leaking goals - where does the problem lie

[Lillehamring]

ok, last season we were pretty solid.

this season we started awful, conceding at the drop of a hat.

sven arrives, we get a defence that is 50-75% premier league, and we are still hopeless.

so...

is it down to goalkeeping?

ikeme is premier league, weale has been consistent, in fact one of our better players, although often vulnerable from range; logan, well he was doing ok up to the portsmouth debacle (which was hardly his fault)

is it down to the midfield?

king and dyer seem to be our best midfielders this season, but mainly because of what they bring to attack - wellens and oakley, seem to get good reviews and bad reviews, i'm inclined to think that neither of them are good enough.

is it down to coaching?

chris powell is loved by many but is his influence having a negative effect on defensive performances?

is it our game plan?

under sousa it seemed to be the price paid for an attacking passing type of footy, yet sven is playing 4-5-1, and we are still poop.

i really don't get it, but it's killing us - last time we got relegated with the best defence, now we have the worst defence and even with apparently quality introductions, it doesn't seem to be improving.

thoughts?

[Wymsey]

ok, last season we were pretty solid.

this season we started awful, conceding at the drop of a hat.

sven arrives, we get a defence that is 50-75% premier league, and we are still hopeless.

so...

is it down to goalkeeping?

ikeme is premier league, weale has been consistent, in fact one of our better players, although often vulnerable from range; logan, well he was doing ok up to the portsmouth debacle (which was hardly his fault)

is it down to the midfield?

king and dyer seem to be our best midfielders this season, but mainly because of what they bring to attack - wellens and oakley, seem to get good reviews and bad reviews, i'm inclined to think that neither of them are good enough.

is it down to coaching?

chris powell is loved by many but is his influence having a negative effect on defensive performances?

is it our game plan?

under sousa it seemed to be the price paid for an attacking passing type of footy, yet sven is playing 4-5-1, and we are still poop.

i really don't get it, but it's killing us - last time we got relegated with the best defence, now we have the worst defence and even with apparently quality introductions, it doesn't seem to be improving.

thoughts?

This will take a while to know the answer to this issue. I think its the problem with right backs, wide gaps in both mid and def + strikers that are not prolific enough to lift us up the table.

[sdb]

partly form, partly Brown going, partly changing keepers most weeks, partly Hobbs not on form, partly changing managers/systems twice

[Corky]

I'd look at the goals we concede in more detail. Some we could do little about (The fourth at Norwich for example) but a lot were preventable, mainly at Portsmouth but also Palace and the second vs QPR. Several have been through poor decision making.

I do think we miss Brown, he's not a good footballer but he knew how to defend and organise. The rotation of keepers hasn't helped, we had Weale for all but two games last season which allowed a decent understanding to be created. This year we've had three keepers and all have struggled at some point.

We also seem to lack real protection in front of the defence, we don't play a true defensive midfielder. Wellens and Oakley have sat deep but neither are proper players in that position, maybe try Abe in there and see what he brings to the team.

[Guest Bilo]

One problem I can see is that we are very vulnerable to pace at the back. We just don't know how to cope with it. Naughton seems to have improved matters slightly but Berner has problems with pace and Cunningham didn't appear to be the answer today either. Davies has the ability to do well but I personally feel he probably needs a few more matches to get back to full match sharpness again. Hobbs will come good, I'm sure of that.

I daresay the defence is suffering from something of a lack of confidence as well having leaked so many goals, something Sven will need to work on asap.

[marbelladave]

I'd look at the goals we concede in more detail. Some we could do little about (The fourth at Norwich for example) but a lot were preventable, mainly at Portsmouth but also Palace and the second vs QPR. Several have been through poor decision making.

I do think we miss Brown, he's not a good footballer but he knew how to defend and organise. The rotation of keepers hasn't helped, we had Weale for all but two games last season which allowed a decent understanding to be created. This year we've had three keepers and all have struggled at some point.

We also seem to lack real protection in front of the defence, we don't play a true defensive midfielder. Wellens and Oakley have sat deep but neither are proper players in that position, maybe try Abe in there and see what he brings to the team.

defensively we have been unsettled all season and last years's best defender is losing it. Whether it is all the changes or having to play on the left I don't know but Hobbs is a shadow of last seasons player. Now we have a brand new back 4, it's going to take time to come together, but that is time we really do not have it we have any pretensions of getting a playoff spot.

Our midfield today showed exactly what is wrong with it, bits and pieces players trying to do a job, where was the anchor man ready to dig in and defend, the aggression to take the game to Swansea, the creativity or the sheer bloody will to get forward and support Fryatt?

With all the control Swansea had we actually did quite well defensively to hold them to just the one goal in normal time, the second was an injury time sucker punch as we made a final effort to get a result.

Give it a few more games and I think our back 4 will be pretty solid, not so confident if we lose Davies though!

[Callabinho]

Hobbs is still learning and along side davies he looks average, Sven has changed the back 4 and it won't gel instantly I won't be suprised if we see a few new faced in jan!

[Alexikokopops]

Where's Franck Rolling when you need him?

[ajthefox]

As has been said, I think it's mainly down to the unsettled nature of our start. Different keepers, different defenders, confidence and a big change in how we play for the most part.

Relationships in defence are more important than up top, and I think it's only a matter of time, providing we get start being a bit more potent up front, taking some of the pressure off and getting some consistency.

[Nod.E]

Sven seemed shocked and appalled at our fitness in his first post match interview, which would suggest that the players were not fit enough under Sousa. Whether this was down to a lack of fitness training, or something simple such as not keeping tabs on the players' diets, is irrelevant. An unfit defence will inevitably concede goals in abudance. The fitness problem extends beyond the defence. If we have comparitively unfit midfielders, we're likely to find counter attacks difficult to defend. - Oppositions' midfielders can easily break free of our unfit back-tracking midfielders regularly, and they therefore have more space. The result is an over-ran defence, errors, and goals.

Since Sven been here, we have conceded four goals in three games. Whilst that isn't brilliant, it is a marked improvement on recent times. I didn't listen to the game today, but with their second goal being in second half stoppage time, I would imagine that their goal came as we pushed hard for an equaliser.

Give the squad time to develop their fitness under Sven, and all will be well. Have faith!

[Lillehamring]

One problem I can see is that we are very vulnerable to pace at the back. We just don't know how to cope with it. Naughton seems to have improved matters slightly but Berner has problems with pace and Cunningham didn't appear to be the answer today either. Davies has the ability to do well but I personally feel he probably needs a few more matches to get back to full match sharpness again. Hobbs will come good, I'm sure of that.

I daresay the defence is suffering from something of a lack of confidence as well having leaked so many goals, something Sven will need to work on asap.

we may struggle for pace at the back, but i think most of the goals we've conceded have been soft headers or shots from distance, neither of which are really effected by a lack of pace.

i do think we need a real defensive midfielder, i'm a big supporter of abe, but i'm inclined to throw moreno's name into the hat, as i think he may find the communicating element easier.

[ian_marshall]

we may struggle for pace at the back, but i think most of the goals we've conceded have been soft headers or shots from distance, neither of which are really effected by a lack of pace.

i do think we need a real defensive midfielder, i'm a big supporter of abe, but i'm inclined to throw moreno's name into the hat, as i think he may find the communicating element easier.

Strongly agree about the need for a defensive midfielder. I hate to say it but this is purely down to Pearson I'm afraid and the way that he organised the central midfielders and coached the centre backs to not take any responsibilty for closing down the ball carrier when they're in the final third, something which I noticed Hull have adopted when they came to the Walkers a couple of weeks back. Time again last season we conceded goals from 20/25 yards because we gave teams time to get their long range specialist on the ball and invited them to shoot from a central position just outside the box. If we had s central midfielder this wouldn't happen as we'd have someone covering that area of the pitch which would force teams to play the ball out wide. Alternatively, if Sven doesn't wish to adopt this type of formation then he needs to instruct either Hobbs or Davies to cover one another whilst one quickly steps out of the defence to close down the ball carrier and put a tackle in to avert this particular threat. Having said that, this type of defending requires intelligence along with the ability to read the game, which arguably our centre backs don't seem to have right now. Let's just hope that this gets sorted quickly and we stop gifting other teams easy goals.

[Guest Basildon Fox]

Sven seemed shocked and appalled at our fitness in his first post match interview, which would suggest that the players were not fit enough under Sousa. Whether this was down to a lack of fitness training, or something simple such as not keeping tabs on the players' diets, is irrelevant. An unfit defence will inevitably concede goals in abudance. The fitness problem extends beyond the defence. If we have comparitively unfit midfielders, we're likely to find counter attacks difficult to defend. - Oppositions' midfielders can easily break free of our unfit back-tracking midfielders regularly, and they therefore have more space. The result is an over-ran defence, errors, and goals.

Since Sven been here, we have conceded four goals in three games. Whilst that isn't brilliant, it is a marked improvement on recent times. I didn't listen to the game today, but with their second goal being in second half stoppage time, I would imagine that their goal came as we pushed hard for an equaliser.

Give the squad time to develop their fitness under Sven, and all will be well. Have faith!

Very well written. Agree 100%.

we may struggle for pace at the back, but i think most of the goals we've conceded have been soft headers or shots from distance, neither of which are really effected by a lack of pace.

i do think we need a real defensive midfielder, i'm a big supporter of abe, but i'm inclined to throw moreno's name into the hat, as i think he may find the communicating element easier.

I just wonder why you believe so much that Abe will come good. He sounds like a little boy lost at the moment.

We desperately need some energy and aggression in the centre of midfield. We lack a leader too. Imo Sven needs to sort this ut before anything else.

[davieG]

Not being able to take your chances up front puts extra pressure on the defenders.

[Thracian]

For me the single most important change is that King is playing as an attacker. People sometimes fail to realise what incredibly reliable work he did in front of the back line. King never ball watches. The minute he backtricks he gets his head up to see who's doing what and so often nips in to thwart a dangerous attack or provide the out ball when someone else intercepts. King is also goodish in the air, whereas Wellens and Oakley aren't.

Wellens is a determined and more outwardly dominant player but he's less disciplined and much more inclined to take an extra touich or lose and risk getting caught in possession. Trouble is that King is an excellent attacker coming from behind two central strikers so we have a dilemma.

King's absence from defence exposes the frailties of Hobbs and Morrison in possession. With Wellens also likely to lose possession - and our full-backs (pre-Naughton) hardly being brilliant in terms of passing or recovery, we really are exposed at times.

Brown too is missed immensely. He was awful - and I do mean awful - in possession but he read the game so well as a defender and let very little develop around him. He never stopped directing the troops - and with great effect.

Ironic that he had to go for his objectionable political views but Ultra can sit in council as Mayor and representative of the effectively and demonstrably white-English hating Labour Party while 5.5 million people remain unemployed. But that's quite another matter.

[davieG]

For me the single most important change is that King is playing as an attacker. People sometimes fail to realise what incredibly reliable work he did in front of the back line. King never ball watches. The minute he backtricks he gets his head up to see who's doing what and so often nips in to thwart a dangerous attack or provide the out ball when someone else intercepts. King is also goodish in the air, whereas Wellens and Oakley aren't.

Wellens is a determined and more outwardly dominant player but he's less disciplined and much more inclined to take an extra touich or lose and risk getting caught in possession. Trouble is that King is an excellent attacker coming from behind two central strikers so we have a dilemma.

King's absence from defence exposes the frailties of Hobbs and Morrison in possession. With Wellens also likely to lose possession - and our full-backs (pre-Naughton) hardly being brilliant in terms of passing or recovery, we really are exposed at times.

King - but he never tackles anyone

[Finnegan]

Woah now, hold on. Patience is a virtue.

We've just signed three out of four defenders completely a-new, don't you think they might need time to gel? And all we've really got to go on are two games, both very tough away days.

There's no shame in losing away to Swansea and there's no shame in shipping a goal at Elland Road, however poor Lids were on the night. I'd give the new signings time to bed down before hitting the panic button, personally.

Oh, and in regards Defensive Midfield - Yuki fucking Abe. Ballwinner.

[haraven]

Like a few others here I think we have to look at a defensive midfielder hovering above the back four.

Hobbs needs some backing words as well in defense, but we're not a prolific side either - so we need one of our strikers to start hitting the net regularly. We're simply not scoring enough goals.

[FoxyPV]

King's absence from defence exposes the frailties of Hobbs and Morrison in possession. With Wellens also likely to lose possession - and our full-backs (pre-Naughton) hardly being brilliant in terms of passing or recovery, we really are exposed at times.

Brown too is missed immensely. He was awful - and I do mean awful - in possession but he read the game so well as a defender and let very little develop around him. He never stopped directing the troops - and with great effect.

Ironic that he had to go for his objectionable political views but Ultra can sit in council as Mayor and representative of the effectively and demonstrably white-English hating Labour Party while 5.5 million people remain unemployed. But that's quite another matter.

A bit of stability in the defence would do wonders for us. A settled defence should be the basis of any team. We have chopped and changed the defence and system too often to see any great defensive displays. Morrison played, dropped, played. Moussa, Moreno, Hobbs and Vitor were all treated the same. If you want protection in front of the back four - I have to agree with Finners and put Abe there.

I have to agree with you about Brown but here you are clearly talking bollocks but again that's for General Chat.

[Finnegan]

Ironic that he had to go for his objectionable political views but Ultra can sit in council as Mayor and representative of the effectively and demonstrably white-English hating Labour Party while 5.5 million people remain unemployed. But that's quite another matter.

Yeah... the Labour party are clearly worse than the BNP... classy as ever, Thracian.

[Fosse Boy]

Much as I love the bloke Swansea really had Weale's number with regards to testing him from range yesterday.

[SOCCERROO FOX]

I just hope Hobbs doesn't try to dribble or wait on the ball in the heart of our defence ever again.

[purpleronnie]

Just seen swansea's second goal online, terrible defending by Hobbs...not that it mattered much in the end.

[SOCCERROO FOX]

Much as I love the bloke Swansea really had Weale's number with regards to testing him from range yesterday.

Every game i've seen on TV last season Weale was great. But he hasn't looked confident at all for in the last 3 games and is yet to actually make a proper save.

[marbelladave]

I have been banging on about our deficiences in central midfield for more than a year, now it looks like the penny is beginning to drop.

Our best player in this area is King, and by a fair margin, much of what Thrac says about hin is spot on, his contribution in both boxes is first rate. In the cental third he can seem annonymous, primarily because he does his defensive work by closing down, cutting down options and making interceptions, not by putting in thumping tackles! Similarly in possesion he plays a simple pass and move game, quite unspectacular yet far more consistently effective than anything from his team mates. He saves most of his effort for his work in the box, both of them.

What he is not, particularly in the central third, is a tough tackling ball winner or the kind of attacking player who can turn a game for you, what he can be is the 'glue' that holds together a midfield of different talents whilst at the same time making his trade mark contributions in both boxes.

Partnering him with Oakley and Wellens is not the answer, they are both 'bits and pieces' players who are kind of OK but not remotely effective enough in any of the key areas. As has been said, we need a specialist holding player in front of the back 4 and a creative midfielder/attacker, King, of course will just fill in the gaps, it what he is good at.

I had hoped that either Moreno or Abe, both specialist holding players would be the answer, but neither have been given a chance in their proper position and I had hoped tht Gallagher would take on the attacking role, but he was sulky and indolent under Sousa and looks little better under Sven.

Sort that lot out and give our back 4 time to settle and we may be set to move forward, that, at least, is my hope!...