Cooper - OUT

[Webbo]

1 hour ago, Mike the Metal Ed said:

 

 

Cooper still won't build a solid foundation here no matter how much we will it that it he could. 

How do you know that after 8 games? 

[Mike the Metal Ed]

2 minutes ago, Webbo said:

How do you know that after 8 games? 

I don't. I can't see the future else I'd be very rich.

 

But even his fans on here can only point to "the goal is to stay up this season" and thinking nothing beyond that.

 

I just don't see any semblance of a long term plan from the manager or anyone above him. If there is one feel free to explain it, I'm very open minded.

[pmcla26]

Biggest concern for me is that he's come into the club, had pre-season to work with the players and also the opportunity to watch last season back and he's failed to identify who some of our best players are and left them out, whilst also changing the system. 

 

Basically the opposite of what Ranieri did when he came in. It wasn't broke, don't know why he thought we need to change. It's no coincidence that we played the way we did in the second half on Saturday with Fatawu and Mavididi on at the same time and the team playing the closest style/resemblance to last season that we have for all of this one so far. 

[Webbo]

14 minutes ago, Mike the Metal Ed said:

I don't. I can't see the future else I'd be very rich.

 

But even his fans on here can only point to "the goal is to stay up this season" and thinking nothing beyond that.

 

I just don't see any semblance of a long term plan from the manager or anyone above him. If there is one feel free to explain it, I'm very open minded.

Staying up is the most important thing, but that doesn't mean he isn't building for the future. He's had 1 transfer window with the threat of a points deduction that's supposedly put some players off. Give the bloke a chance

 

[dmayne7]

Might have already been posted but I find the final paragraph quite interesting. He actually seems to acknowledge that we're not a club that should be in a relegation scrap, although that of course is the reality this year and what we're all focused on.

 

Still, feels like the first bit of 'ambition' he has shown since he's been here

[Finnegan]

2 minutes ago, dmayne7 said:

He actually seems to acknowledge that we're not a club that should be in a relegation scrap

 

Saying the right thing to satisfy and connect with the fans has never been Cooper’s problem. 

 

His problem is following up on his words. 

 

It's one thing to imply we shouldn't be in a relegation scrap but if you then go and set your team up every week to be passive, defensive and cowardly against even the worst teams in the competition then it doesn't mean much. 

[pmcla26]

5 minutes ago, dmayne7 said:

Might have already been posted but I find the final paragraph quite interesting. He actually seems to acknowledge that we're not a club that should be in a relegation scrap, although that of course is the reality this year and what we're all focused on.

 

Still, feels like the first bit of 'ambition' he has shown since he's been here

I think he usually talks well but I cringe every time he talks about us being newly-promoted or fighting against relegation. Most of our squad have spent the majority of their careers playing top-flight football. He doesn't need to mention it in every interview/presser he does. 

[trooky]

2 hours ago, Graceroad said:

How did he fail got them promoted  from nowhere  kept them up and they weren't  in the bottom 3 when he got sacked

He was sacked because of poor performance = failure.

 

Cooper's premier league record including us:- 63 games, 14 wins, 19 draws and 30 losses. 67 goals scored with 112 conceded.

 

0.96 pts per game equals relegation battle every year.

 

Not good enough for Forest, he definitely isn't good enough for us.

Edited 21 October 2024 by trooky

[Chrysalis]

2 hours ago, Mike the Metal Ed said:

I don't. I can't see the future else I'd be very rich.

 

But even his fans on here can only point to "the goal is to stay up this season" and thinking nothing beyond that.

 

I just don't see any semblance of a long term plan from the manager or anyone above him. If there is one feel free to explain it, I'm very open minded.

I will try.

 

Pragmatic means you not welded to one way of playing.  Obviously if you expecting us to only play one way, then yes you wont like a pragmatic manager.

 

There is also a wider issue, that managers that want to play a specific way need an expensive squad with players suited for that style, you seen how the summer transfer window went right?  If you want to play a specific way, you dont just employ the manager and expect players to be shoehorned into playing that way, you need the squad and budget for it as well.

 

We only need to look at Southampton and Burnley to see what happens when you put football ideology above results, maybe you prefer losing games and getting relegated, I dont know on that one what you want.

 

I find it odd we employ a pragmatic manager and people are making comments like "I cant figure out what he wants to do", well yeah, thats the idea, we not stuck to a single way.  Also what works in one part of one game doesnt mean its the key to every other game, I see all the cries that Fatawa should start after a good 30 minutes.  Yet earlier in the season he looked lost.  I have faith in the manager to use the right players at the right time.

 

It is one step at a time.  Learn to walk before you can run and all that.

Edited 21 October 2024 by Chrysalis

[Claridge]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

 

Saying the right thing to satisfy and connect with the fans has never been Cooper’s problem. 

 

His problem is following up on his words. 

 

It's one thing to imply we shouldn't be in a relegation scrap but if you then go and set your team up every week to be passive, defensive and cowardly against even the worst teams in the competition then it doesn't mean much. 

Does if you aren't in a relegation scrap  because of it

[trooky]

2 hours ago, Mike the Metal Ed said:

 

 

But even his fans on here can only point to "the goal is to stay up this season" and thinking nothing beyond that.

 

I think that goal was when we were expecting a points deduction, now the target should be higher. We have some decent players in the right system.

[VG Fox]

5 minutes ago, trooky said:

I think that goal was when we were expecting a points deduction, now the target should be higher. We have some decent players in the right system.

Totally agree

[Dahnsouff]

9 minutes ago, trooky said:

I think that goal was when we were expecting a points deduction, now the target should be higher. We have some decent players in the right system.

Those expectations were set when the manager appointment was made against the troublesome backdrop at the time. Without those distractions, you can easily see how someone like Potter would have arrived.

This does not mean Cooper cannot (and should not) aim for more, for his own progression if nothing else, but to reset expectations whilst changing nothing is hopeful I would suggest, as nothing has really changed beyond what could be described as a minor over performance against original expectations.
 

Maybe that means we got the original expectations wrong, as that begins to seems likely on the current trajectory.  

[The Doctor]

45 minutes ago, Chrysalis said:

I will try.

 

Pragmatic means you not welded to one way of playing.  Obviously if you expecting us to only play one way, then yes you wont like a pragmatic manager.

 

There is also a wider issue, that managers that want to play a specific way need an expensive squad with players suited for that style, you seen how the summer transfer window went right?  If you want to play a specific way, you dont just employ the manager and expect players to be shoehorned into playing that way, you need the squad and budget for it as well.

 

We only need to look at Southampton and Burnley to see what happens when you put football ideology above results, maybe you prefer losing games and getting relegated, I dont know on that one what you want.

 

I find it odd we employ a pragmatic manager and people are making comments like "I cant figure out what he wants to do", well yeah, thats the idea, we not stuck to a single way.  Also what works in one part of one game doesnt mean its the key to every other game, I see all the cries that Fatawa should start after a good 30 minutes.  Yet earlier in the season he looked lost.  I have faith in the manager to use the right players at the right time.

 

It is one step at a time.  Learn to walk before you can run and all that.

he's not a pragmatic manager. he's as dogmatic as Enzo was, just about a different style of play (defensive solidity and then catching chances when the opponents lag). When we say we can't see what the plan is, it's because the plan is not particularly well thought out and is not well coached.

[pmcla26]

Just now, The Doctor said:

he's not a pragmatic manager. he's as dogmatic as Enzo was, just about a different style of play (defensive solidity and then catching chances when the opponents lag). When we say we can't see what the plan is, it's because the plan is not particularly well thought out and is not well coached.

If he was pragmatic then he would have adapted his style of play and coaching methods to resemble what we were doing last season, rather than signing below average players like Reid and Ayew to try force his way to work. 

[Richard]

The long term is plan is for him to keep us up this season then bin him off at the first opportunity next season when we have more cash to attract someone better

[dr.o.ball]

3 hours ago, fleckneymike said:

Come and sit next to me. I think he’s ****ing useless

😂 Each to his own, I was being honest from my point of view, sa'll good 👍 

[Finnegan]

51 minutes ago, Chrysalis said:

managers that want to play a specific way need an expensive squad

 

No they don't. This is nonsense on several different levels. There are clubs doing well in almost every country that haven't spent billions building their squad but have an identity.

 

You can also look at it another way and look at how Enzo got a tune out of Ndidi, Hamza, KDH and co' playing his brand of football just with good coaching when plenty of people said they weren't technically gifted enough to pull it off. 

 

57 minutes ago, Chrysalis said:

Southampton and Burnley to see what happens when you put football ideology above results

 

Southampton and Burnley had and have poor squads. Our squad was better last year in the Championship than Burnley's was in the Premier League. On top of that, Russell Martin is a distinctly average manager that I wouldn't want here over Cooper. 

 

Brighton, Fulham, Bournemouth and Brentford have all gotten promoted and all found Premier League security by recruitment intelligently and playing progressive, confident football that is enjoyable to watch.

 

The idea that you have to play some sort of "PrAgMaTiC" (read: negative), cowardly Dycheball to survive as a Newly Promoted Team™ is objectively false. 

 

1 hour ago, Chrysalis said:

"I cant figure out what he wants to do",

 

Not a single person critical of Cooper's tactical decision making is saying this because he's changing it up or being "versatile", they're saying it because it often looks like there isn't a plan and there's a significant lack of cohesion in our play. 

 

They're saying it because he's having us try to build out from the back and he's claiming that the approach is still the same as last year but that he's taken away a lot of the foundation and building blocks that made that work as if he doesn't understand why it was succesful in the first place. 

 

Bless him, @StriderHiryu has written chapter and verse already on this this season not because Cooper's methods are so genius we can't perceive them but because they're chaotic, often contradictory and just poor. 

 

1 hour ago, Chrysalis said:

all the cries that Fatawa should start after a good 30 minutes.  Yet earlier in the season he looked lost

 

Earlier in the season he was absolutely isolated because Cooper disassembled a well structured and balanced attacking shape and turned it in to a negative and confusing mess. 

 

Against Southampton he came on in to a team that was getting bodies forward, had a number of other attacking threats for Southampton to have to contend with and was put out there to hold his width and attack his full back while other attacking players filled the middle of the park and tied up the defence, exactly as he was deployed last season and what a surprise! It worked! Shock of all shocks! 

 

Look, I get it, we don't have a squad that's going to go toe to toe with the top half, we aren't the same club that could push to compete for top 5 finishes anymore, there's obviously got to be adjustment. 

 

None of us expect the team to be walking the league or able to Barcelona our way through the Prem like it's easy. Some adjustment to the style of play was inevitable. Nobody is butt hurt about that. 

 

But you've got to be absolutely blind or watching the games pretty sauced up on a Saturday to not have problems with the performances under Cooper, in particular the first half showings where time and again we look lost and confused with no structure or plan. 

 

Not every club is going to just melt down and give us points like Southampton did when he's forced to take the shackles off and let the players go back to what they know (which, by the way, every time he's done that we've finally looked dangerous in games.)

 

[Finnegan]

Oh and another note on "pragmatism" being equated to versatility and playing more than one way, Arne Slot was asked before the Brentford game what he thought were their strengths and weaknesses. 

 

He said what made Brentford dangerous was that they've had a manager and a group of players together for so long that they can have had time to work on different systems, formations and patterns of play to mix it up because when you're new to a club just simply drilling one formation or style is hard enough and takes a lot of time. 

 

This idea that Cooper is somehow just this "pragmatic" (I really hate the way that word is being misused on this forum) manager that's versatile and is going to change the plan for every opponent is just ****ing stupid. 

 

For a start, no he isn't and there's been no evidence of it so far, we've done basically the same thing in every game and for seconds it'd be a daft thing to try and do anyway when he's been here for a few months. 

 

[FOXSE]

Fun fact:

 

In the 2015/16 season, ranieri started schlupp and de laet as our fullbacks. We kept no clean sheets and in the eight game we lost 5-2 at home to arsenal.

 

So he made a change: for the next game against Norwich, he swapped both full backs to fuchs and Simpson, forming a back 4 with huth and morgan which any fan would name as our back four in 'our starting 11 in the season we won the league'.

 

For that Norwich game, de laet was dropped. But sclupp retained his starting place by being moved forward to the wing, with Mahrez dropping out.

 

So let's just keep in mind it is still relatively early in the season, we have an OK points total, and a new manager who may still find his best starting 11.

[CrazyKopCorner]

4 hours ago, pmcla26 said:

Biggest concern for me is that he's come into the club, had pre-season to work with the players and also the opportunity to watch last season back and he's failed to identify who some of our best players are and left them out, whilst also changing the system. 

 

Basically the opposite of what Ranieri did when he came in. It wasn't broke, don't know why he thought we need to change. It's no coincidence that we played the way we did in the second half on Saturday with Fatawu and Mavididi on at the same time and the team playing the closest style/resemblance to last season that we have for all of this one so far. 

Spot on - Some of the shite he does is just bizarre 

[howlinmadmurfdoc]

I’d love to see a cross section of the people who wanted Enzo out last season and Cooper this season. We’re still suffering from the fallout of Rodgers and Rudkin and the fact that we are picking up results this season can’t be anything but a good thing. We’ve added some exciting young players and some decent experience, it’s not pretty but Rodgers tried pretty football and we ended up getting relegated for it.

Once upon a time coming back from 2 goals down to win a game at the death would have had the fan base on top of the world, now it’s just used as a stick to beat a bloke that’s been here for 9 games. 2016 ruined us as a fan base. 

[safetosurfthisbeach]

1 hour ago, howlinmadmurfdoc said:

I’d love to see a cross section of the people who wanted Enzo out last season and Cooper this season. We’re still suffering from the fallout of Rodgers and Rudkin and the fact that we are picking up results this season can’t be anything but a good thing. We’ve added some exciting young players and some decent experience, it’s not pretty but Rodgers tried pretty football and we ended up getting relegated for it.

Once upon a time coming back from 2 goals down to win a game at the death would have had the fan base on top of the world, now it’s just used as a stick to beat a bloke that’s been here for 9 games. 2016 ruined us as a fan base. 

"2016 ruined us as a fan base".

So true. Most of the Cooper Out brigade are deluded. 

[sylofox]

https://www.leicestercity.news/news/patrick-bamford-admits-he-was-absolutely-blown-away-by-14m-leicester-player-last-season/

 

But cooper don't think he's really upto it yet. But that can only happen by playing games not sat on the bench.

[pmcla26]

1 hour ago, howlinmadmurfdoc said:

I’d love to see a cross section of the people who wanted Enzo out last season and Cooper this season. We’re still suffering from the fallout of Rodgers and Rudkin and the fact that we are picking up results this season can’t be anything but a good thing. We’ve added some exciting young players and some decent experience, it’s not pretty but Rodgers tried pretty football and we ended up getting relegated for it.

Once upon a time coming back from 2 goals down to win a game at the death would have had the fan base on top of the world, now it’s just used as a stick to beat a bloke that’s been here for 9 games. 2016 ruined us as a fan base. 

Not once did I want Enzo out last season, but I've not been impressed with Cooper. 

5 minutes ago, safetosurfthisbeach said:

"2016 ruined us as a fan base".

So true. Most of the Cooper Out brigade are deluded. 

I don't think many people are actively calling for him to be sacked, or that they dislike him, but there are obvious issues with the way he's setting us up and the tactics he is employing not best suiting the players, and it becomes concerning when these areas seem obvious to us and what to do to fix them, but not to the man being paid to make the calls.