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Daggers

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By Daggers, in General Chat

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Sampson

Sampson

Posted
Posted
14 minutes ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, that's things as they are. Corruption is a simple fact, but the more it's accepted, the more it grows.

I think things like corruption, democratic backsliding and populism win in the end, bit by bit, over generations. Like, we saw how angry Labour and many Labour supporters were at the last Tory governments bills which let them revoke citizenship from people who have dual citizenship and to give the Home Secretary the power to shut down any protest they like and to send protesters to prison, but they’ve done nothing to indicate they’re planning on reversing these changes now they’re in power. These policies are likely in place for the long run now. 

leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Sampson said:

I think things like corruption, democratic backsliding and populism win in the end, bit by bit, over generations. Like, we saw how angry Labour and many Labour supporters were at the last Tory governments bills which let them revoke citizenship from people who have dual citizenship and to give the Home Secretary the power to shut down any protest they like and to send protesters to prison, but they’ve done nothing to indicate they’re planning on reversing these changes now they’re in power. These policies are likely in place for the long run now. 

... and then, every eighty to a hundred years or so, all of it comes to a head in the worst possible way.

Trav Le Bleu

Trav Le Bleu

Posted
Posted

Here's what I don't get about the apologising for slavery, the fact that every nation, people or tribe has at some time used other people as slaves.

 

It just smack of nations wanting easy money. Apology not accepted, unless it comes with money. Of course slavery cost these people, but it's very hard to quantify when on the flipside some descendants of slavery have done very well for themselves.

  • Like 3
leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
26 minutes ago, Trav Le Bleu said:

Here's what I don't get about the apologising for slavery, the fact that every nation, people or tribe has at some time used other people as slaves.

 

It just smack of nations wanting easy money. Apology not accepted, unless it comes with money. Of course slavery cost these people, but it's very hard to quantify when on the flipside some descendants of slavery have done very well for themselves.

It's a difficult one, particularly when different exponents of slavery did it on different scales and have different levels of benefit from it today. The differing levels on inequality between those asked and those doing the asking speaks for itself.

 

There's no real right answer or right course of action here, I fear, except the idea that the UK and other developed nations perhaps should be doing as much as they can to help developing nations with their development. Are they doing as much as they can?

 

bovril

bovril

Posted
Posted

The UK in some areas is starting to resemble a failed state, so I'm not sure there's much we can and should be doing to help developing nations.

 

The reparations stuff is quite funny because it wasn't that long ago that people were arguing we needed to leave the EU to "reinvigorate the commonwealth" and now those same people are gobsmacked that the commonwealth is trying to fleece us for as much as they can. 

  • Like 1
Dunge

Dunge

Posted
Posted

I always think the elephant in the room with the issue of slavery is simply money.

 

I heard the other day that reparations could be calculated as 18 trillion pounds. I don’t think we could pay that even if we wanted to. The very act of doing it would destroy the currency and bankrupt the country. If reparations were calculated as 18 million then we’d have paid it and offered a full and heartfelt apology years ago.

Foxdiamond

Foxdiamond

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Dunge said:

I always think the elephant in the room with the issue of slavery is simply money.

 

I heard the other day that reparations could be calculated as 18 trillion pounds. I don’t think we could pay that even if we wanted to. The very act of doing it would destroy the currency and bankrupt the country. If reparations were calculated as 18 million then we’d have paid it and offered a full and heartfelt apology years ago.

Agreed. Obviously regret the past. When the country was engaged in the slave trade  many of our ancestors did not have a vote and were living in abject poverty and ended up in the workhouse. 

  • Like 1
bovril

bovril

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Dunge said:

I heard the other day that reparations could be calculated as 18 trillion pounds. I don’t think we could pay that even if we wanted to. The very act of doing it would destroy the currency and bankrupt the country. If reparations were calculated as 18 million then we’d have paid it and offered a full and heartfelt apology years ago.

I think it's the other way round - even if we could pay it we shouldn't. 

  • Like 2
leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, bovril said:

The UK in some areas is starting to resemble a failed state, so I'm not sure there's much we can and should be doing to help developing nations.

 

I can see the broad argument.

 

Truth is though, for one thing, if these nations aren't helped to develop, the methods they use to develop will cause great harm to themselves and everyone else over time.

  • Like 1
grobyfox1990

grobyfox1990

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, bovril said:

The UK in some areas is starting to resemble a failed state, so I'm not sure there's much we can and should be doing to help developing nations.

 

The reparations stuff is quite funny because it wasn't that long ago that people were arguing we needed to leave the EU to "reinvigorate the commonwealth" and now those same people are gobsmacked that the commonwealth is trying to fleece us for as much as they can. 

Yeh but that’s like someone stealing all your family wealth, leaving you on the street, then fantastically f4cking up their stolen position of privilege as an excuse for not making good on their loot. 
Reparations would be way to hard to quantify so will never happen, would be a dream for advocates, forensic accountants and valuation tho. Great fees 

  • Like 1
bovril

bovril

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Yeh but that’s like someone stealing all your family wealth, leaving you on the street, then fantastically f4cking up their stolen position of privilege as an excuse for not making good on their loot. 
Reparations would be way to hard to quantify so will never happen, would be a dream for advocates, forensic accountants and valuation tho. Great fees 

That loot doesn't exist anymore. Modern wealth isn't based on slavery and empire. 

  • Like 1
bovril

bovril

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, grobyfox1990 said:

Yeh the loot is gone now because we f4cked it all down the river

Britain was almost bankrupt after WW2. 

Sampson

Sampson

Posted
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, bovril said:

Britain was almost bankrupt after WW2. 

Yeah and the US as an English speaking former colony helped prop up our economy through foreign aid and workers from the former British colonies in the Caribbean from the wind rush generation came to help rebuild the country in exchange for the promise and draw of lifelong residency in the UK. Not to mention UK forced labour camps existed still in for example Kenya long after WW2 ended. 

 

I think you’re being naive (somewhat deliberately I would guess, as I know you’re an intelligent person) if you can’t see how a a not insignificant amount of wealth for both the UK and other western nations came from and still continues comes from our place in the world built on former empires, colonialism and/or slavery - even if it comes through more nuanced soft influence such as selling romantic visions of our big cities to tourists built on resources which weren’t fairly compensated for to countries who had their resources directed away so the UK and other western nations could industrialise first.

 

It takes 100s of years to build up a nation and an average British person has a lot more than an average person in sub Saharan Africa for example, there are many reasons why, but a percentage of it, which is certainly not a non-existent percentage, is undoubtedly down to empire building, colonialism and slavery.

 

Of course it’s impossible to quantify so it will never happen, but I still have extreme sympathy for the nations who still are at the economic disadvantage caused by empire building and to say that the loot of empire doesn’t exist anymore is clearly just being wilfully provocative. 

Edited by Sampson
  • Like 3
bovril

bovril

Posted
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Sampson said:

Yeah and the US as an English speaking former colony helped prop up our economy through foreign aid and workers from the former British colonies in the Caribbean from the wind rush generation came to help rebuild the country in exchange for the promise and draw of lifelong residency in the UK. Not to mention UK forced labour camps existed still in for example Kenya long after WW2 ended. 

 

I think you’re being naive (somewhat deliberately I would guess, as I know you’re an intelligent person) if you can’t see how a a not insignificant amount of wealth for both the UK and other western nations came from and still continues comes from our place in the world built on former empires, colonialism and/or slavery - be it through soft influence such as selling romantic visions of our big cities to tourists built on resources which weren’t fairly compensated for to countries who had their resources directed away so the UK could industrialise first. 

 

Of course it’s impossible to quantify so it will never happen, but I still have extreme sympathy for the nations who still are at the economic disadvantage caused by empire building and to say that the loot of the empire doesn’t exist anymore is clearly just being wilfully provocative. 

Bit dubious of the claim that we industrialised first solely because other countries had their resources plundered though I haven't read much about that period.

 

Also I wouldn't be so sure that it will never happen. UK is a pretty weak country but also one that seems very invested in the idea of soft power and doing the right thing, so I can see some kind of transfer happening at some point in the future. 

Edited by bovril
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