Israeli and Palestinian conflict

[SecretPro]

9 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67065205

 

Jeremy Bowen was at the scene of the masscare and saw the corpses.  

 

“Mothers, fathers, babies, young families killed in their beds, in the protection room, in the dining room, in their garden,” Maj Gen Itai Veruv of the Israel Defence Forces told the BBC, as his troops searched homes for bodies of victims. “It’s not a war, it’s not a battlefield. It’s a massacre.”

 

Direct quote from a Major General of the IDF at the scene so only way it's not true is if he and Jeremy Bowen (whom I 100% believe) are lying.  Sadly a huge amount of "Citizen Journalists " on X are casting doubt against actual journalists reporting from the scene.

The BBC are still reporting it is unconfirmed and Jeremy is direct quoting what the Army Officer has told him, rather than seeing the bodies himself.

 

IDF high ups are saying its unconfirmed.

Edited 11 October 2023 by SecretPro

[Zear0]

4 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

The BBC are still reporting it is unconfirmed and Jeremy is direct quoting what the Army Officer has told him, rather than seeing the bodies himself.

 

IDF high ups are saying its unconfirmed.

In the video he's literally stood next to a decapitated woman.

 

“They killed them and cut some of their heads, it’s a dreadful thing to see,” Davidi Ben Zion, the deputy commander of Unit 71, the paratroopers who led the Israeli forces into Kfar Aza, told Reuters.

“Thank God we saved many lives of many parents and children,” he said. “Unfortunately, some were burned by molotov [cocktails]. They are very aggressive, like animals.”

 

Again, that's 2 people in the BBC article and another in Reuters saying this stuff happened.

Edited 11 October 2023 by Zear0

[SecretPro]

3 minutes ago, Zear0 said:

In the video he's literally stood next to a decapitated woman.

 

“They killed them and cut some of their heads, it’s a dreadful thing to see,” Davidi Ben Zion, the deputy commander of Unit 71, the paratroopers who led the Israeli forces into Kfar Aza, told Reuters.

“Thank God we saved many lives of many parents and children,” he said. “Unfortunately, some were burned by molotov [cocktails]. They are very aggressive, like animals.”

 

Again, that's 2 people in the BBC article and another in Reuters saying this stuff happened.

No Doubt

 

But we are talking specifically about the 40 decapitated babies. Nobody is denying civilians were murdered.

 

Not having a go at you, but you are quoting the BBC who themselves, in the studio, are still referring to the beheaded babies as 'unconfirmed'.

 

The IDF themselves, also specifically in respect of the '40 decapitated babies' are unable to 'confirm'.

[st albans fox]

7 minutes ago, FoxesWalk said:

That is what happens when both sides target civilians, sadly. In Ukraine at least people have the opportunity and assistance to get out for the most part, in Israel it was the speed and surprise of the attack that prevents people avoiding it, and in Gaza there is literally no way out by land or sea, you just cross your fingers the bombs and bullets don’t fall on you, but shelters and public/residential buildings are frequently destroyed by air strikes. Hamas use ordinary Palestinians as human shields essentially, and unlike Ukrainians, those innocent people have little to no western government support. 

Isreal will argue that they aren’t targeting civilians in Gaza but civilian deaths are unavoidable when Hamas fighters and infrastructure and weaponry is embedded in amongst the general population. (Deliberately as you say) 

Russia has seemed to be targeting civilians during the war so far. But Ukraine is way less densely populated than Gaza.

 

Hamas terrorists deliberately targeted civilians and murdered as many as they could (who weren’t taken hostage) 

 

please can we avoid straight equivalence because it’s not correct

 

if anyone is of that mindset then I’d ask if they vocally or physically opposed the war in Iraq or Afghanistan at the time  because both led to massive civilian casualties. 

[Zear0]

1 minute ago, SecretPro said:

No Doubt

 

But we are talking specifically about the 40 decapitated babies. Nobody is denying civilians were murdered.

 

Not having a go at you, but you are quoting the BBC who themselves, in the studio, are still referring to the beheaded babies as 'unconfirmed'.

 

The IDF themselves, also specifically in respect of the '40 decapitated babies' are unable to 'confirm'.

Fair enough.  I will say though if the media are getting into semantics about whether a baby was decapitated or "merely" had it's throat slit we've jumped the shark on that one.

[st albans fox]

1 minute ago, SecretPro said:

No Doubt

 

But we are talking specifically about the 40 decapitated babies. Nobody is denying civilians were murdered.

 

Not having a go at you, but you are quoting the BBC who themselves, in the studio, are still referring to the beheaded babies as 'unconfirmed'.

 

The IDF themselves, also specifically in respect of the '40 decapitated babies' are unable to 'confirm'.

I can be certain that there were not 40 decapitated babies 

 

I can also be certain that there were 40 babies/ young children who were murdered in cold blood face to face.

 

 

[st albans fox]

Egypt warned Israel days before Hamas struck, US committee chairman says https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67082047
 

I know some have said that netenyahu will find a way to survive all of this but I just don’t see it. Whatever happens over the next month - even if Hamas was destroyed with minimal further Gaza civilian and Israeli military deaths, he presided over 2000 terrorists, hell bent on murder, infiltrating the border from gaza - the vast majority not via tunnels or in any other clever fashion but through gaps in the fence made by diggers.  It’s just crazy. 

[StanSP]

Good to be back!

[Mickyblueeyes]

Coming back to give off a vibe! 
 

Seriously though, Twitter/X has been incredibly bad today. This forum/discussion has been a bit of a release with regards to a topic that is of interest. 
 

Good to have it back. 

[Mickyblueeyes]

 

This from Daniel Levy (a former senior Israeli negotiator and advisor) on the BBC was excellent. 

[st albans fox]

I just saw an interview with a Jewish lady from the U.K. who had lost some family members on Saturday 

 

she said that this was the fifth consecutive generation of her family to have had family members murdered going back through her great grandparents (I assume starting with Russian pogroms) 

 

this  provides a little perspective but it’s pretty horrifying 

 

it should be noted that if the Palestinian/israeli problem isn’t solved then this will soon be occurring in Gaza and the West Bank, given the high birth rate and generally younger parenthood ages 

 

 

Edited 11 October 2023 by st albans fox

[SecretPro]

9 hours ago, st albans fox said:

Isreal will argue that they aren’t targeting civilians in Gaza but civilian deaths are unavoidable when Hamas fighters and infrastructure and weaponry is embedded in amongst the general population. (Deliberately as you say) 

Russia has seemed to be targeting civilians during the war so far. But Ukraine is way less densely populated than Gaza.

 

Hamas terrorists deliberately targeted civilians and murdered as many as they could (who weren’t taken hostage) 

 

please can we avoid straight equivalence because it’s not correct

 

if anyone is of that mindset then I’d ask if they vocally or physically opposed the war in Iraq or Afghanistan at the time  because both led to massive civilian casualties. 

There have of course historically been straight equivalences, like the Sabra Shatila massacre (up to 3000 murdered in cold blood). Regardless, I don't like this notion that civilians (so far 60% of which are women and children on the Gaza side) being rocketed to dust is just a 'sad unavoidable'. It just feeds into the continued narrative that Palestinian life and more generally Muslim life is of less value. There's strategic targets that may incur some unavoidable loss of civilian life that is perhaps, perhaps necessary, and then there's flattening entire Markets, Hospitals, and Civilian infrastructure, housing, entire estates etc. 

 

Let's not pretend a lot of this isn't driven by 'an eye for an eye' and rage and is widely considered somehow acceptable in the Western conscience.

Edited 11 October 2023 by SecretPro

[st albans fox]

11 minutes ago, SecretPro said:

There have of course historically been straight equivalences, like the Sabra Shatila massacre (up to 3000 murdered in cold blood). Regardless, I don't like this notion that civilians (so far 60% of which are women and children on the Gaza side) being rocketed to dust is just a 'sad unavoidable'. It just feeds into the continued narrative that Palestinian life and more generally Muslim life is of less value. There's strategic targets that may incur some unavoidable loss of civilian life that is perhaps, perhaps necessary, and then there's flattening entire Markets, Hospitals, and Civilian infrastructure, housing, entire estates etc. 

 

Let's not pretend a lot of this isn't driven by 'an eye for an eye' and rage and is widely considered somehow acceptable in the Western conscience.

I really don’t think it’s as crude as an eye for an eye - I would think that it’s more a case when the military say that hitting that Hamas target is likely to lead to civilian deaths the response from above is a shrug of the shoulders.  that’s not to excuse it  but it’s also not the same as straight revenge. 

[CosbehFox]

10 hours ago, st albans fox said:

Hamas is not in control of the West Bank - that’s the PLA. Hamas threw the PLA out of Gaza once they had been elected and taken root.   Granted that elections in Gaza are no longer free and fair in any sense whatsoever but in 2005, the decision of the people of Gaza to deliver Hamas victory should be seen as one of the most awful illustrations of the democratic system ever.   Was there anything comparable in the period between the National socialists in Germany and that 2005 election ? 

Hitler lost the Presidential run off but the Nat Soc’s had most seats in the Bundestag. As a result that gave Hitler the right as chancellor. President bumbled on appointing him but eventually did. Gave Hitler the power to enforce certain laws 

[leicsmac]

....why are people asking that a news organisation created to report neutrally on world events and present reported facts rather than create a narrative (in theory if not necessarily in practice) pick sides in this matter?

 

I can see why John Simpson is pissed off.

[Rusko187]

Nice one Justin

 

[st albans fox]

13 minutes ago, Rusko187 said:

Nice one Justin

 

Looks like he must have done that himself rather than leaving it to his publicists - duh!

[Trav Le Bleu]

2 hours ago, st albans fox said:

Egypt warned Israel days before Hamas struck, US committee chairman says https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67082047
 

I know some have said that netenyahu will find a way to survive all of this but I just don’t see it. Whatever happens over the next month - even if Hamas was destroyed with minimal further Gaza civilian and Israeli military deaths, he presided over 2000 terrorists, hell bent on murder, infiltrating the border from gaza - the vast majority not via tunnels or in any other clever fashion but through gaps in the fence made by diggers.  It’s just crazy. 

Any possibility that the Israeli government ignored this information knowing that it would give them an excuse to attack Gaza, maybe they thought the attack would be less severe? Which would be very ironic, given Hitler did similar to justify his attack on the Jews. This is I admit, wild speculation and therefore probably not helpful, but I do wonder why they ignored this.

 

I also note both sides describing the other side as animals. When you don't see people as human, it's much easier to kill them. It's basically what serial killers do. Thousands of serial pillar on both side, wound up and ready to go .

 

Hamas started this (at least as a physical conflict of arms since previous encounters), but almost certainly Israel will finish it, but at a terrible cost.

[Trav Le Bleu]

3 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

Looks like he must have done that himself rather than leaving it to his publicists - duh!

He's going to give them sexy back.

[leicsmac]

2 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Any possibility that the Israeli government ignored this information knowing that it would give them an excuse to attack Gaza, maybe they thought the attack would be less severe? Which would be very ironic, given Hitler did similar to justify his attack on the Jews. This is I admit, wild speculation and therefore probably not helpful, but I do wonder why they ignored this.

 

I also note both sides describing the other side as animals. When you don't see people as human, it's much easier to kill them. It's basically what serial killers do. Thousands of serial pillar on both side, wound up and ready to go .

 

Hamas started this (at least as a physical conflict of arms since previous encounters), but almost certainly Israel will finish it, but at a terrible cost.

Yeah, that's a time-honoured method of waging war.

 

Infidel, heretic, animal, cockroach, terrorist, untermensch...all of these and more have been used to justify mass killing.

[HighPeakFox]

5 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

He's going to give them sexy back.

I think you have the wrong artiste....

[st albans fox]

4 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Any possibility that the Israeli government ignored this information knowing that it would give them an excuse to attack Gaza, maybe they thought the attack would be less severe? Which would be very ironic, given Hitler did similar to justify his attack on the Jews. This is I admit, wild speculation and therefore probably not helpful, but I do wonder why they ignored this.

 

I also note both sides describing the other side as animals. When you don't see people as human, it's much easier to kill them. It's basically what serial killers do. Thousands of serial pillar on both side, wound up and ready to go .

 

Hamas started this (at least as a physical conflict of arms since previous encounters), but almost certainly Israel will finish it, but at a terrible cost.

possible that someone  has made a judgement - the biggest error they’ll ever make in their life.  it may well have been arrogance to assume that Hamas couldn’t get men into Israel so whatever was planned would be dealt with by iron dome, I cant see that the upper echelons of Israeli govt would have made this call though. Not without having made some preparations to be able to counter quickly.  If it was simply wanting an excuse to remove Hamas, allowing thousands of Hamas terrorists free reign across swathes of southern Israel would not be that. 
 

it’s more likely cock up rather than conspiracy 

[Trav Le Bleu]

22 minutes ago, HighPeakFox said:

I think you have the wrong artiste....

Oh yeah 

 

I do wonder what Mr Timberlake has to say though.

[st albans fox]

1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

....why are people asking that a news organisation created to report neutrally on world events and present reported facts rather than create a narrative (in theory if not necessarily in practice) pick sides in this matter?

 

I can see why John Simpson is pissed off.

I’d like to have seen the bbc news anchor ask him if he differentiates when he’s not working for the bbc. John has used ‘terrorist’ when tweeting in the past about France and the London Bridge attack (probably more).  I think he should have emphasised that whilst he believes that Hamas are terrorists, on a professional level when working for the bbc, he would not use that description for the reason stated. 

[breadandcheese]

42 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Any possibility that the Israeli government ignored this information knowing that it would give them an excuse to attack Gaza, maybe they thought the attack would be less severe? Which would be very ironic, given Hitler did similar to justify his attack on the Jews. This is I admit, wild speculation and therefore probably not helpful, but I do wonder why they ignored this.

 

I also note both sides describing the other side as animals. When you don't see people as human, it's much easier to kill them. It's basically what serial killers do. Thousands of serial pillar on both side, wound up and ready to go .

 

Hamas started this (at least as a physical conflict of arms since previous encounters), but almost certainly Israel will finish it, but at a terrible cost.

 

I wouldn't indulge in the wild conspiracy theories. It does no-one any good and just spreads rubbish. It was a cock-up. 

 

And it doesn't serve Netanyahu. It has ended his career. Finished. If you are wondering why there are no photo ops of Netanyahu or his government meeting victims of the atrocity or visiting the parts of Israel where the murderous barbarity occurred, it's because Netanyahu and his cabinet would be lynched.  Think how many times you have seen terrorist attacks here or abroad and members of government would want to be seen there for the photo op. This is not possible for Netanyahu.

Edited 11 October 2023 by breadandcheese