Israeli and Palestinian conflict

[bovril]

10 minutes ago, Scotch said:

Tbh, Jewish heritage or not, I think a LOT of people could benefit from keeping their mouth shut on this. 

 

In my younger days I was quite outspoken on the issue but with age, I realised that, it's an intricately complicated issue that like most people, i don't fully understand. Look at the Celtic fans at the weekend for example...

In the last couple of days and for the first time ever I've actually cut a couple of old acquaintances from my social media. And I have basically no personal connection with the conflict at all.

[ClaphamFox]

22 minutes ago, Scotch said:

Tbh, Jewish heritage or not, I think a LOT of people could benefit from keeping their mouth shut on this. 

 

In my younger days I was quite outspoken on the issue but with age, I realised that, it's an intricately complicated issue that like most people, i don't fully understand. Look at the Celtic fans at the weekend for example...

In the UK we're in an incredibly privileged position of being able to discuss this topic, and that of other conflicts around the world, without having to experience any of the existential threats faced by those actually living through them. Today, my older son attended school and my younger son was taken by his mum to a baby group at the local village hall. I've been working in London with precisely zero fear that either of my children will be shot, kidnapped or blown up by an RPG. If members of this forum met in a pub to debate this topic, there would likely be strong disagreement and it would probably get heated, but nobody would try to kill or hurt anybody else. In fact it would probably be a fun evening. It's easy to be complacent about the fact that the UK is a peaceful country in which political disagreements are rarely expressed through violence, but at times like this I'm reminded that not everybody in the world enjoys this privilege.

 

This is not to say that we shouldn't discuss Israel/Hamas or any other situation. But it's a very sobering thought that as we do so, other people are living in utter terror as they and their families face the possibility of death at any moment. We're very, very lucky. 

Edited 10 October 2023 by ClaphamFox

[Mickyblueeyes]

It’s also very hard now with both sides propaganda machines in full flow. It’s incredibly delicate and the world is in desperate need of a statesman/woman to come in. We’ve been lacking one for years. 

[bmt]

25 minutes ago, ClaphamFox said:

In the UK we're in an incredibly privileged position of being able to discuss this topic, and that of other conflicts around the world, without having to experience any of the existential threats faced by those actually living through them. Today, my older son attended school and my younger son was taken by his mum to a baby group at the local village hall. I've been working in London with precisely zero fear that either of my children will be shot, kidnapped or blown up by an RPG. If members of this forum met in a pub to debate this topic, there would likely be strong disagreement and it would probably get heated, but nobody would try to kill or hurt anybody else. In fact it would probably be a fun evening. It's easy to be complacent about the fact that the UK is a peaceful country in which political disagreements are rarely expressed through violence, but at times like this I'm reminded that not everybody in the world enjoys this privilege.

 

This is not to say that we shouldn't discuss Israel/Hamas or any other situation. But it's a very sobering thought that as we do so, other people are living in utter terror as they and their families face the possibility of death at any moment. We're very, very lucky. 

I agree. I think the luxury afforded to us to be able to consider difficult situations should be celebrated.

 

However, I feel obliged to research and discuss this situation with others. Precisely because I am in no immediate danger of harm I think it is kind of important to give it the thought it deserves and help other people to learn at the same time. This is a great forum to do that.

 

Simply ignoring and saying nothing because we aren't immediately effected or aren't experts on Middle Eastern doesn't sit right with me. I respect those who don't want to talk about it however.

[Trav Le Bleu]

It's quite interesting, and sad, and not entirely surprising, how this has divided the media along political lines with, generally, left wing accusing right wing of Israeli bias and right wing accusing left wing of Hamas bias, when neither side has done either of the sort.

 

I was moderately surprised to see that of all the newspaper headlines (of the ones I saw as I went into local shop) it was The Mirror who got it spot on, saying think of the innocents and show pictures from both sides.

[SpacedX]

To return again to Iran. We know that Hamas cannot exist without Iranian backing and that they are sacrificial pawns in terms of the long game. As such, this attack is designed to bring down the full weight of the Israeli war machine on the Gaza Strip and in so doing provoke outrage and anger in the Arab world. Not only does this destabilise the region but it is also designed to deter Saudi Arabia from the proposed peace deal with Israel and alignment with the US. Dief has announced his intention to purge Israeli occupation whilst the Israeli army is on the cusp of mobilising a ground war. This could well open up conflict on multiple fronts with the Hezbollah drawn in following their artillery bombardment at the weekend from the north. 

 

At the centre of all this are the innocent civilian lives at stake. 

[st albans fox]

Whatever Israel do now is wrong 

 

Retaliation  leads to civilian Palestinian deaths in Gaza 

 

cutting off supplies will lead to terrible hardships and ultimately civilian deaths in gaza

 

Doing nothing risks encouraging hezbollah to open up another front in the north. 
 

when was the last time 1000 civilians (as a proportion of 7m pop) were murdered in cold blood in one day by terrorists without a response ??  
 

As commented above - hamas knew what would happen and care not a jot about their civilian population. 

[st albans fox]

I’ve been out all day so just catching up on news from Israel and Gaza 

 

I’ve seen reports from reputable news broadcasters that in one kibbutz 40 young children and babies were slaughtered - some beheaded. I prey this is not true - I mean what kind of person could do something like that ?  

[Mickyblueeyes]

5 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

I’ve been out all day so just catching up on news from Israel and Gaza 

 

I’ve seen reports from reputable news broadcasters that in one kibbutz 40 young children and babies were slaughtered - some beheaded. I prey this is not true - I mean what kind of person could do something like that ?  

Apparently one that needs to be verified from the original source. Pray it isn’t true. There is also a picture going around on X (which I really need to stay off for my sanity) of burnt bodies being claimed by both sides! Propaganda machines in full flow, no idea how to verify x from y now which makes it difficult.    

[st albans fox]

10 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said:

Apparently one that needs to be verified from the original source. Pray it isn’t true. There is also a picture going around on X (which I really need to stay off for my sanity) of burnt bodies being claimed by both sides! Propaganda machines in full flow, no idea how to verify x from y now which makes it difficult.    

The kibbutz massacre is being quoted by Reuters and has appeared on the bbc live feed - just sickening. The comparison made with ISIS seems to be fair (although I’m not sure even they were guiltily of be heading babies and young children) 

[Jattdogg]

Just listened to the radio of a survivor and her account of what happened, what she saw and how she almost died (and wouldhave if she didnt leave the bunker). I dont know what to say because evil is too light of a word. I have been avoiding detailed accounts for the most part but this has just pissed me right off.

 

I am not sure what the solution is right now because as we type and read, innocent palestinians are being slaughtered. I cannot accept that either.

 

How do you stop the cvnts on both sides when you have the likes of  US, russia, iran and other countries backing and supporting different sides.. How do you get everyone to realize these are people not just a muslim or a jew or others who are neither but also slaughtered.

 

I just can't  see how this will ever resolve unless all sides work together and accept loss/gain in the form of compromise.

 

So blessed to live In Canada.

 

 

 

 

[Mickyblueeyes]

4 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

The kibbutz massacre is being quoted by Reuters and has appeared on the bbc live feed - just sickening. The comparison made with ISIS seems to be fair (although I’m not sure even they were guiltily of be heading babies and young children) 

Yes there are reports. The original source is being verified. Very sad if true. Sky News just did a walk through Kibbutz and unfortunately didn’t clarify or mention. 
 

The obvious thing is there were deaths/murder in the area. 

[TJQuik]

[st albans fox]

Just now, TJQuik said:

There’s nothing wrong with a Palestinian flag - it was a bit odd to fly it that day considering none of those boys are Palestinian !

Edited 10 October 2023 by st albans fox

[String fellow]

11 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

The kibbutz massacre is being quoted by Reuters and has appeared on the bbc live feed - just sickening. The comparison made with ISIS seems to be fair (although I’m not sure even they were guiltily of be heading babies and young children) 

 Ali Khamenei, the Iranian leader, wants to kiss the hands of those who planned all this. Sometimes, I totally despair of so-called humanity.

 

 

[TJQuik]

1 hour ago, st albans fox said:

Whatever Israel do now is wrong 

 

Retaliation  leads to civilian Palestinian deaths in Gaza 

 

cutting off supplies will lead to terrible hardships and ultimately civilian deaths in gaza

 

Doing nothing risks encouraging hezbollah to open up another front in the north. 
 

when was the last time 1000 civilians (as a proportion of 7m pop) were murdered in cold blood in one day by terrorists without a response ??  
 

As commented above - hamas knew what would happen and care not a jot about their civilian population. 

They could try following and dismantling their colonialist state and stop treating Palestinians like insects.

 

Why is it that Israel can steal the land of and commit constant atrocities towards the Palestinians without expecting violent retaliation, but it's taken as given that Israel must respond with even greater inhumanity towards Palestinian civilians when their civilians are attacked?

[fox_up_north]

Eurgh. I didn't want to believe it. The blokes that have done this...how their wives, children and parents can look at them.

[SecretPro]

The report of and extent of murder of children in the Kibbutz is horrific and cannot be condoned by any sane human being, its disgusting. 

 

However, let's not forget that between the years 2000 and 2021 B'tselem, an Israeli organisation, puts the figures of Palestinian children killed by the IDF and Israeli settlers at 2171, and the number of Israeli children killed across the same period by Palestinian militants at 139. I've not seen any persistent outrage at this by Joe Public or members of this forum because its easy to put this down to that horrible word 'collateral' which somehow diminishes child death. 'Slaughter' 'beheading' and 'Murder' will always produce far stronger emotive responses, as will the deliverate nature of those actions but the end result is the same I'm afraid. Dead children. There are of course plenty of impartial human rights groups reporting over the years the deliberate targeting and killing of civilians and children by the IDF and Israeli settlers, perhaps in a less barbaric manner, but murder all the same, it's just that you have to go looking for those reports because they don't often make headlines.

 

From wikipedia:

 

In late April 2015 Human Rights Watch asked the UN to put both Israel and Hamas on its "List of Shame" regarding grave violations of children's rights in a conflict.^[6] United Nations Secretary General António Guterres said in 2021: "If there is a hell on earth, it is the lives of children in Gaza today"

[st albans fox]

5 minutes ago, TJQuik said:

They could try following and dismantling their colonialist state and stop treating Palestinians like insects.

 

Why is it that Israel can steal the land of and commit constant atrocities towards the Palestinians without expecting violent retaliation, but it's taken as given that Israel must respond with even greater inhumanity towards Palestinian civilians when their civilians are attacked?

Just a short question - why should Israel be expected to treat the Palestinians of Gaza better than the hamas govt that is responsible for governing that enclave? 
 

sadly the last few days is clear evidence as to why Israel controls everything that enters Gaza - all these rockets and arms got in even with these restrictions.  Imagine having an airport and port in Gaza - they would wipe Israel off the map within months.  
 

I assume you are asking about what has occurred in the West Bank - it’s not defendable. Taking land for settlements is not something that anyone outside of the right wing Israeli govt approves of.  It just highlights how big an opportunity was missed by both sides twenty years ago when a viable two state solution was on the table.   
 

we can hope that the fall out from this will see netenyahu and his rw cronies kicked out and real progress towards a peaceful settlement achieved. 

[st albans fox]

22 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

The report of and extent of murder of children in the Kibbutz is horrific and cannot be condoned by any sane human being, its disgusting. 

 

However, let's not forget that between the years 2000 and 2021 B'tselem, an Israeli organisation, puts the figures of Palestinian children killed by the IDF and Israeli settlers at 2171, and the number of Israeli children killed across the same period by Palestinian militants at 139. I've not seen any persistent outrage at this by Joe Public or members of this forum because its easy to put this down to that horrible word 'collateral' which somehow diminishes child death. 'Slaughter' and 'Murder' will always produce far stronger emotive responses, but the end result is the same I'm afraid. Dead children. 

It’s grim

 

This is a part of the world where kids over the age of twelve will sometimes carry weapons. Those over sixteen will sometimes be fighters prepared to kill.
 

our definition of children being anyone under the age of 18 is stretched in other cultures and regions. 

 

the reference to murdered children this afternoon is in relation to a specific event and relates to small children and babies (and the possible method of their murder).  I shouldn’t make a distinction but I do. 
 

There are young kids and perhaps babies being killed in Gaza this evening as a consequence of missile strikes - that’s a more relevant conversation imo. 

[Mickyblueeyes]

17 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Just a short question - why should Israel be expected to treat the Palestinians of Gaza better than the hamas govt that is responsible for governing that enclave? 
 

sadly the last few days is clear evidence as to why Israel controls everything that enters Gaza - all these rockets and arms got in even with these restrictions.  Imagine having an airport and port in Gaza - they would wipe Israel off the map within months.  
 

I assume you are asking about what has occurred in the West Bank - it’s not defendable. Taking land for settlements is not something that anyone outside of the right wing Israeli govt approves of.  It just highlights how big an opportunity was missed by both sides twenty years ago when a viable two state solution was on the table.   
 

we can hope that the fall out from this will see netenyahu and his rw cronies kicked out and real progress towards a peaceful settlement achieved. 

This is such an important point of the opportunity that was lost. Anyone, even those of Palestinian persuasion (I’d say that’s me) has to agree that the opportunity lost with negotiations between Batak and Arafat was the greatest opportunity for peace that was ever presented to both parties. 
 

Putting aside the 1948 war. The 1917 agreement. The manner in which Palestinian land was lost. The opportunity at that time presented by Clinton was, for any leader wanting peace (and prospects) for its people a great opportunity. Custodianship of the Temple Mount too. Arafat turned it down, with no negotiation. Arafat was a crook who died in an exclusive apartment in Paris (well away from the West Bank and/or Gaza) with his family pocketing large amounts of Palestinian money. 
 

Leadership of PLO, Democrats in the US, Labour (Israel) and Labour (UK). It was the perfect storm for a peace deal. Now what do we have. Extreme right nutjobs leading Israel. A toothless Fatah, The Tory’s and Biden who had nap time at lunch time yesterday. It’s like you say, a big opportunity.

[Koke]

Palestine had been under occupation in my life time and in my parents lifetime. Unfortunately I don't see anything changing, just more conflict. Especially when Israel has the support of world powers behind them. 

[Koke]

Every time this conflict comes up I remember this tweet 

 

.

 

[MPH]

1 hour ago, TJQuik said:

 

 

I’d like to know your intentions for posting this?

 

 

 

[Raj]

5 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

 

I’d like to know your intentions for posting this?

 

 

 

To be fair it was a very strange thing to do at the time.

 

Noticed  a few of them flying out on Evington Road and a few car flahs with "Free Palestine".

 

 

Edited 10 October 2023 by Raj