Holloway's record on youth development

[Thracian]

I mentioned this in another thread but does anyone know what Holloway's record is on youth development at Plymouth and elsewhere?

[Webbo]

Wait till we lose a game, there'll be dozens of Plymouth fans on here to tell you.

[Nationwider]

If the youth teams at Bristol Rovers, QPR and Plymouth were just plain shit, with the world's worse youth team coaches - all of whom were personal friends of the directors - how will we accurately measure his youthydevelopmentness?

[Bryn]

Your best bet to find that out is QPR, they're the ones with the best academy out of his past clubs. Plymouth have brought a few through, but mainly signings from other clubs IE. Gosling from Torquay and Norris from Bolton.

[Jimmy]

I mentioned this in another thread but does anyone know what Holloway's record is on youth development at Plymouth and elsewhere?

didn't he début Ray Jones, definitely gave a début to Gosling

[Flynny]

Weren't we linked with a Plymouth right-back that came up through their academy? Can't remember the name, how old he is or whether Holloway brought him through into the first-team. Anyone help?

[Jimmy]

Weren't we linked with a Plymouth right-back that came up through their academy? Can't remember the name, how old he is or whether Holloway brought him through into the first-team. Anyone help?

the Plymouth RB we were linked with was Paul Connolly

[Plymouth Pete]

I mentioned this in another thread but does anyone know what Holloway's record is on youth development at Plymouth and elsewhere?

He was one of the best youth developers we had in years, Pulis was afraid to play them, Williamson bought in from Scotland. Ollie gave chanches to Dan Gosling (now Everton) Gary Sawyer, now first team regular. Luke Summerfield think he will make it. Also signed promising youngsters from Ireland, Scotland and Wales, still going through the system. Ryan Dickson now signed for Brentford. I think Gary Penrice did the scouting.

[Thracian]

He was one of the best youth developers we had in years, Pulis was afraid to play them, Williamson bought in from Scotland. Ollie gave chanches to Dan Gosling (now Everton) Gary Sawyer, now first team regular. Luke Summerfield think he will make it. Also signed promising youngsters from Ireland, Scotland and Wales, still going through the system. Ryan Dickson now signed for Brentford. I think Gary Penrice did the scouting.

Thanks PP.

[Ric Flair]

I've got high hopes that Holloway will develop Ashley Chambers in to one of the best young strikers in the league next season, I think Holloway knows he's on to something special with that lad.

[Geo V]

Why does it matter?

He may have been forced to play kids in previous teams due to lack of money to bring in players.

IF we are all honest, Leicester have been in a similar position having pushed the kids in maybe too early and a few years on, some have become injury prone due to the constant run of games like Weso and others are ripped apart due to our expectations, like say Stearman. Some of the others that have featured in bit parts or more like Levi, Odhiambo, Logan, Sheehan etc etc look now likely to be no more than squad players because it seems that Milan and Ollie`s plan is to add experience and try and get us back into the Premiership.

The truth is as talented as some of our kids are we will not be a successful team by building a team around them as ultimately at this stage they are nowhere near good enough.

[James.]

Why does it matter?

1. Nurturing talent can result in risk free profits from transfers.

2. Spotting talent early can give us a competitive advantage over other clubs.

3. Youth players such as Chambers could be a major part of our squad if not first team in 2 or 3 seasons.

4. We need to build on the recent success of the youth academy.

5. Blending youth and experience is often a recipe for success.

And there's more.

Holloway will pay a major part in these 5 points and these 5 points will play a major part in the medium-long term success of this club.

[Steven]

1. Nurturing talent can result in risk free profits from transfers.

2. Spotting talent early can give us a competitive advantage over other clubs.

3. Youth players such as Chambers could be a major part of our squad if not first team in 2 or 3 seasons.

4. We need to build on the recent success of the youth academy.

5. Blending youth and experience is often a recipe for success.

And there's more.

Holloway will pay a major part in these 5 points and these 5 points will play a major part in the medium-long term success of this club.

.... or any other Club. Good points.

[Thracian]

Why does it matter?

He may have been forced to play kids in previous teams due to lack of money to bring in players.

IF we are all honest, Leicester have been in a similar position having pushed the kids in maybe too early and a few years on, some have become injury prone due to the constant run of games like Weso and others are ripped apart due to our expectations, like say Stearman. Some of the others that have featured in bit parts or more like Levi, Odhiambo, Logan, Sheehan etc etc look now likely to be no more than squad players because it seems that Milan and Ollie`s plan is to add experience and try and get us back into the Premiership.

The truth is as talented as some of our kids are we will not be a successful team by building a team around them as ultimately at this stage they are nowhere near good enough.

Who has suggested building a team around them?

A good many have suggested the opposite - that they need to have a team of competent people that they can fit into, which has been far from the case almost up to now.

To suggest they've played bit parts is demeaning. Between them they've made a massive contribution at a time when they were vitally needed.

The only one who might be described as "injury prone" is Wesolowski and the fact that he's still there to do his stint after two broken legs says something for his character rather than against it.

Porter has suffered one particular long-term injury but, generally, the young players have been no more "prone" to injury than Clemence, Kenton, Hammond, Cort, Fryatt (if we call him a senior), Campbell or various others over the last couple of years.

At the time they were selected all the youngsters fully justified their places and I don't remember any one of them letting the side down particularly.

If the bar is lifted and they find it harder to win a shirt in the future that will be natural progress . But there's a good many seniors won't make the team either and it's those that Holloway seems most anxious to get rid of, so we'll see.

Many expected the youngsters would find it harder this season but from what I've seen they've responded to the challenge and people like Stearman, Mattock, Sheehan and Wesolowski still form a significant part of our squad with King and Chambers remaining on the fringes. I don't think they are there as a charitable exercise.

Until the signing of Laczko, Porter has been badly missed. Logan did perfectly reasonably for 20 games of a first season and Fulop would have displaced virtually any Championshuip goalkeeper you could name. Odhiambo has never been a serious part of the first team squad nor do I expect him to be anytime soon.

As for "money" I've seen what money has bought and in many cases it's been an embarrassing waste.

With Holloway and Penrice it doesn't seem to be so much about money as the knowledge of what makes a footballer.

And despite the spending those people with knowledge of footballers seem pretty keen to keep our best young players involved. Far from being "nowhere near good enough" most have done extremely well in their opening senior season/s.

Including Stearman who's been part of the best/second best defence in the Championship.

[The People's Hero]

As for "money" I've seen what money has bought and in many cases it's been an embarrassing waste.

With Holloway and Penrice it doesn't seem to be so much about money as the knowledge of what makes a footballer.

Yeah, but David Connolly is worth £10million of anyones' money, right Thracian?

[Geo V]

1. Nurturing talent can result in risk free profits from transfers.

2. Spotting talent early can give us a competitive advantage over other clubs.

3. Youth players such as Chambers could be a major part of our squad if not first team in 2 or 3 seasons.

4. We need to build on the recent success of the youth academy.

5. Blending youth and experience is often a recipe for success.

And there's more.

Holloway will pay a major part in these 5 points and these 5 points will play a major part in the medium-long term success of this club.

Clubs like Man Utd, West Ham, Leeds and Liverpool have shown what a good youth set-up provides and I'm not denying that it would be great to have a string of quality players to come through but our immediate focus is to get into the Premiership because to be honest, if we have a class youngster they will only move on somewhere else anyway as we are not big enough to accommodate them in this division.

To specifically answer some of your responses....

1. I agree but we are not in desperate need for money like we used to be

2. True but we cant compete realistically with the big clubs

3. I disagree as they have to prove they are good enough first whether its by really impressive whilst on loan or in training/reserves. Youth football is what it is and is no guarantee of success at the highest level.

4. A lot of players have come through our academy and have fallen by the wayside. Lets hope some of the next batch prove to be good enough but the coin is well and truly in the air on that one as their are no guarantees.

5. That I agree with but with prem clubs are buying foreign imports and loads of decent players are rotting away in their reserves. That should mean decent players are available to clubs at our level for hopefully not a great deal of money. With the new money available to the Prem clubs I expect even more foreign imports being bought over so hopefully clubs like ours who have a bit of money can grab a few players of decent quality and if that means that our academy kids have to go out on loan due to lack of opportunities then so be it!

[Jimmy]

It's not about being in desperate need for money but if we could produce someone then sell them for £10-15M then thats all profit which can be used to buy 2 or 3 players, it's just smart business sence

[Geo V]

It's not about being in desperate need for money but if we could produce someone then sell them for £10-15M then thats all profit which can be used to buy 2 or 3 players, it's just smart business sence

Thats the point though.

A club like ours shouldn't be looking to breed talent and sell them on. We should be in the Premiership and hope to build teams good enough to keep the good players for as long as possible.

I know we sold Heskey and did well with the cash and the money for Piper was more than useful but I don't want our outlook to be like some Division 2 club who wants big cup matches against the Man Us of the world and producing players like Leeds have done like Lennon and Carson for the big clubs to come and poach away.

Our first aim above anything MUST be getting into the Premiership and who knows, we may keep the likes of Mattock well into his 20s if he continues to progress that is!

[mancunianfox]

Who has suggested building a team around them?

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.

.

.

.

.

And despite the spending those people with knowledge of footballers seem pretty keen to keep our best young players involved. Far from being "nowhere near good enough" most have done extremely well in their opening senior season/s.

Including Stearman who's been part of the best/second best defence in the Championship.

Good post that, one of your more reasonable posts regarding the development of our youth players. I've also noticed that you seem to be developing a much more positive view of Holloway et al since Coventry.

[James.]

Thats the point though.

A club like ours shouldn't be looking to breed talent and sell them on. We should be in the Premiership and hope to build teams good enough to keep the good players for as long as possible.

I know we sold Heskey and did well with the cash and the money for Piper was more than useful but I don't want our outlook to be like some Division 2 club who wants big cup matches against the Man Us of the world and producing players like Leeds have done like Lennon and Carson for the big clubs to come and poach away.

Our first aim above anything MUST be getting into the Premiership and who knows, we may keep the likes of Mattock well into his 20s if he continues to progress that is!

You seem to be suggesting that there is some sort of trade off whereby you can't pursue Premiership football AND build a quality youth academy. I don't see why we should need to comprimise. Of course our aim is the Premiership but that shouldn't (and doesn't need to) come at the expense of investing in young talent.

[Thracian]

Clubs like Man Utd, West Ham, Leeds and Liverpool have shown what a good youth set-up provides and I'm not denying that it would be great to have a string of quality players to come through but our immediate focus is to get into the Premiership because to be honest, if we have a class youngster they will only move on somewhere else anyway as we are not big enough to accommodate them in this division.

To specifically answer some of your responses....

1. I agree but we are not in desperate need for money like we used to be

2. True but we cant compete realistically with the big clubs

3. I disagree as they have to prove they are good enough first whether its by really impressive whilst on loan or in training/reserves. Youth football is what it is and is no guarantee of success at the highest level.

4. A lot of players have come through our academy and have fallen by the wayside. Lets hope some of the next batch prove to be good enough but the coin is well and truly in the air on that one as their are no guarantees.

5. That I agree with but with prem clubs are buying foreign imports and loads of decent players are rotting away in their reserves. That should mean decent players are available to clubs at our level for hopefully not a great deal of money. With the new money available to the Prem clubs I expect even more foreign imports being bought over so hopefully clubs like ours who have a bit of money can grab a few players of decent quality and if that means that our academy kids have to go out on loan due to lack of opportunities then so be it!

The vast majority of graduates from all Academy's fall by the wayside. Our recent success rate has been highly unusual to the point of being extraordinary.

MM seems to be prepared to say "no" to Premiership lures which, right or wrong, does him credit.

As for the "foreign imports" that can be the fastest way of wasting money I know. Everyone loves to see a Laczko or Fulop.

But you have to put those alongside people like Nielsen, Keabi, Ferreira and Djiziri.

People, foreign or English, sit in reserve teams or on the sidelines for reasons, as we all saw with Ryan Smith despite his promise. What you get from your own Academy is people you know, people who's performance you've monitored for years, who's temperament has been noted, who is schooled in your way of playing.

Of course you look out for "bargains" and in Penrice we'd appear to have a real jewel in that respect.

But why the hell our own young players should be shunted out on loan to allow some perfectly ordinary foreigners like the four I mentioned to fill their shoes, I cannot understand for one minute.

Of course, if we'd done our homework properly I doubt very much that it would have happened.

[morris1234]

Thats the point though.

A club like ours shouldn't be looking to breed talent and sell them on. We should be in the Premiership and hope to build teams good enough to keep the good players for as long as possible.

I know we sold Heskey and did well with the cash and the money for Piper was more than useful but I don't want our outlook to be like some Division 2 club who wants big cup matches against the Man Us of the world and producing players like Leeds have done like Lennon and Carson for the big clubs to come and poach away.

Our first aim above anything MUST be getting into the Premiership and who knows, we may keep the likes of Mattock well into his 20s if he continues to progress that is!

you make it sound like were growing them on the pitch! no wonder some of them are shit, too much fertilizer!

[Jimmy]

Thats the point though.

A club like ours shouldn't be looking to breed talent and sell them on. We should be in the Premiership and hope to build teams good enough to keep the good players for as long as possible.

I know we sold Heskey and did well with the cash and the money for Piper was more than useful but I don't want our outlook to be like some Division 2 club who wants big cup matches against the Man Us of the world and producing players like Leeds have done like Lennon and Carson for the big clubs to come and poach away.

Our first aim above anything MUST be getting into the Premiership and who knows, we may keep the likes of Mattock well into his 20s if he continues to progress that is!

Geo you really are missing the point, we ARE NOT in the prem and won't be for at least another season and a half, even if we get there it'll take 3 or 4 years of staying there to become an established prem side again meaning if we can sell 1 player for a huge sum and sing 2 or 3 others with that money then that's the best way to run a club of our statue.

as for a club like ours, what a fallen premier league club that has been just scraping to safety in the Championship for years, in the grand scheme of things we are a nothing club, your being as bad as Forest and Leeds fans by insisting we are otherwise, even teams like Reading would still practice the method I mentioned, sell 1 player (say Nicky Shorey) and use that money to strengthen 2 or 3 other areas. It's just smart business scence both financially and in football terms

[mancunianfox]

Of course you look out for "bargains" and in Penrice we'd appear to have a real jewel in that respect.

But why the hell our own young players should be shunted out on loan to allow some perfectly ordinary foreigners like the four I mentioned to fill their shoes, I cannot understand for one minute.

Of course, if we'd done our homework properly I doubt very much that it would have happened.

It seems that Penrice (and perhaps Mandaric thought McKay was) exactly the kind of person we needed in the summer when we wasting money on players like Cort, Kishishev and Newton who didn't have the right kind of motivation required to turn the club around.

To me it is encouraging that the signings we have been making this month seem to be more thought out and closer attention is being paid to personality as well as skill. It takes a certain type of person to succeed as a professional footballer and that is why so many graduates in academy's fail. Lots of youngsters with bags of natural ability don't make it for exactly this reason but every now and again there will be a Joachim or a Heskey who have both and that is the reason why we should continue to support the development of youth. We all moan about the lack of quality English players but if even clubs like Leicester City would rather loan in a portuguese journeyman than give one of their own lads a game what chance is there of English talent developing?

[Geo V]

Geo you really are missing the point, we ARE NOT in the prem and won't be for at least another season and a half, even if we get there it'll take 3 or 4 years of staying there to become an established prem side again meaning if we can sell 1 player for a huge sum and sing 2 or 3 others with that money then that's the best way to run a club of our statue.

as for a club like ours, what a fallen premier league club that has been just scraping to safety in the Championship for years, in the grand scheme of things we are a nothing club, your being as bad as Forest and Leeds fans by insisting we are otherwise, even teams like Reading would still practice the method I mentioned, sell 1 player (say Nicky Shorey) and use that money to strengthen 2 or 3 other areas. It's just smart business scence both financially and in football terms

I get the point mate and at times realism has to set in, that I understand but if you have low targets and standards then you wont go anywhere.

I do realize we are miles away from the Premiership and with some decent relegated clubs to come down it will be even more difficult to get out of this league but I still am certain the best way to achieve success will be to buy players like Oakley, Howard etc as opposed to fielding a team full of the likes of Logan, Levi, Sheehan, Weso and the like although as I have said many times before, Weso may be quality in the future and Sheehan also possesses some ability,