Premier League has charged LCFC with an alleged breach of PSR

[hackneyfox]

5 hours ago, Terraloon said:

 

The last bit of bad news is that if subsequent to the seasons end an IC panel finds that one clubs indiscretions has led to a final loss to another member club then they can award compensation as part of the process. In other words if say a points deduction due to be suffered in 24/25 didn’t happen till 25/25 a club such as Ipswich could be awarded say £3.5 million even if the league table isn’t altered.

 

 

You really are a prophet of doom,  it sure that I’ve ever seen you post anything vaguely positive about our situation.

 

With reference to your claim above how is it that we didn’t get awarded millions when we went down instead of Everton due to them not getting a points deduction that season.

Will we getting tens of millions due to Man City doing us out of CL qualification?

[urban.spaceman]

13 minutes ago, Terraloon said:

The breach save a few weeks was  in the period 1/7/3-30/6/24in effect the championship season hence why the PL charged LCFC using the EFL rules. 
 

At 30/6/24the point that any breach would have crystallised LC were a PL club and as we know fell under the jurisdiction of the PL .Indeed if you look at the case that the club argued previously their submission was that after PL share transfers from a relegated club to a promoted club that’s when jurisdiction begins/ends. I am not sure how De Marco can now be arguing a contrary argument.

 

There will be a debate as to who now prosecutes the case. My guess it will revert back to the EFL to finalise as it was there that the initial investigation started in March 24. If it doesn’t then it will be extremely interesting as to how any  sanction flows to the EFL. If you remember the EFL ( via Trevor Birch) initially and then very   quickly withdrew the suggestion that they had the rules in place to do just that .They didn’t!
 

I haven’t tracked any subsequent  EFL amendments but the suggestion was that following that realisation in late 23 early 24 that the EFL rules would be amended. 
 

As I said before I think the PLs charges around submission of accounts and non co operation are there as much as anything to illustrate aggravating factors.

I very much doubt the club would have done the former without strong legal advice - as I said a few posts above, we refused to submit a business plan to the EFL on De Marco's advice that we didn't have to according to the rules. He was proven right and I suspect he will be in this case too.

 

Alleging non-cooperation is an absurdity too - if they are indeed demanding things they're not supposed to be demanding why should we cooperate with that?

 

Furthermore, this is a passage from the panel in the Everton case ruling: 

"In this case, we have read and considered with care the parties’ submissions in this respect, set out above at paragraph 159 above and not repeated here. In our view, many if not most of the criticisms levelled against the Club in this respect by the PL are unwarranted, overstated, or both. In our view, the Club has indeed cooperated with the PL in the presentation of these proceedings according to the Standard Directions (to which the Club consented from the outset) albeit in a manner that protected (quite properly) the interests of the Club."

 

I don't trust a single thing the Premier League does. 

[em9999]

If man city are found guilty they will be sued by more clubs than us

[urban.spaceman]

7 minutes ago, hackneyfox said:

You really are a prophet of doom,  it sure that I’ve ever seen you post anything vaguely positive about our situation.

 

With reference to your claim above how is it that we didn’t get awarded millions when we went down instead of Everton due to them not getting a points deduction that season.

Will we getting tens of millions due to Man City doing us out of CL qualification?

Half a billion and rising. 

[Clever Fox]

2 minutes ago, em9999 said:

If man city are found guilty they will be sued by more clubs than us

This I feel is what has the Premier League running scared of their findings and charges.

 

For that reason I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to make their findings private and not for public viewing.

[em9999]

2 minutes ago, Clever Fox said:

This I feel is what has the Premier League running scared of their findings and charges.

 

For that reason I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to make their findings private and not for public viewing.

I suspect they will get sued by a number of clubs if any preferential treatment appears to have been given 

[Clever Fox]

1 minute ago, em9999 said:

I suspect they will get sued by a number of clubs if any preferential treatment appears to have been given 

Lets hope do.

 

The Regulator cant be appointed soone enough for me.

[urban.spaceman]

8 minutes ago, Clever Fox said:

This I feel is what has the Premier League running scared of their findings and charges.

 

For that reason I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to make their findings private and not for public viewing.

 

5 minutes ago, em9999 said:

I suspect they will get sued by a number of clubs if any preferential treatment appears to have been given 

 

2 minutes ago, Clever Fox said:

Lets hope do.

 

The Regulator cant be appointed soone enough for me.

The only reason they've gone after us, Everton and Forest so vehemently is to try and prove they don't need a football regular and can handle things in-house.

 

But in doing so, they've made a rod for their own back and now CAN'T let Man City get away with anything without a backlash. They HAVE to relegate them. 

[Guest Bilo]

The whole mess makes me think that PSR is not long for this world.

 

Endless appeals and challenges, legal cases after the fact by clubs who can reasonably say they were disadvantaged by breaches of those around them - for example, if Manchester City get a massive deduction, then we could reasonably pursue the PL and/or Manchester City for the financial impact of missing out on Champions League football to a club who cheated. Then Leeds could sue us, Everton and Forest for the 22-23 season. Then Leeds could sue us again for 23-24. We could sue Forest and Everton for the 22-23 season as well on the same basis. All those legal cases, and that's just involving us!

 

Then we have leagues being at least partially determined off the pitch and the fact that Championship clubs being promoted are finding it increasingly difficult to compete, meaning that final day dogfights to survive will increasingly become a thing of the past, thus limiting the excitement and jeopardy that makes the Premier League exciting, lessening the quality of 'the product' to markets. The final Champions League spot side, where is the excitement this final day? Relegation spots decided for weeks, same with the Premier League title, FA Cup and Carabao Cup done and dusted. 16 out of 20 clubs on the final day with absolutely nothing to play for. If it continues along those lines, the public will lose interest. 

Edited 25 May 2025 by Bilo

[Pliskin]

5 hours ago, Terraloon said:

The last bit of bad news is that if subsequent to the seasons end an IC panel finds that one clubs indiscretions has led to a final loss to another member club then they can award compensation as part of the process. In other words if say a points deduction due to be suffered in 24/25 didn’t happen till 25/25 a club such as Ipswich could be awarded say £3.5 million even if the league table isn’t altered.

 

 

But this is where the whole process falls on its arse. Relegation from the premier league is a massive issue, particularly for clubs like us…. So Everton and Forest both stay up, and we go down twice in three years? Surely we have the same argument? We lost out where others benefitted…. 

[Guest Bilo]

4 minutes ago, Pliskin said:

But this is where the whole process falls on its arse. Relegation from the premier league is a massive issue, particularly for clubs like us…. So Everton and Forest both stay up, and we go down twice in three years? Surely we have the same argument? We lost out where others benefitted…. 

I would say our argument would be very strong here as both Everton and Forest certainly cheated in that window, hence their points deduction, while we were effectively exonerated in that window due to De Marco's work. The fact that the two sides directly above us broke the rules is hugely significant because, had one or both been deducted the points they were later, we'd have finished 16th.

[Jattdogg]

10 minutes ago, Bilo said:

The whole mess makes me think that PSR is not long for this world.

 

Endless appeals and challenges, legal cases after the fact by clubs who can reasonably say they were disadvantaged by breaches of those around them - for example, if Manchester City get a massive deduction, then we could reasonably pursue the PL and/or Manchester City for the financial impact of missing out on Champions League football to a club who cheated. Then Leeds could sue us, Everton and Forest for the 22-23 season. Then Leeds could sue us again for 23-24. We could sue Forest and Everton for the 22-23 season as well on the same basis. All those legal cases, and that's just involving us!

 

Then we have leagues being at least partially determined off the pitch and the fact that Championship clubs being promoted are finding it increasingly difficult to compete, meaning that final day dogfights to survive will increasingly become a thing of the past, thus limiting the excitement and jeopardy that makes the Premier League exciting, lessening the quality of 'the product' to markets. The final Champions League spot side, where is the excitement this final day? Relegation spots decided for weeks, same with the Premier League title, FA Cup and Carabao Cup done and dusted. 16 out of 20 clubs on the final day with absolutely nothing to play for. If it continues along those lines, the public will lose interest. 

Hard and soft salary caps, with restrictions on the number of "max salary" players you can have will help push players to other teams and even the playing field (to a point). It's not  a perfect answer or solution but way better than what we currently have.

 

Further,  European places should be minimized to only champions league for the champion only. Prize money should be enough to cover travel, stay and a decent chunk for progressing but nothing absurd. 

 

Lets get ticket prices down, player salaries more in line with reality and TV deals minimal so tv packages aren't a fecking joke for sport.

 

Let me put my pipe back down...

Edited 25 May 2025 by Jattdogg

[Clever Fox]

14 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

 

 

The only reason they've gone after us, Everton and Forest so vehemently is to try and prove they don't need a football regular and can handle things in-house.

 

But in doing so, they've made a rod for their own back and now CAN'T let Man City get away with anything without a backlash. They HAVE to relegate them. 

Let's hope so. At least that wouls show they are being somewhat fair in their decision making.

[Guest Bilo]

3 minutes ago, Jattdogg said:

Hard and soft salary caps, with restrictions on the number of "max salary" players you can have will help push players to other teams and even the playing field (to a point). It's not  a perfect answer or solution but way better than what we currently have.

 

Further,  European places should be minimized to only champions league for the champion only. Prize money should be enough to cover travel, stay and a decent chunk for progressing but nothing absurd. 

 

Lets get ticket prices down, player salaries more in line with reality and TV deals minimal so tv packages aren't a fecking joke for sport.

 

Let me put my pipe back down...

If the outcome of PSR is that the top 17 are effectively locked into the Premier League, it's objectively terrible for the sport.

 

Nobody can be ambitious, take a gamble or 'do a Leicester' ever again. Big clubs in the Championship cannot currently look at the next five years and say with any confidence that they can get promoted and have a real go at establishing themselves. Most will see it as a financial decision; they'll want to go up, bank the prize money, accept relegation and then either invest the parachute payments in infrastructure or ensure long-term stability at Championship level.

 

Luton may have been double relegated, but a club that was in non-league 10 years ago will get the brand new stadium they've wanted for thirty or forty years and financial stability. The bank manager is delighted, but not so much the fans. Where's this generation's Leicester coming from? Or a new Bournemouth, Brentford, Palace or Fulham? Modest clubs coming up and establishing themselves at the top level or, in our case, performing absolute miracles? 

 

I agree with you- salary caps, expenditure caps related to that of the lowest spending club, shrink the Champions League and grow the Europa League with some actual quality (because six English teams, including fifth in the Prem, is an absolute nonsense) and stop the closed shop with TV deals - open it up to online streaming services such as Netflix, reintroducing Amazon Prime or even YouTube and Rakuten. Make it competitive so fans don't have to spend a ridiculous amount on TV deals but clubs still get a decent amount. Lower the ticket prices, especially for home fans seeing the likes of Liverpool and Arsenal play, and make it the sport we all fell in love with.

[davieG]

Not sure if true

 

Derek Katey Caesar  ·

Follow

 

Manchester United’s total debt, including around £300M owing on transfers, is now in excess of £1BN.

Although the club is set to generate up to £160M this year from day-to-day activities, it means there will still be a 6th consecutive year of losses = £450M. (MailSport)

[Jattdogg]

15 minutes ago, davieG said:

Not sure if true

 

Derek Katey Caesar  ·

Follow

 

Manchester United’s total debt, including around £300M owing on transfers, is now in excess of £1BN.

Although the club is set to generate up to £160M this year from day-to-day activities, it means there will still be a 6th consecutive year of losses = £450M. (MailSport)

But hey,  go after the smaller clubs.

[Terraloon]

1 hour ago, hackneyfox said:

You really are a prophet of doom,  it sure that I’ve ever seen you post anything vaguely positive about our situation.

 

With reference to your claim above how is it that we didn’t get awarded millions when we went down instead of Everton due to them not getting a points deduction that season.

Will we getting tens of millions due to Man City doing us out of CL qualification?

I haven’t posted anything positive because in truth a I am struggling to see how this will end in anything but tears.

 

The impact of Everton’s deductions and possible compensation is still on going but whereas the initial claims were being made by 6 clubs, including LCFC, the matter and rulings to date have eliminated 5 clubs from having grounds to claim and that club is Burnley. 

 

It’s quite possible if Man City get found guilty then a whole queue of clubs will be seeking compensation 

 

My point I was trying to make is that is in the gift of any IC to decide on compensation.It might or might not happen but it’s in the process

1 hour ago, Clever Fox said:

This I feel is what has the Premier League running scared of their findings and charges.

 

For that reason I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to make their findings private and not for public viewing.

The written reasons will be published  once the IC has issued them. 

 

40 minutes ago, Clever Fox said:

Let's hope so. At least that wouls show they are being somewhat fair in their decision making.

Funnily enough relegation isn’t one of the sanctions available to a PL commission.

 

A massive points deduction if one is awarded may bring about relegation and as a consequence the EFL would have to accept them as a club but if Man C get expelled then there isn’t a requirement that they be accepted by the EFL be it in the Championship or indeed even at Division 2. 
 

48 minutes ago, Bilo said:

I would say our argument would be very strong here as both Everton and Forest certainly cheated in that window, hence their points deduction, while we were effectively exonerated in that window due to De Marco's work. The fact that the two sides directly above us broke the rules is hugely significant because, had one or both been deducted the points they were later, we'd have finished 16th.

There is / was nothing stopping City making a claim for compensation . 

[Lambert09]

So we essentially need to make sure we finish above Ipswich today for it to be a consideration whether they take the points this season… and we’ve still gone with this line up 

 

 

[lcfc sheff]

Logically I just can’t see how we should be deducted points or fined when we’ve been affected directly by Man City cheating the league and costing us the champions league places twice? It’s a chain of events that has then made our club unsustainable. 
 

players less likely to renew contracts, harder to sell to avoid financial issues etc etc as much as I blame the club the league is also responsible 

[Lambert09]

9 hours ago, lcfc sheff said:

Logically I just can’t see how we should be deducted points or fined when we’ve been affected directly by Man City cheating the league and costing us the champions league places twice? It’s a chain of events that has then made our club unsustainable. 
 

players less likely to renew contracts, harder to sell to avoid financial issues etc etc as much as I blame the club the league is also responsible 

This might be why they are trying to wrap up our case before announcing theirs 

[RyCleary]

Does this mean we sold KDH for no reason?

[Guest Bilo]

4 minutes ago, RyCleary said:

Does this mean we sold KDH for no reason?

Not necessarily. We could potentially frame his sale as an attempt to comply as part of a broader narrative. 

[Scotch]

So as far as I see it, if we have any hope of being fined THIS season, we need to hope this is all wrapped up and done with by Friday June 6th when we officially become a championship team. Is that right? 

[ClaphamFox]

Just now, Bilo said:

Not necessarily. We could potentially frame his sale as an attempt to comply as part of a broader narrative. 

Plus the level of breach will be lower than it would have been if we’d kept him. 

[Chrysalis]

On 25/05/2025 at 14:00, Clever Fox said:

This I feel is what has the Premier League running scared of their findings and charges.

 

For that reason I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to make their findings private and not for public viewing.

Happened in F1 with Ferrari a few years back.  Whatever was found and decided was kept behind closed doors.

 

I struggle to see an out come where anything significant happens to Man City, as it will make the league look bad.

 

Hearing concluded in December, that we have no announcement yet is weird in itself.  Is likely manipulation going on.

Edited 29 May 2025 by Chrysalis