The Gradel or Dyer debate

[dandannieldanok]

Gradel; although cannot believe Pearson brought Berner on and not Dyer, even in this poor patch of form Lloyd could have had a field day against that lot.

[Munzie]

I'd also want Porter on the bench on Wednesday.

You were doing really well up until that point.

[Thracian]

You were doing really well up until that point.

I'm perfectly serious. Porter is made for our team. Despite the long list in the programme we really do have a small squad of realistic options and more so if you say the alternatives have to be able to pass and move.

The great joy for me today was the speed we moved the ball going forward. Suddenly we had four men in our midfield who could all give and go with one and two-touch passes but two who could also take people on and disrupt defences with their dribbling.

If we're going to change one of those four it needs to be someone else who can do the same. Look through the squad list and tell me who, apart from Porter and Chambers ticks the box. And of the two Porter is far more experienced and far more consistent.

[Jimmy]

I'm perfectly serious. Porter is made for our team. Despite the long list in the programme we really do have a small squad of realistic options and more so if you say the alternatives have to be able to pass and move.

The great joy for me today was the speed we moved the ball going forward. Suddenly we had four men in our midfield who could all give and go with one and two-touch passes but two who could also take people on and disrupt defences with their dribbling.

If we're going to change one of those four it needs to be someone else who can do the same. Look through the squad list and tell me who, apart from Porter and Chambers ticks the box. And of the two Porter is far more experienced and far more consistent.

to be fair to Thrac, for once I agree I'd rather see Porter on the bench then have 2 defenders, if you have Berner on the bench he covers both FB positions and can play CB too so why not have him on there and they either Maxi/Dyer plus Porter, who could easily slot into the passing style we try to play

[Thracian]

When they are both firing on all cylinders, Dyer offers a hell of a lot more than Gradel.

I think it's right that Dyer is getting some bench time and still find it hard to believe that Gradel didn't get a start on Tuesday after his confidence boosting run-out at McDons. That said, one free kick doesn't warrant a starting place.

I think a brief spell on the side-lines is exactly what Dyer needs. With Max putting in some good performances (as opposed to 'immense' as some have claimed), this can only serve to reignite some of the spark in Lloyd.

I don't know how much you've seen of Gradel as a player but quite what Dyer has to offer that is beyond Gradel I don't know.

When I've talked to a few contacts at the club they've all agreed that Gradel is the most talented individuals we have.

That doesn't mean he uses those talents to the full yet, there's no doubt he doesn't.

But Gradel can make goals, score goals, beat people, play on the left, play on the right, play in the centre, play within a team, take people on, play the give-and-goes, take free-kicks and corners and is even improving his ability to harrass as was clearly shown today...

Dyer only plays on the left from what I've seen and although he had a good first half of the season for a winger, for eight or 10 weeks now he's lost his edge and been far too easily contained by his opponents. Unlike Gradel, when that happens, he doesn't seem to have licence to change flanks or move elsewhere other than inside a bit, cramping the space.

So, overalll I'd probably a guy who can switch wings naturally over one that doesn't seem to, especially considering we often only play with one winger, but I'd sure like to see both firing on all cylinders because if would sure be a nightmare for any defence at our level.

I happen to think both are good players and that our team can and should utilise both. But I also believe that Gradel can be one of the best players we've had in modern times given the right help and support. Even when he's below his best he has the ability to create a buzz and make something happen.

[GLC]

Gradel without a doubt

[Daggers]

I don't know how much you've seen of Gradel as a player but quite what Dyer has to offer that is beyond Gradel I don't know.

Potential vs. reality:

Tell me how Gradel has been in any way greater than Dyer this season? Only with the buzz of expectation, but that quickly wore off when he failed to deliver the pre-season hype. Dyer stormed the start of the season by comparrison while Maxi gloried in light-weight mishits and stumbles.

Maybe he has the potential to become good - but points on the board beats games in hand week in week out

[Finnegan]

Potential vs. reality:

Tell me how Gradel has been in any way greater than Dyer this season? Only with the buzz of expectation, but that quickly wore off when he failed to deliver the pre-season hype. Dyer stormed the start of the season by comparrison while Maxi gloried in light-weight mishits and stumbles.

Maybe he has the potential to become good - but points on the board beats games in hand week in week out

Got to agree, really.

Like I said, I think Gradel deserves his place at the moment and I think Dyer should have been sidelined - but I don't quite buy into the whole Gradel hype. They've both looked capeable at this level and they've both had their ups and downs but for the season as a whole Dyer's been far, far more productive.

[maddog]

Gradel.

Not just based on today though.

Dyer has played pretty much every game this season, and he was playing some stunning football, scoring, ripping players, passing, crossing. Dyer and Tunchev were by far our best performers early on in the season.

BUT since Christmas, maybe even before, Dyer has looked distinctly average, possibly shit compared to his performances early on. He has been repeatedly losing his balance, losing control of the ball, and ultimately losing the ball.

Struggling for a decent cross or pass, and unable to run with the ball up the wing, keeping it under control and get a decent cross in. His goals have decreased too.

Yet Pearson repeatedly picked him to start every match.

Thank fook he decided to change it, and boy did it pay dividends. We looked sharp and dangerous, and it was because of Cleverly and Gradels pacy skill, flair, speed and class that gave us that edge over Cheltenham. A great decision from NP.

Also Gradel bagged that crucial free kick against the Dons, only 1 goal i know, but such a crucial goal, a class goal, shows his potential talent and earns him a place in the team, or certianly a better chance to get in.

So simply it has to be Gradel, a break may do Dyer good, he may come out an even better player than he was early on in the season. Although Dyer still makes the top 5 performers this season, with Tunch, Fryatt, King, and

Howard

Gradel please.

And IF starting Gradel for a few games results him in being much less effective and turning out poor performances himself, Dyer can come back in fresh and raring to go.

[Unknown Fox]

Gradel, no question.

However, his performance today shouldn't be bigged up too much considering the opposition, and the fact that Cheltenham don't actually have a proper right back in their team.

couldn't agree more Joseph, but hopefully Dyer being dropped will maybe spark him back into life so we see the form from him that we did at the beginning of the season

[Thracian]

Got to agree, really.

"they've both had their ups and downs but for the season as a whole Dyer's been far, far more productive."

Of course he has. He's had a lot more games and minutes on the pitch. But Gradel's goals/assists ratio is still fairly good for the number of minutes he's played and could have been a lot higher if he'd enjoyed the inolvement he should have had.

Cos I also know this. Our team has lost so much of it's sparkle since the Walsall game and Gradel played a big part in helping to bring that back today.

I truthfully don't much care who of the two is better. But I do care about the kind of football we play. There was a buzz factor about Gradel that's not been there with Dyer for ages and, whatever it was like where you were sitting, the people around me seemed thrilled by it.

Especially after that turgid performance on Tuesday night and the dour excuse for football against MK Dons when one moment of Gradel magic was just about the only highlight worth remembering.

I'm well aware that Gradel hasn't hit peak form this season just as Dyer hasn't hit peak form for months. But then Gradel was never going to get the lead role was he. Lots of us said he should play on his favoured left side or that the two wingers should swop sides from time to time but that rarely happened.

I wonder how good Dyer would have been on his "wrong" side.

[Munzie]

I'm perfectly serious. Porter is made for our team. Despite the long list in the programme we really do have a small squad of realistic options and more so if you say the alternatives have to be able to pass and move.

The great joy for me today was the speed we moved the ball going forward. Suddenly we had four men in our midfield who could all give and go with one and two-touch passes but two who could also take people on and disrupt defences with their dribbling.

If we're going to change one of those four it needs to be someone else who can do the same. Look through the squad list and tell me who, apart from Porter and Chambers ticks the box. And of the two Porter is far more experienced and far more consistent.

Whilst I do not profess to know what has happened off-field during Porter's rehabilitation, all is not right between little Levi and a place in the first team (or even the second or third if half the rumours on here are true). I, like many others, felt really sorry for him when he was carried off at Stamford Bridge as he was putting in a memorable performance that night. Until then, he was a potentially emerging, but mediocre player. Pacey but mediocre.

I don't know how much you've seen of Gradel as a player but quite what Dyer has to offer that is beyond Gradel I don't know.

When I've talked to a few contacts at the club they've all agreed that Gradel is the most talented individuals we have.

That doesn't mean he uses those talents to the full yet, there's no doubt he doesn't.

But Gradel can make goals, score goals, beat people, play on the left, play on the right, play in the centre, play within a team, take people on, play the give-and-goes, take free-kicks and corners and is even improving his ability to harrass as was clearly shown today...

Dyer only plays on the left from what I've seen and although he had a good first half of the season for a winger, for eight or 10 weeks now he's lost his edge and been far too easily contained by his opponents. Unlike Gradel, when that happens, he doesn't seem to have licence to change flanks or move elsewhere other than inside a bit, cramping the space.

So, overalll I'd probably a guy who can switch wings naturally over one that doesn't seem to, especially considering we often only play with one winger, but I'd sure like to see both firing on all cylinders because if would sure be a nightmare for any defence at our level.

I happen to think both are good players and that our team can and should utilise both. But I also believe that Gradel can be one of the best players we've had in modern times given the right help and support. Even when he's below his best he has the ability to create a buzz and make something happen.

Replace the name Gradel with Dyer in your paragraph I have highlighted and nobody would question this analysis about Lloyd. He has switched in the past and still been effective.

Gradel is a player for the future. As with my take on Porter from the last few seasons, he is an emerging talent. Max looked good at the start of the season but has failed to remain consistent as games have come and gone. In fact his lack of confidence was blatantly obvious before his time on the fringes.

Dyer, despite a dip in form recently, has remained a key player in our season to date. Of the two, he has put in far more commanding arguements for the nod in the first team than Max. We have witnessed the taking on of players, the give and go's as well as countless assists.

As you say, both can be utilised, just as Pearson is currently demonstrating. You also say that given the right help and support Max could be come a great asset. I don't doubt you. I love to see emerging talents being given the chance. Ashley Chambers should also be mentioned here but we need to balance playing time for future greats and picking up points to ensure our return to the Championship. As and when it is mathematically certain, it would be great to see further experimentation with our side encouraging potential through.

When all is said and done, I still stand by my decision. When both are on form, Dyer would get the shirt.

[Koke]

Dyer was immense in the first half of the season, scoring 9 goals from midfield. He then proceeded to score 1 goal since the start of the year and has dipped in form massively.

Both Gradel and Dyer are extremely good players and can score goals, beat their men and create chances. I agree with Thracian that Gradel has that bit of versatility on his side, but when both are on top form and firing on all cylinders, then as Munzie said, I would chose Dyer as well, really.

[Cropwellfox]

85 mins in and Gradel hit the side netting. He picked himself up and sprinted back to the half way line to get into position - that's the kind of energy that seems to have faded from the team, particularly Dyer recently - keep Gradel in - it will tired performances that will see McDons and Peterboro close up on us, and Gradel ran non-stop for the whole 90 yesterday.

[BlabyFox]

Max has hit one good dead ball and had a reasonable run out against the worst team in Division III - it's far too early to be getting the wives of Leicestershire lubed-up and waiting.

Dyer has contributed far more this season than Gradel and I'm hoping the match off has given him the rest he needs to finish the season as he started it.

But the fact remains that Gradel isn't afraid to take on a man and beat him. I haven't seen Dyer actually pick up the ball and run it past a defender for half a season.

92.5% Gradel

[demon_dog]

Without doubt on yesterdays form Gradel.

Give Dyer a rest.

[C-man]

I hope Gradel does start, it'd make for a much more exciting and attacking game, but I think NP will probably start with Dyer.

Oakley - Berner - King - Dyer

Dyer's current form and Berner in the centre does limit us going forward, but Tranmere will be a tough place to get anything from, and I think NP will want to keep it tight for at least the first hour then maybe bring Cleverley and Gradel on if we need a change in tack.

[Simi]

I hope Gradel does start, it'd make for a much more exciting and attacking game, but I think NP will probably start with Dyer.

Oakley - Berner - King - Dyer

Dyer's current form and Berner in the centre does limit us going forward, but Tranmere will be a tough place to get anything from, and I think NP will want to keep it tight for at least the first hour then maybe bring Cleverley and Gradel on if we need a change in tack.

Agree.

Bringing Berner back in will give us a lot more stability in the middle of the park and more discipline. Also allowing King to get involved a bit more which isn't a bad thing.

However, would be surprised to see Gradel carry on, Pearson will want to tighten things up without a doubt.

[colbo68]

Can't believe someones not already posted this.

Gradel was immense today. Dyers having a blip but has been good for us this season. So, who will start against Tranmere.

I'd personally love to see Gradel keep his place, he and Cleverly completed bossed the midfield today.

he and Cleverly completed bossed the midfield today.

that was basically because Cheltenham didnt have a midfield - they were possibly the worst side we've seen for a good many years and the scoreline could have been ridiculous

I think that Dyer is a better player than Max, but I do think Dyer needs a break, so I'd play Max or Ash Chambers down the wing for the next game

[BlabyFox]

he and Cleverly completed bossed the midfield today.

that was basically because Cheltenham didnt have a midfield - they were possibly the worst side we've seen for a good many years and the scoreline could have been ridiculous

I think that Dyer is a better player than Max, but I do think Dyer needs a break, so I'd play Max or Ash Chambers down the wing for the next game

On his day he probably is but when was the last time dyer had a good game?

[Koke]

The votes are unbelievably, and rightly so, one sided.

[Corky]

Gradel to start. He made an impact yesterday that Dyer hasn't made for a while, so keep him going when he's confident and on form.

Dyer still has a role to play at the club, he's not suddenly become a bad player.

[Hitesh]

Gradel got a chance yesterday to show what he can do and claim his place in the team and he took it well I thought. Took players on well and although some of his crosses were poor, overall his performance was good. I think give the lad a chance, and it will also test Dyer in terms of if he is willing to work hard enough to gain his place back.

[Thracian]

The votes are unbelievably, and rightly so, one sided.

If only it were quite that simple.

Max may well be the most talented, potentially crowd-pleasing player we have but the mark of a good professional is to deliver 7-rated performances or better, time and again and this will only come by improving consistency.

For a young winger Max is already quite effective in terms of goals/assists especially when you remember that some contributions are not detailed in the stats, like starting one of the moves which led to a goal on Saturday.

But he can still improve his decision-making, still improve the number of chances he creates, still reduce the number of control errors he makes, still increase the speed he uses the ball on occasions, still cut down the failure rate on his free-kicks, crosses and corners and still improve the potency of his shooting.

Max's performance on Saturday was energising to the team, just like Cleverley's but both have to be set against the level of opposition because Cheltenham were little better than Conference class and I've long known Max can tear Conference standard sides to shreds.

Dyer, on the other hand, while perhaps more limited in terms of versatility, has delivered half a season of invariably solid displays with an excellent goals return and that after teams had sussed him and started to make particular plans to contain him.

Being fair Max has had to deal with that too but it was perhaps a bit harder for him with his playing on his least preferred side of the pitch and not, apparently, having the licence to roam.

Bottom line is they are both dangerous players who are difficult to contain indefinitely and we are lucky to have them. Surely better to use both than lose either.

[King Cal]

GRADEL everyday of the week for me, at times Maxi can be his own worst enemy sometimes over doing things, but at least when he has a bad game he works hard. apart from the first 10 games of the season Dyer hasnt performed, he's lazy and dosent want to go past players anymore. Gradel can unlock defences Dyer cant