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MPH

Israeli and Palestinian conflict

By MPH, in General Chat

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Finnegan

Finnegan

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, breadandcheese said:

I'm sorry but that denies agency to the people who did it. The tweet below sums it up for me.

 

https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1711059623426363442?t=s2yQLlVe9sP0uNN-0na0Iw&s=19https://twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1711059623426363442?t=s2yQLlVe9sP0uNN-0na0Iw&s=19

 

 

 

 

 

The thing is, I don't think the majority of people (and I'm talking about us, right, privileged western people sat thousands of miles away passing judgement) are denying or disagreeing with that sentiment. 

 

They just want the same to be said of both sides. 

 

Yes, there might be reasons that Israel have routinely evicted Palestinians from their homes, called them animals, locked them in a cage a zoo would be ashamed off, cut off their basic human needs, denied their basic human rights and then shelled them en masse.

 

But there aren't excuses. 

 

And look, both sides are committing horrific atrocities but one is an objectively evil terrorist organisation that is near universally condemned by more or less every free, developed, democratic government on the planet and the other is supposed to BE a free, developed, democratic government. 

 

If you can't see that that's a lot of people's problem and why a lot of people hold Israel (the government) to a higher expected standard of behaviour than Hamas (the fundamentalist Islamic terror organisation) then I'm not sure we can help you. 

 

Edited by Finnegan
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Lionator

Lionator

Posted
Posted

During the ISIS terrorist campaigns in the west, the right were obsessed with criticising the left for 'virtue signalling' in response to events. Now, the right are frothing because organisations aren't engaging in virtue signalling. Not lighting up the Wembley arch in Israeli colours or the BBC not calling Hamas terrorists is not going to make any difference to anything. 

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MPH

MPH

Posted
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Posted
19 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

I would say that it is hot relative to general human experience of temperature. That would be factual. :D

 

Edit: To clarify, merely saying it is hot is opinion, the above would be fact because it's a matter of record.

 

 

So wouldn't it be factual to say Hamas is a terrorist organization due to general human experience of terror or as we have clearly defined  internationally recognized definitions of what a terrorist group is? Requirements that they appear to have met?

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SecretPro

SecretPro

Posted
Posted
Just now, FoxesDeb said:

Thanks, I've found this

 

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/sir-keir-starmer-hamas-terrorism-israel-defend-itself/

 

What Israel are doing is against international law though, so I'm not really sure what he's trying to say?

Thornberry was even worse on Newsnight last night. She ended up not being able to give a proper answer like a little switch went off in her head and said 'hmmm, yeah, that doesn't sound right'.

 

Despicable stance from both of them IMO.

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st albans fox

st albans fox

Posted
Posted

I’m pretty sure that the denial of water is Israel’s desperate attempt to get some hostages released 

 

the power is slightly more understandable on the basis that Hamas fighters will need power to assemble home made arms -( yeah I know it’s pretty loose ) and a lack of power may well mean an inability to communicate for Hamas with their operatives 

 

im not sure how long they can continue with the water denial and they will need to work out a way of getting fuel to hospital generators via the UN within the next 48 hours max 

 

 

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, MPH said:

 

 

So wouldn't it be factual to say Hamas is a terrorist organization due to general human experience of terror or as we have clearly defined  internationally recognized definitions of what a terrorist group is? Requirements that they appear to have met?

It would be factual to say that according to the US and other Western sources (and most people with half a brain) they are terrorists, but it would not be factual to define them as such as a matter of record in the same way as simple recorded empirical data is, because there is a difference between historical dates and statistical scientific facts and a term that while having an internationally recognised definition, does not have wholesale international agreement on whether or not certain parties meet those definitions.

 

Once again I know this is splitting hairs, but for me there is a critical difference between the two, because it is also the difference between the BBC stating the viewpoint of a third party about an event and the parties involved and creating their own viewpoint, and on this and other matters they really shouldn't be doing the latter, no matter how obvious it may appear.

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FoxesDeb

FoxesDeb

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

This no longer feels like a “right to defend”. 

 

Taken from the UN:

 

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

 

The definition contained in Article II of the Convention describes genocide as a crime committed with the intent to destroy a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, in whole or in part.

 

We already know that the decision to remove water and power from the Palestinians violates international law, so how does it not fall under this term? 

 

https://www.irishtimes.com/world/middle-east/2023/10/10/cutting-gaza-off-from-food-and-water-against-international-law-says-eu/

 

 

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jonathan_ross

jonathan_ross

Posted
Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, MPH said:

 

 

It Breaks my heart. It really does.

 

 

And people could discuss all day long on social media who's to blame and many  people throughout social media seem more preoccupied with point scoring and 'proving their point'. But @leicsmac is absolutely spot on. it can be a bit of both.

 

 

My personal opinion is that The Israelis are completely justified in going after Hamas and wiping them out. What i'm upset about is that civilians are being caught up in the middle of it all. What i'm very very upset about is the cutting off of food, water and electricity as this will directly and unequivocally  affect every day Civilians and Israel seem to think that's an ok part of all this.

 

I don't believe its fair to complain that your citizens have been targeted when you go and target someone else's citizens.  I know that people will point out the brutality of Hamas  as a justification for it but to me, in my simple brain, it call comes under the banner of  unjust suffering. And Israel lose all claims to a moral high ground now.

 

What troubles me more is that I don't have a solution other than everyone should ' love thy Neighbor". I think its unlikely though and too far gone for that, unfortunately :(

The big difference for me is that no Israelis are celebrating any of their military actions in retaliation, all this is done with a sad and heavy heart unlike the other side who were dancing in the streets after launching there first series of attacks.

Edited by jonathan_ross
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That_Dude

That_Dude

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, breadandcheese said:

 

There is a belief that they can't beat Israel in war. But I don't subscribe to this. Or at least not in the way we think of winning or losing. 

 

If Hamas are still in power come the end of the horrible war, they will celebrate it as a win. And unfortunately, there is nothing to suggest they can't win a conventional war against Israel's military in Gaza or at least cause huge damage, with defensive traps and drone warfare. The dominance of heavy armour and tanks looks to have taken a dint with advances in small drones and loitering munition over the battlefield.

 

Hamas are unfortunately a well trained militia army with some serious firepower, just like Hezbollah in Lebanon. Hamas are estimated to have 50,000 fighters. Hezbollah 100,000. To put that in context, the UK army has 112,000.

 

So I know it always seems silly to suggest Israel will never be beaten and it's security is guaranteed but this isn't the case.

They won't be. 

 

Aside of those who already were out of Gaza before the massacre, they're going to be killed. All of them, even if the IDF has to raze the enclave to the ground. When this war is over, the Hamas will have ceased to exist as "governing entity" in Gaza. Their fate was sealed when they decided to perpretrate the massacre and they knew it.

 

What they want is to lure the IDF in (they succeeded, the ground invasion is coming), inflict as much casualties on them as possible and more importantly, maximize the civilian collateral damages that are inevitably going to ensure, given their and the IDF's RoE. They want this war to be as dirty and bloody as possible, boil over Gaza and ideally ignite the whole region and the arab streets. They want the world to be involved, and ruin any attempt of normalization between the arab countries and Israel. Don't forget that the Hezbollah might join the chat too.

 

I personally expect an increase in terrorist attacks, world wide, in the next future.

 

It is. They might suffer such horrible attacks, especially if they keep their inane policy of putting the boot on the Palestinians throats and keep on pressing, but there's nothing in this world that can beat them militarily. The "victory" is to be found somewhere else.

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MPH

MPH

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Just now, jonathan_ross said:

The difference is no Israelis are celebrating any of there militaries actions in retaliation, all this is done with a sad and heavy heart unlike the other side who were dancing in the streets after launching there first series of attacks.


 

oh I wouldn’t say that’s quite true…. But I understand your point .lots of Israelis celebrating on Twitter, though.  

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
12 minutes ago, MPH said:


 

oh I wouldn’t say that’s quite true…. But I understand your point .lots of Israelis celebrating on Twitter, though.  

And even if there were not, dead is dead and inflicting death and suffering isn't any more noble when it's done with a veneer of gravitas and sorrow rather than celebration.

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MPH

MPH

Posted
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25 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

I’d be careful taking much from Twitter 

it generally attracts the worst kind of people to contribute ‘anonymously’

 

 

 

I agree completely. And whilst  i dont usually use Twitter to verify anything factual, i think it does still prove that there ARE Israelis celebrating right now, even if they are the worst kind..

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st albans fox

st albans fox

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

 

I agree completely. And whilst  i dont usually use Twitter to verify anything factual, i think it does still prove that there ARE Israelis celebrating right now, even if they are the worst kind..

To be fair, we can’t know context. They could have lost close family members and feel vengeful as a consequence. I doubt it but it’s not impossible 

 

of course just as in all societies, there are people that you and I would not have any empathy with 

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Mickyblueeyes

Mickyblueeyes

Posted
Posted
11 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

To be fair, we can’t know context. They could have lost close family members and feel vengeful as a consequence. I doubt it but it’s not impossible 

 

of course just as in all societies, there are people that you and I would not have any empathy with 

Both sides right ?

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Parafox

Parafox

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, jonathan_ross said:

The big difference for me is that no Israelis are celebrating any of there militaries actions in retaliation, all this is done with a sad and heavy heart unlike the other side who were dancing in the streets after launching there first series of attacks.

Mmm. Why do you think this? Do you know this to be true?

 

What about unthinking vengeance, hatred? Israeli Gov has already made it clear they will exact a terrifying response against Hamas and therefore most of Palestine regardless of who or where they bomb.

 

Do you imagine the Israeli pilots bombing Gaza were crying and apologising because they felt sorry for Palestinians?

 

 

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That_Dude

That_Dude

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

 
This video of the devastation in Gaza is horrendous. Not sharing this for any other reason except for the realisation that this is someone’s reality at the moment. 

The IAF has announced that they already dropped 6,000 bombs (4,000 tons of explosive), hitting 3,600 targets.

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, That_Dude said:

They won't be. 

 

Aside of those who already were out of Gaza before the massacre, they're going to be killed. All of them, even if the IDF has to raze the enclave to the ground. When this war is over, the Hamas will have ceased to exist as "governing entity" in Gaza. Their fate was sealed when they decided to perpretrate the massacre and they knew it.

 

What they want is to lure the IDF in (they succeeded, the ground invasion is coming), inflict as much casualties on them as possible and more importantly, maximize the civilian collateral damages that are inevitably going to ensure, given their and the IDF's RoE. They want this war to be as dirty and bloody as possible, boil over Gaza and ideally ignite the whole region and the arab streets. They want the world to be involved, and ruin any attempt of normalization between the arab countries and Israel. Don't forget that the Hezbollah might join the chat too.

 

I personally expect an increase in terrorist attacks, world wide, in the next future.

 

It is. They might suffer such horrible attacks, especially if they keep their inane policy of putting the boot on the Palestinians throats and keep on pressing, but there's nothing in this world that can beat them militarily. The "victory" is to be found somewhere else.

They have nuclear weapons. That alone guarantees at least parity with any opponent they might have.

 

Additionally, they (unofficially) maintain the "Samson Option" whereby they can and will lay waste to the entire Middle Eastern region with those weapons should they look to be conquered and there is not enough of a conventional response to prevent it.

Edited by leicsmac
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