Muzzy_no7 Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 Owen Jones making a complete Tit of himself as usual on Sky News. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st albans fox Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 3 minutes ago, Muzzy_no7 said: Owen Jones making a complete Tit of himself as usual on Sky News. Struggling to read the room wasn’t he yeah but no but ….. he just has a way about him which is so unlikeable 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kopfkino Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 2 hours ago, st albans fox said: Just a short question - why should Israel be expected to treat the Palestinians of Gaza better than the hamas govt that is responsible for governing that enclave? sadly the last few days is clear evidence as to why Israel controls everything that enters Gaza - all these rockets and arms got in even with these restrictions. Imagine having an airport and port in Gaza - they would wipe Israel off the map within months. I assume you are asking about what has occurred in the West Bank - it’s not defendable. Taking land for settlements is not something that anyone outside of the right wing Israeli govt approves of. It just highlights how big an opportunity was missed by both sides twenty years ago when a viable two state solution was on the table. we can hope that the fall out from this will see netenyahu and his rw cronies kicked out and real progress towards a peaceful settlement achieved. Most viable moment, maybe. Was it ever actually viable, probably not. Even if it was, could it have sustained, almost certainly not. Which is sort of the problem. Even at the best of times there wasn’t really a solution (or a solution required the best statesperson we’ve ever know) and now there’s certainly not a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MPH Posted 10 October 2023 Author Share Posted 10 October 2023 1 hour ago, Raj said: To be fair it was a very strange thing to do at the time. Noticed a few of them flying out on Evington Road and a few car flahs with "Free Palestine". I think someone just threw them a flag from the crowd and they picked it up. It wasn’t premeditated, I don’t think.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Fox Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 Syria and Lebanon now involved. Crazy times we are living in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxy boxing Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 The whole middle east is a tinder box Palestinians against Israelis, sunni against Shia, Saudi Arabia, U.S, allies against Iran, Syrian leadership, hezbollah. There have been allied massacres of civilians in Afghanistan, Yemen, Iraq.terrorists are evil and they target civilians to make their point and its evil and vile and sickening but let's not kid ourselves that Israel and western allies and Saudi Arabia havnt carried out their own atrocities on civilians. All civilian life is precious and one should not succeed the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanSP Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 16 minutes ago, Happy Fox said: Syria and Lebanon now involved. Crazy times we are living in. Was inevitable by the sounds of it. Won't be long before Iran and Saudi have more of a direct part as well perhaps? How are Egypt and Turkey aligned in the whole thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LFox99 Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 15 minutes ago, StanSP said: Won't be long before Iran and Saudi have more of a direct part as well perhaps? No chance. They'll obviously keep up appearances regarding supporting their Palestinian "brothers" but Saudi Arabia and Iran (and by extension the Hamas/ Hezbollah) are sworn enemies, not even a war against Israel would unite them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LFox99 Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 Despicable 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st albans fox Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 14 minutes ago, StanSP said: Was inevitable by the sounds of it. Won't be long before Iran and Saudi have more of a direct part as well perhaps? How are Egypt and Turkey aligned in the whole thing? Syria wouldn’t be doing anything without Moscow’s approval Saudi will not want to take a stance beyond what they’ve already said. They don’t want to completely destroy any possibility of normalising relations with Israel until they have no choice. Egypt, as Turkey have a problem with their Muslim populations - as Gaza is pummelled and more civilians die, there will be popular demand for an anti Israel response egypt is no fan of Hamas whatsoever and they would rather Gaza wasn’t there at all on the edge of their territory. Egypt will not want to become involved militarily. biden made a strong point earlier to countries and groups in the region not to get involved. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the US take limited military action against Syria or hezbollah if they over step too much as a warning. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st albans fox Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 Over the weekend I made a point about my unease with equivalency between Hamas fighters and the IDF. I was told that this was my problem. I think we should all be able to see now that there is no equivalence and anyone maintaining that there is should have a good long look at themselves 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LFox99 Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 7 minutes ago, st albans fox said: Syria wouldn’t be doing anything without Moscow’s approval Saudi will not want to take a stance beyond what they’ve already said. They don’t want to completely destroy any possibility of normalising relations with Israel until they have no choice. Egypt, as Turkey have a problem with their Muslim populations - as Gaza is pummelled and more civilians die, there will be popular demand for an anti Israel response egypt is no fan of Hamas whatsoever and they would rather Gaza wasn’t there at all on the edge of their territory. Egypt will not want to become involved militarily. biden made a strong point earlier to countries and groups in the region not to get involved. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the US take limited military action against Syria or hezbollah if they over step too much as a warning. Every arab neighbouring state has their own personal history when it comes to dealing with Palestinians and why they refuse to do so now. Egypt was victim of Hamas bombing sprees when their border to Gaza was open. The border is now basically permanently closed. Jordan had their King assassinated by a Palestinian. The Palestinians supported Hussein's invasion of Kuwait - one of Saudi Arabia's closest historical allies. Since then Saudi Arabia has been steadily deporting Palestinians who show any sign of goodwill towards the Hamas 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickyblueeyes Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 4 minutes ago, st albans fox said: Over the weekend I made a point about my unease with equivalency between Hamas fighters and the IDF. I was told that this was my problem. I think we should all be able to see now that there is no equivalence and anyone maintaining that there is should have a good long look at themselves Your problem was saying Hamas is bad - duh and saying the IDF is also bad in practices doesn’t mean there is any suggestion of equivalence. You’ve got to be downright moronic not to see that Hamas are hellbent on destruction with their “leaders” living in luxury apartments well away from Gaza or the West Bank. For entirely different reasons, the actions of the IDF as a sovereign army and their record of destruction, allegations (some proven) and disregard for their enemy is also bad. You can understand and support the Palestinian cause without supporting Hamas. You can understand and support the need for a safe Jewish homeland but still criticise the IDF. Happy for you to pull up any posts suggesting “equivalence” because it was quite clearly explained. Your suggestion of equivalence because of basic criticism of the IDF was wrong and, it’s your problem if you see problems with that and even more so if you think the above is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st albans fox Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 6 minutes ago, Mickyblueeyes said: Your problem was saying Hamas is bad - duh and saying the IDF is also bad in practices doesn’t mean there is any suggestion of equivalence. You’ve got to be downright moronic not to see that Hamas are hellbent on destruction with their “leaders” living in luxury apartments well away from Gaza or the West Bank. For entirely different reasons, the actions of the IDF as a sovereign army and their record of destruction, allegations (some proven) and disregard for their enemy is also bad. You can understand and support the Palestinian cause without supporting Hamas. You can understand and support the need for a safe Jewish homeland but still criticise the IDF. Happy for you to pull up any posts suggesting “equivalence” because it was quite clearly explained. Your suggestion of equivalence because of basic criticism of the IDF was wrong and, it’s your problem if you see problems with that and even more so if you think the above is wrong. Sorry mate but you specifically wrote it on Sunday. I’ve copied it below for you and anyone else to read again. You equated the morals of the IDF and Hamas. Quite frankly, I wonder what your motivations are because you continually try to give a vibe of an even handed unbiased approach but I’m not convinced ill read your repsonse in the morning - I don’t want to read it tonight as it will aggravate me and I won’t sleep Mickyblueeyes Member 6,252 Location: Leicester Posted Sunday at 19:42 On 08/10/2023 at 19:35, st albans fox said: it will happen but it will happen as a consequence of Israeli soldiers fighting in Gaza trying to find hostages or Hamas fighters. it won’t be a deliberate act for the sake of it as happened yesterday. Of course you could argue that knowingly going into Gaza and fighting house to house will lead to deaths of women and children (as collateral - hate that phrase) i wonder how Hamas are going to deal with the civilian hostages they have taken back into Gaza. they surely have enough military ones to use as bargaining chips to release prisoners held in Israeli jails - they should release these civilians urgently - it’s abhorrent to have taken mothers with their children and hold them ‘as pawns’. There’s enough out there to suggest otherwise. I’m sorry but to pretend that the IDF have any sort of morals which differ significantly from Hamas because they happen to wear a uniform is ridiculous. The Human Rights Watch called them out as child killers just a few months ago. This conflict is ****ed up. The combatants on both sides lost their moral high ground years ago. It’s the every day people who suffer but the brutality of the combatants will leave water in the eyes. I remind you, Hamas went to war with the PLO not that long ago. There is going to be carnage and a quick search on Twitter on the atrocities already committed by both is frightening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickyblueeyes Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 2 minutes ago, st albans fox said: Sorry mate but you specifically wrote it on Sunday. I’ve copied it below for you and anyone else to read again. You equated the morals of the IDF and Hamas. Quite frankly, I wonder what your motivations are because you continually try to give a vibe of an even handed unbiased approach but I’m not convinced ill read your repsonse in the morning - I don’t want to read it tonight as it will aggravate me and I won’t sleep Mickyblueeyes Member 6,252 Location: Leicester Posted Sunday at 19:42 On 08/10/2023 at 19:35, st albans fox said: it will happen but it will happen as a consequence of Israeli soldiers fighting in Gaza trying to find hostages or Hamas fighters. it won’t be a deliberate act for the sake of it as happened yesterday. Of course you could argue that knowingly going into Gaza and fighting house to house will lead to deaths of women and children (as collateral - hate that phrase) i wonder how Hamas are going to deal with the civilian hostages they have taken back into Gaza. they surely have enough military ones to use as bargaining chips to release prisoners held in Israeli jails - they should release these civilians urgently - it’s abhorrent to have taken mothers with their children and hold them ‘as pawns’. There’s enough out there to suggest otherwise. I’m sorry but to pretend that the IDF have any sort of morals which differ significantly from Hamas because they happen to wear a uniform is ridiculous. The Human Rights Watch called them out as child killers just a few months ago. This conflict is ****ed up. The combatants on both sides lost their moral high ground years ago. It’s the every day people who suffer but the brutality of the combatants will leave water in the eyes. I remind you, Hamas went to war with the PLO not that long ago. There is going to be carnage and a quick search on Twitter on the atrocities already committed by both is frightening. I was responding to your comment that the IDF acting properly is an absolute given. Look at your post. How is my response not saying exactly what I’ve said since. Why not post my response to your hissyfit where I quite clearly told you ? The IDF as an army have been brought into question multiple times for things which are at the very least questionable. Their moral standing as a sovereign army means you can’t just make a blanket claim that they will act in accordance with international laws. In fact, I would hold them in higher standing than a ****ing terrorist group. and your comment on “not buying it” ? Honestly, this is a football forum debating a serious issue. The only response to that is go **** yourself. This is an issue close to me so I will give opinions just like everyone else, within the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daggers Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eblair Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 (edited) Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005. They destroyed settlements and forcibly removed Jews. Gaza elected Hamas a year later. I think nearly everyone would agree the withdrawal from Gaza has been a disaster for everyone. Gazan lives are immeasurably worse, Israelis are no safer. I cannot see any solution in medium term which is mildly optimistic. Whole thing is beyond depressing. Edited 10 October 2023 by eblair 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WigstonWanderer Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 4 hours ago, st albans fox said: we can hope that the fall out from this will see netenyahu and his rw cronies kicked out and real progress towards a peaceful settlement achieved. I really hope you’re right, but traditionally in war, populations usually get behind their leaders and there is generally a heightened sense of nationalism. This is bound to encourage the fascist “kill them all” tendencies. Even if he’s seen as having been incompetent in protecting Israelis, it won’t necessarily herald a more enlightened regime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretPro Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 6 minutes ago, WigstonWanderer said: I really hope you’re right, but traditionally in war, populations usually get behind their leaders and there is generally a heightened sense of nationalism. This is bound to encourage the fascist “kill them all” tendencies. Even if he’s seen as having been incompetent in protecting Israelis, it won’t necessarily herald a more enlightened regime. Israeli TV reporting tonight that they can confirm Egyption authorities warned Isreali Government of impending attack whilst Netanyahu has publicly said that Israel had no knowledge of any impending attacks. Netanyahu probably done. However, it seems as we speak he's talking about creating a coalition with all the other parties of Israel to run the Country together...clearly he will do anything to stay in power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LFox99 Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 2 minutes ago, SecretPro said: Israeli TV reporting tonight that they can confirm Egyption authorities warned Isreali Government of impending attack whilst Netanyahu has publicly said that Israel had no knowledge of any impending attacks. Netanyahu probably done. However, it seems as we speak he's talking about creating a coalition with all the other parties of Israel to run the Country together...clearly he will do anything to stay in power. Netanyahu might be a bit of a muppet but to suggest he'd willingly ignore intel and let his people be slaughtered like that just to cling onto the office a bit longer and get free(er) reign over Gaza is ludicrous and conspiratory bs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SecretPro Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, LFox99 said: Netanyahu might be a bit of a muppet but to suggest he'd willingly ignore intel and let his people be slaughtered like that just to cling onto the office a bit longer and get free(er) reign over Gaza is ludicrous and conspiratory bs Not sure where I said that? Oh, that's right, I didn't Clearly the Intel was ignored. My point about Netanyahu doing what he can to cling on was about him trying to create a Coalition of parties. Bit of a muppet? Bit of an understatement. Edited 10 October 2023 by SecretPro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jattdogg Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 10 minutes ago, LFox99 said: Netanyahu might be a bit of a muppet but to suggest he'd willingly ignore intel and let his people be slaughtered like that just to cling onto the office a bit longer and get free(er) reign over Gaza is ludicrous and conspiratory bs Given whats happend on both sides, now, in the past....anything is possible when you have a greater goal. Having said that i do agree it's highly unlikely that he would have allowed this to happen unless he is a psycho. Either he didn't get the memo from his staff/peeps or he did and didn't care. Someone had to have known if what the Egyptians are saying is true. That someone is a clown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban.spaceman Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 6 hours ago, Finnegan said: I'm just a gobshite sitting on a moral high horse. Framing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon the Hat Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 15 hours ago, Daggers said: Let me just stop you there https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/declassified-files-link-cia-to-ira-gun-running/35379252.html The American state funded and facilitated the IRA’s campaign of attrition. Is that it? That isn’t evidence of any such thing. Happy to agree if there is any. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
urban.spaceman Posted 10 October 2023 Share Posted 10 October 2023 2 hours ago, LFox99 said: Despicable Depraved. Just ****ing evil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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