Premier League has charged LCFC with an alleged breach of PSR

[davieG]

BBC

 

Football finance expert Kieran Maguire has estimated that Leicester City could be inline for a "seven-point deduction" for their latest breach of the Premier League's profitability and sustainability rules (PSR).

Speaking to BBC Sport's Charlie Slater about the situation, Maguire said: "If we use the Everton and Nottingham Forest cases as a starting point, they were given a set penalty plus an additional penalty, in terms of points, for the severity of the offence over the allowable limit.

"On the basis of that, we are probably looking at something like a seven-point deduction which if applied this season - and there's a case for saying it is too late - would result in Leicester City probably dropping from 18th to 19th position in the Premier League.

"The reason why it might have to be applied to this season is because you get around about £3.5m per place in the Premier League. Therefore, from the perspective of Ipswich Town, they would say they are entitled to an extra £3.5m and they would want this particular issue to be pursued."

Former Leicester City striker Matty Fryatt said the situation "doesn't look healthy" on the When You're Smiling podcast: "It certainly doesn't sound good initially.

"The club are the prime target number one because they used that loophole before to get out of the previous charge.

"The Premier League obviously deem it a breach of their rules so they are already after them. Then subsequently, because of relegation, the EFL will want a nibble as well because the club had previously breached their rules but went back up to the Premier League again.

"So, all in all, it is a mess. I do think both the Premier League and the EFL will be after Leicester City, especially after they were clever in getting out of the situation last time.

"It doesn't look healthy. I don't know whether the points deduction will be enforced for this season, which would probably play into Ipswich's favour for a bit of money, or if the EFL will go after Leicester City next season.

"I wonder if the EFL could even save the points deduction and use it the following season, if Leicester City get promoted next season? It is very messy and the club is prime target number one unfortunately."

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0lcwl9h

[lcfc sheff]

Just give us a points deduction this season and be done with it. 

[st albans fox]

I suspect Ipswich are run well enough to want a deduction applied to us next season rather than this 

[VLC86]

43 minutes ago, st albans fox said:

I suspect Ipswich are run well enough to want a deduction applied to us next season rather than this 

Id completely agree, gaining £3.5m from one place over an advantage to put them in a better position next season makes a lot less sense.

 

A deduction this season will make the league look pretty pathetic in all seriousness.

Edited 24 May 2025 by VLC86

[promised land]

47 minutes ago, Chrysalis said:

Its interesting fans of teams such as Leeds and Forest that have been found guilty and had previous point deductions are calling us cheaters when we havent been found guilty of anything, currently there is a witch hunt, but no proven breach of rules.

The EPL recently changed the rules all just for us, we that special now.  EFL and EPL are desperate to make something stick.

Meanwhile Chelsea can keep selling stuff to themselves, no issues with that, and Man City nothing is happening.

Also the determination to do something about something like a 19 million overspend, when a super league breakaway was just swept under the carpet, shows how messed up the game has got.

I am about done with football, Man City saga has just disappeared and how can Chelsea keep selling back to themselves? 

 

Reading DavieG post above mine I get the impression we will get points deducted this season as it says in bis post then the EFL will want us again next season.

 

Might just be my last season as a STH next season, non league has never looked more appealing.

[Guest Bilo]

1 hour ago, Chrysalis said:

I expect their plan is to do multiple charges amounting to small amounts for each one, but an overall larger deduction when added together, are they going to all this trouble for a 4-6 point deduction?

Which wouldn't wash as it would be seen as disproportionate- as when Everton received two penalties in the same season. First deduction was ten points, reduced to six on appeal, with the second deduction being only two points as a second six point deduction would be a disproportionate punishment. The outcome was an eight point deduction when the two were added. 

[urban.spaceman]

15 hours ago, ClaphamFox said:

Why do I get the feeling that we’ve got some legal arguments up our sleeve that will make this one just as complicated as our previous dealings with the PL and EFL?

 

15 hours ago, Clever Fox said:

 

Yes, I'd say it was legal advice. It wouldn't look right as if we claimed they didn't have jurisdiction over us, But then supplied the Accounts complying with their rules. 

IIRC De Marco advised us last season to not submit the business plan the EFL demanded from us, which they took us to an independent panel over. 
 

We won that case; I believe it was because we proved the EFL didn’t have the right to request it in an ongoing season when we weren’t in their league the season before. 
 

I think we will win this charge from the Premier League on the same principle as the accounts would relate to the previous season when we weren’t in their league either.

[OriginalRobboFOX]

46 minutes ago, VLC86 said:

Id completely agree, gaining £3.5m from one place over an advantage to put them in a better position next season makes a lot more sense.

 

A deduction this season will make the league look pretty pathetic in all seriousness.

I don’t think based on the current squad we would be much of a challenge to anyone next season and I’m sure Gamechanger 20 and Co will see this so if I was Ipswich I’d be hedging my bets and pushing for the extra £3.5m now - better to have than to not….

Edited 24 May 2025 by OriginalRobboFOX

[FrankieADZ]

think a 7 points deduction this season would be fair, the club will be stupid tho it will go over to next

[Guest Bilo]

2 minutes ago, FrankieADZ said:

think a 7 points deduction this season would be fair, the club will be stupid tho it will go over to next

It may even be a compromise. The PL get the points deduction they're looking for and show that the rules still have teeth and it knocks us down a position, but from our perspective it's not that damaging and enables us to go into the summer with a completely fresh sheet of paper.

[orangecity23]

Nice that the Premier League is thinking about the £3.5 million it might be worth to Ipswich. Shame they didn't consider the 40% of our entire turnover it cost us when they waited an eon to get around to punishing Everton and they stayed up by at our expense.

[kenny]

2 hours ago, orangecity23 said:

Nice that the Premier League is thinking about the £3.5 million it might be worth to Ipswich. Shame they didn't consider the 40% of our entire turnover it cost us when they waited an eon to get around to punishing Everton and they stayed up by at our expense.

We haven't yet gotten to a point whereby we need to present these type of arguments. We will also present Chelsea and Man city cases as examples. Nyoni to Liverpool will be bought up.

 

Probably the relegations and sales below market rates of our best players. Most of which have gone on to win trophies or play in Europe.

 

We will raise the increased costs of seagrave to develop players then being punished for the additional spend it takes to run it.

 

Anyone that thinks de Marco has finished at his first and easiest argument is in for a shock.

[Les-TA-Jon]

3 hours ago, orangecity23 said:

Nice that the Premier League is thinking about the £3.5 million it might be worth to Ipswich. Shame they didn't consider the 40% of our entire turnover it cost us when they waited an eon to get around to punishing Everton and they stayed up by at our expense.

Hang on, didn’t the PL want to charge us for 22/23? And that’s the loophole one. 
 

So had loophole not existed we would have also gotten a deduction? If so, hard to say that Everton stayed up at our expense. 
 

unless I’m mixing up my accounting periods , charges and rulings 

[orangecity23]

55 minutes ago, Les-TA-Jon said:

Hang on, didn’t the PL want to charge us for 22/23? And that’s the loophole one. 
 

So had loophole not existed we would have also gotten a deduction? If so, hard to say that Everton stayed up at our expense. 
 

unless I’m mixing up my accounting periods , charges and rulings 

We'd have got points deducted the following season, the one Everton had 2 deductions and Forest were also docked points (which they both survived, due to the low quality of the 3 promoted teams). We went down the season before that though - Everton's first charge took a very long time to come in, and if you recall, when they finally got it they complained like hell about getting 2 deductions in one year - if the case had been heard more promptly, it would have been a year earlier - before our first alleged breach, and they would be the ones stuck in the PSR doom loop we are now in.

 

So to sum it up:

 

Everton's first breach was for 21/22 season. They weren't punished until 23/24 season

We were relegated in 22/23, when we were alleged to have breached. We would have been punished in 23/24 if we had survived.

Forest breached in 22/23 and were punished in 23/24

Everton breached again in 22/23 and were punished in 23/24

 

Everton's first breach predated ours, they were allowed an extra year before punishment. This kept them up at our expense. We would have breached in 22/23 and been punished in 23/24, but "escaped" because of the relegation, at the low low cost of losing our Prem TV money, our best players at below market value, and getting caught in a never ending cycle that has been going on ever since where we will probably breach every year going forward because we have no squad value any more and still need to ditch duffers, but any attempt at saving money means we don't get Prem cash and end up making more losses.

Edited 24 May 2025 by orangecity23
riddledwith typos

[coolhandfox]

8 hours ago, st albans fox said:

I suspect Ipswich are run well enough to want a deduction applied to us next season rather than this 

Not their choice.

[Clever Fox]

2 hours ago, kenny said:

We haven't yet gotten to a point whereby we need to present these type of arguments. We will also present Chelsea and Man city cases as examples. Nyoni to Liverpool will be bought up.

 

Probably the relegations and sales below market rates of our best players. Most of which have gone on to win trophies or play in Europe.

 

We will raise the increased costs of seagrave to develop players then being punished for the additional spend it takes to run it.

 

Anyone that thinks de Marco has finished at his first and easiest argument is in for a shock.

I hope you are right on all counts.

[st albans fox]

Just now, coolhandfox said:

Not their choice.

Obviously- just saying that’s what they’d prefer 

[ClaphamFox]

This is interesting. Nick De Marco was out on the lash last night with Kieran Maguire. They seem to be good mates. I wonder if that’s got something to do with why Maguire seems so confident we’re more likely to get a points deduction this season rather than next…

 

 

Edited 24 May 2025 by ClaphamFox

[LCFCCKEANO]

I’d pay 3.5 million to start with 5-10 extra points next year without a question. We have enough sellable assets coming back from loan or within the squad to cover that

[Terraloon]

5 hours ago, orangecity23 said:

Nice that the Premier League is thinking about the £3.5 million it might be worth to Ipswich. Shame they didn't consider the 40% of our entire turnover it cost us when they waited an eon to get around to punishing Everton and they stayed up by at our expense.

The Premier league wanted the Everton case dealt with in season but Everton had made an application to have it delayed. The PL objected but the IC ruled in Everton’s favour and as a consequence it was delayed till the following season.

[FoxinNotts]

Are we clutching at straws here? Surely it isn’t possible for the points deduction to be applied this season?!

 

If it is, we should just bend over and take that punishment. Snap their hand off for that deal

[Terraloon]

15 hours ago, kenny said:

Edited 25 May 2025 by Terraloon

[Terraloon]

10 hours ago, FoxinNotts said:

Are we clutching at straws here? Surely it isn’t possible for the points deduction to be applied this season?!

 

If it is, we should just bend over and take that punishment. Snap their hand off for that deal

If you look at the process from issue of a charge, it’s not really called that but for all intents and purposes that’s what it is, there are quite a few stages that have to go through each with a set period  within.

 

For instance even at the first stage club have 14 days from the issue of the charge sheet to respond . There are still a significant number of stages before an IC will even start to consider matters one is where the club will have sight of the PLs case and the once a response is prepared the PL will have time to consider the clubs response.

 

My point is that it takes months even in an expedited process to get to the commissions written reasons being shared with the PL/Club and even at that stage it’s possible that there is more weeks no months needed to hear an appeal and even potentially arbitration.

 

Whilst  the PL can( very unlikely at this stage) offer a settlement that offer if agreed by the club still has to be put before an IC to agree. 
 

Time is very much against this process.

 

The last league games of the season are today as we all know. The league rules state clearly that the season ends at Midnight on the date that the last league game is played. That’s key because I can’t see any authority that allows a points deduction post midnight tonight and that is confirmed in the section dealing with an insolvency event post 25/3/25  where any points deduction/ sanction is made in 25/26 and for information if a club in the PL is unfortunate enough not just to be in such an event and also suffers relegation whilst still a PL club the sanction follows them to the EFL.

 

The last bit of bad news is that if subsequent to the seasons end an IC panel finds that one clubs indiscretions has led to a final loss to another member club then they can award compensation as part of the process. In other words if say a points deduction due to be suffered in 24/25 didn’t happen till 25/25 a club such as Ipswich could be awarded say £3.5 million even if the league table isn’t altered.

 

 

[Guest Bilo]

Given De Marco’s track record of successfully challenging PL and EFL charges (remember the previous cases where he got us off or reduced punishments?), I reckon the harshest penalties—like the rumoured 12-point deduction—are pretty unlikely to stick.

 

The PL wants to show they mean business, but a massive points deduction would be risky and likely get appealed. De Marco will lean on technical/legal grounds around jurisdiction and timing, especially since the breach period partly overlaps with relegation/promotion seasons.

 

We’re likely looking at a points deduction somewhere in the 4 to 7 points range, maybe combined with a fine or other restrictions. There will almost certainly be negotiation, with both sides wanting to avoid a protracted legal battle. So while it won’t be pleasant, it’s probably not a death sentence for our promotion hopes.

 

[Terraloon]

4 hours ago, Bilo said:

Given De Marco’s track record of successfully challenging PL and EFL charges (remember the previous cases where he got us off or reduced punishments?), I reckon the harshest penalties—like the rumoured 12-point deduction—are pretty unlikely to stick.

 

The PL wants to show they mean business, but a massive points deduction would be risky and likely get appealed. De Marco will lean on technical/legal grounds around jurisdiction and timing, especially since the breach period partly overlaps with relegation/promotion seasons.

 

We’re likely looking at a points deduction somewhere in the 4 to 7 points range, maybe combined with a fine or other restrictions. There will almost certainly be negotiation, with both sides wanting to avoid a protracted legal battle. So while it won’t be pleasant, it’s probably not a death sentence for our promotion hopes.

 

The breach save a few weeks was  in the period 1/7/23 - 30/6/24in effect the championship season hence why the PL charged LCFC using the EFL rules. Neither the EFL or the PL will , save a giving a view, have input into the final outcome. Of course the ICs findings and sanctions can be appealed but that applies to both club and the respective leagues.
 

At 30/6/24the point that any breach would have crystallised LC were a PL club and as we know fell under the jurisdiction of the PL .

 

Indeed if you look at the case that the club argued previously their submission was that after the  PL share transfers  from a relegated club to a promoted club that’s when  the PL jurisdiction begins/ends. I am not sure how De Marco can now be arguing that a different approach should apply particularly as an Arbitration panel has now ruled on the fact.

 

There will be a debate as to who now prosecutes the case. My concern is  it will revert back to the EFL to finalise for two reasons 1) LCFC will be a EFL club and 2) It was there that the initial investigation started in March 24. If it doesn’t then it will be extremely interesting as to how any  sanction flows to the EFL. If you remember the EFL ( via Trevor Birch) initially and then very   quickly withdrew the suggestion that they had the rules in place to do just that .They didn’t!
 

I haven’t tracked any subsequent  EFL amendments but the suggestion was that following that realisation in late 23 early 24 that the EFL rules would be amended. In reality if the EFL take over the matter then there in my mind is little room to argue .
 

As I said before I think the PLs charges around submission of accounts and non co operation are there as much as anything to illustrate aggravating factors.

 

I honestly take the view that the “ victories” that the cub won weren’t the ones that really matter  and all that has happened is that the day of judgement will now come when the likely impact will be far more  damaging and the impact will be over a longer period .

 

By that I suspect that a 24/25 charge under the PL rules is a real possibility but the expedited process means that it is likely in the 25/26 season.That means it is a real possibility that the 23/4 matter will likewise see a sanction in  25/26.

 

But the real kicker could  be if the EFL deem that a business plan is appropriate for 25/26 and unlike 23/24 the rules are now in place to ensure that should the league require one then the club have to supply the appropriate information to facilitate formation of one. 

Edited 25 May 2025 by Terraloon