scale of impact on Israel, this has had. This is an epoch event for Israel and perhaps even for Jewish communities around the world, I think Blinken’s quote was entirely appropriate.

[st albans fox]

6 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

Well this is a weird stance from the US government, especially considering the 9/11 death toll was double. I kind of understand the per-capita argument but I'm pretty sure that's not the real reasoning behind this statement. If the per-capita argument was meant, then Israel has a population of 9ish Million, Gaza has a population of 2.3 Million, and the death toll in the latest bombing campaign alone is 1600, 60% of which are Women and Children so if we are going to do '9/11 impact on population' comparisons it doesn't really make sense. Anyway, like I say, probably more a statement to drive further disgust and therefor appetite for Israeli support.

 

I think it’s from the basis that Hamas attacked civilians with no care whatsoever as to who they killed, where they were from , how old they were etc etc (yeah I know) 

 

the us are viewing the Israeli response as acceptable and reasonable - currently 

 

i guess if you don’t want to hear an American ‘pro Israel’ perspective from  a press conference in Israel then maybe don’t watch it ???

[leicsmac]

11 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

I think it’s from the basis that Hamas attacked civilians with no care whatsoever as to who they killed, where they were from , how old they were etc etc (yeah I know) 

 

the us are viewing the Israeli response as acceptable and reasonable - currently 

 

i guess if you don’t want to hear an American ‘pro Israel’ perspective from  a press conference in Israel then maybe don’t watch it ???

Pretty much this.

 

Don't expect any kind of honesty or impartiality from either side currently engaged in military action. Truth is the first casualty of war, after all.

[SecretPro]

15 minutes ago, westernpark said:

I would assume the reasoning behind such a statement is to convey to the rest of the world the scale of impact on Israel, this has had. This is an epoch event for Israel and perhaps even for Jewish communities around the world, I think Blinken’s quote was entirely appropriate.

Happy with that, as long as when this is over and the Palestinian death toll is close to the tens of thousands, we can then discuss what an epoch event it was on Palestinian communities around the world with the same candour.

[westernpark]

10 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

Happy with that, as long as when this is over and the Palestinian death toll is close to the tens of thousands, we can then discuss what an epoch event it was on Palestinian communities around the world with the same candour.

Let us hope that doesn’t happen(number of deaths you suggest). However, given the protests and demonstrations for Palestine we have already seen this week, I am certain that they will be remembered.

[SecretPro]

Just now, westernpark said:

Let us hope that doesn’t happen(number of deaths you suggest). However, given the protests and demonstrations for Palestine we have already seen this week, I am certain that they will be remembered.

They will be remembered by largely Palestinian and Muslim communities, they won't be acknowledged by most of the western media, western governments or the many, many people which have come to the conclusion that Israeli civilian lives are worth more than Palestinian ones. There will be no public outpouring. After all, prior to this latest war, there have been 6000 Palestinian deaths in the last 15 years already, though I'm not sure many people have noticed. 

[StanSP]

This is so sad

 

 

 

[Zear0]

24 minutes ago, StanSP said:

This is so sad

 

 

 

F**king grim.  Glad Channel 4 news are showing this and not just tallys on the screen.  Such a hard watch and a reminder of the actual cost of these actions.

[Trav Le Bleu]

3 hours ago, leicsmac said:

They have nuclear weapons. That alone guarantees at least parity with any opponent they might have.

 

Additionally, they (unofficially) maintain the "Samson Option" whereby they can and will lay waste to the entire Middle Eastern region with those weapons should they look to be conquered and there is not enough of a conventional response to prevent it.

Drop the temple on the Philistines, eh? Classy.

[SecretPro]

Just now, Zear0 said:

F**king grim.  Glad Channel 4 news are showing this and not just tallys on the screen.  Such a hard watch and a reminder of the actual cost of these actions.

Channel 4 news coverage has been exemplary, the best in the UK. It generally is on all things current affairs and politics. 

[Trav Le Bleu]

Long story short; Israel won't destroy Hamas.

 

Not by use of arms.

 

For starters, not every member of Hamas is going to be in the Gaza Strip. Killing them only creates martyrs, and bombing civilians will give ammo to those that aren't in Gaza to recruit enraged individuals from the Arab nations and maybe even beyond.

 

Palestine has paid a heavy price for the actions of Hamas - point made. Why not now extend the olive branch, treat the people in Palestine as equals, and win hearts, instead of hardening them.

 

But no, more people gotta die.

 

[SecretPro]

UnaVoIDaBLe JuSTiFieD CoLLatEraL

[Jattdogg]

13 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Long story short; Israel won't destroy Hamas.

 

Not by use of arms.

 

For starters, not every member of Hamas is going to be in the Gaza Strip. Killing them only creates martyrs, and bombing civilians will give ammo to those that aren't in Gaza to recruit enraged individuals from the Arab nations and maybe even beyond.

 

Palestine has paid a heavy price for the actions of Hamas - point made. Why not now extend the olive branch, treat the people in Palestine as equals, and win hearts, instead of hardening them.

 

But no, more people gotta die.

 

Who would want to join the enemy that has destroyed their homes and likely killed many of their friends and family? Tough sell even if they know hamas r cvnts. That would require some serious forgiving.

 

 

 

[SecretPro]

Interesting exchange on Sky News:

 

 

[Jattdogg]

Apparently its ok to kill palestinians because of of what crazy hamas did and the world looks the other way.

 

 

[SecretPro]

People seem to be able to justify so much right now. Good luck with this one. 

[Jattdogg]

11 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

Interesting exchange on Sky News:

 

 

Pathetic response and infuriating IMO.  Lazy thought process to just call anyone who may say or do anything to israel as a nazi. Get real. 

 

Yes, those who advocate to wipe you out might be. But that doesnt mean ALL palestinians are and especially children and babies who are too young to understand war. Outside of living in camps or dealing with terrorist threats in their young lives and all that.

 

This is exactly why peace will never exist there.

[leicsmac]

4 hours ago, st albans fox said:

The nuclear weapons are not for Gaza or the West Bank - that would be like us nuking wales. No one considers nuking an area next to you. Isreal does actually face an enemy that does want to wipe them out - their nuclear weapons are their last resort protection. Just as ukraine found out, giving up your nukes in the expectation that someone else will come to your aid isn’t a good move. 

 

the nuclear weapons are their deterrent for countries like Iran.  

 

I know that you’ve argued that Israel’s military superiority is unmatched but that is only due to the support of the USA - and no govt anywhere should ever believe that anything is for ever. 
 

If Iran told Hezbollah to attack then they would - they aren’t scared of Isreal’s military. You saw on Saturday that sheer numbers of rockets will overcome iron dome. if Hamas was left to accumulate weapons then it’s pretty clear that a Co ordinated massive attack from Gaza and s Lebanon could be hugely damaging to Israel. they’ve managed to get hold of many thousands of rockets with a blockade in place.  It’s the job of govt to protect its population from harm.  i agree that Israel’s has over the past decade become ever more bogged down in factional political infighting that has stalled completely any idea of peace talks.  Whether Hamas could ever have been considered to be a partner for peace is likely fanciful anyway.  many thousands are dying and we must hope that our leaders ensure that this is not in vain but actually  leads to peace. 

If I may...they perhaps do if the alternative is you lose your land and become either subjugated or killed anyway. That's the essence of the Samson Option.

[Mickyblueeyes]

41 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

People seem to be able to justify so much right now. Good luck with this one. 

See shit like this, how can anyone seek to justify it. Whatever has happened, it’s wrong. And as Daniel Levy said earlier this week on the BBC, not calling it out is war mongering. You’ll get utter morons without the sense of any decent values giving off accusations of agenda’s, motivation or whatever else  but how can you not question this. 

 

Yes, Israel needs to defend itself and what happened on Saturday needed a strong response. However, the freehand they have and are being given for actions that would horrify decent people if it was occurring anywhere else in the world is ridiculous.
 

And this criticism isn’t about the Israeli people just as much as it isn’t about the Palestinian people. There was a video today of a cabinet minister being shouted out of hospital by Israelis who were saying “they had destroyed the country”. 
 

Good, normal people on both sides are being killed now. And the actions and choices of Hamas and the orders on the IDF are despicable.