Brtitsh or English...

[Finnegan]

and to left-wingers like Billy Bragg who are prepared to fight for "English" not to be hijacked by right-wing bigots....

And Vin Garbutt!

Edit, so as not to tripple post, as I've said before Bilo; English nationalism is not comparable to Welsh and to Scottish nationalism, it just isn't the same political idea.

"Nationalism" is a hugely loose term, it means different things dependent on your stance. Primarily there are two major schools of nationalism, on the one hand there is the fairly understandable belief that ones nation has the right to self governance (see Irish nationalism of the turn of the century) and on the other there is the far more sinister belief that ones nation and it's ethnic people are inherently superior and that their purity should be upheld (see British nationalism.)

The SNP and Plaid are clearly the former. They have no ethnic undercurrent, they have no sinister motives and they exist outside of the concept of "left" and "right." They simply believe (and before this provokes the 282583th argument on the issue, I am not saying they are right or wrong) that the body of people they represent has an identity strong enough and individual enough that it should be governed by it's own parliament.

At the end of the day, it was England that conquered the rest of the isle - not the visa versa. It was England that creates it's laws, England that holds the power. There is not need for English nationalism in the former context because "England" and "Britain" are synonymous.

The fact that a small number of Welsh and Scottish MPs have some limited influence over your decision making doesn't really have any impact on your liberty, be it real or simply perceived. There's very little public outcry for a need to make laws independent of the Scots and Welsh because, realistically, the Scots and Welsh hold little sway.

So it isn't that nationalism has simply become "acceptable" in Scotland and Wales, it's simply that our brand of nationalism is a very different thing to what your BNP and EDL are bringing to the fore and confusing the two would be much like mixing up left-wing socialism with Hitler's National Socialism.

Sorry if that's rambling or clumsily worded, I'm tired, and will come back to it tomorrow if needs be.

[BoneDog]

Talking of lefties, hats off to Tony Benn.

What a guy. More balls and honour than any right winger I can think of.

[Guest Bilo]

And Vin Garbutt!

Edit, so as not to tripple post, as I've said before Bilo; English nationalism is not comparable to Welsh and to Scottish nationalism, it just isn't the same political idea.

"Nationalism" is a hugely loose term, it means different things dependent on your stance. Primarily there are two major schools of nationalism, on the one hand there is the fairly understandable belief that ones nation has the right to self governance (see Irish nationalism) and on the other there is the far more sinister belief that ones nation and it's ethnic people are inherently superior and that their purity should be upheld (see British nationalism.)

The SNP and Plaid are clearly the former. They have no ethnic undercurrent, they have no sinister motives and they exist outside of the concept of "left" and "right." They simply believe (and before this provokes the 282583th argument on the issue, I am not saying they are right or wrong) that the people they represent has an identity strong enough and individual enough that it should be governed by it's own parliament.

At the end of the day, it was England that conquered the rest of the isle - not the visa versa. It was England that creates it's laws, England that holds the power. There is not need for English nationalism in the former context because "England" and "Britain" are synonymous.

The fact that a small number of Welsh and Scottish MPs have some limited influence over your decision making doesn't really have any impact on your liberty, be it real or simply perceived. There's very little public outcry for a need to make laws independent of the Scots and Welsh because, realistically, the Scots and Welsh hold little sway.

So it isn't that nationalism has simply become "acceptable" in Scotland and Wales, it's simply that our brand of nationalism is a very different thing to what your BNP and EDL are bringing to the fore and confusing the two would be much like mixing up left-wing socialism with Hitler's National Socialism.

Sorry if that's rambling or clumsily worded, I'm tired, and will come back to it tomorrow if needs be.

I do believe the West Lothian Question to which you've alluded is a hugely exaggerated issue by the political right, though I do believe that it only fair that England has its own devolved parliament given the benefits the Welsh and Scottish Assemblies have afforded their countries.

I also believe that English power and dominance over the British Isles is now far more diluted than it has been for centuries, due in part to devolution but also due to growing Welsh and Scottish cultural influence over the United Kingdom after years of suppression by England. Today, on the world stage there is no question that it is Britain as a whole, not England, that holds sway. That the Welsh and Scottish MPs in Parliament hold little sway over decisions in England owe more to the comparatively tiny populations of Wales and Scotland in comparison to England rather than any lingering cultural dominance.

With reference to your two schools of nationalism, I see no reason why England could not sustain the former, it's just the latter has become so associated over the years with the very idea of English nationalism. The far-right has perverted the very idea of English nationalism to the point that the non-ethnic based kind would find it difficult to gain a foothold. England does have a strong nationality identity, quite distinct from Wales and Scotland, that deserves to be upheld and preserved. The problem is that there is little to no political will for this to happen. The word 'English' rather than 'British' only appeared this year on the census forms for example, how many years must we be away from being accepted as a distinct people? We're probably no closer than the Cornish. English and British are two very different things, quite distinct from one another.

The problem is that generally it's the political right that promote English nationalism whereas the left shy away from it due to stigmatisation, and while this is the case you're probably right to say there'll be quite some wait before we end up with a benign English movement.

[Finnegan]

But where is the need, or perceived need? That's my point. You can justify it all you want but there isn't actually any large group of English people who feel that they don't have their own effective government (er, in the given context, that is. I'm sure a lot of people think their government is somewhat ineffective but that's another matter!)

And I wasn't for one moment suggesting the Scots or Welsh MPs hold little sway because they're oppressed or downtrodden, your line about them simply being the minority was exactly my point and is exactly the point.

Prior to referendum, Welsh law was dictated massively by English politicians. A few Welsh people having a minuscule input on English law is quite clearly nothing like the same scale and is thus obviously not going to invoke the same level of response from the populace. So why would there ever need to be any campaign for English devolution?

The bottom line is this; separatist-nationalism is all about the desire for the power to control one's own affairs. England already has this power, the mass-majority make up of it's parliament ensures this. Ergo, any need for separatist-nationalism is defunct. What remains is right-wing, jingoist nationalism and patriotism and that's why the word is so taboo for you and "accepted" across the Celtic boarder.

[Guest Bilo]

Put another way then, do you not feel that the Welsh and Scottish assemblies, far from creating equality actually create inequalities within the union?

Free university tuition for students and nursing home care for pensioners in Scotland, free prescriptions and frozen tuition fees in Wales and £1300 more per head spent on public services in the Celtic nations seems a bit unfair.

You could call it redressing the balance of years of under-investment, particularly in deprived areas of South Wales and Western Scotland, but that doesn't really wash when you consider some of the UK's most deprived areas lie in England.

[zubi]

Sorry to take the piss here... But I want Britain to be about British!!!

[Finnegan]

Put another way then, do you not feel that the Welsh and Scottish assemblies, far from creating equality actually create inequalities within the union?

Free university tuition for students and nursing home care for pensioners in Scotland, free prescriptions and frozen tuition fees in Wales and £1300 more per head spent on public services in the Celtic nations seems a bit unfair.

You could call it redressing the balance of years of under-investment, particularly in deprived areas of South Wales and Western Scotland, but that doesn't really wash when you consider some of the UK's most deprived areas lie in England.

But now you're getting on to something else, really.

What you're highlighting now is that Scots and Welsh governments have, when given decision making abilities, taken a far more leftist route than their Westminster contemporaries - this is hardly surprising. The Scots and the Welsh, generally, are considerably more left-wing than the English and that's been represented by decades of elections. You ask is it fair that prescriptions and tuitions fees are free in one place but not another but what you should be asking is whether or not Jon the Hat or Webbo (who voted in your current government and represent your majority, [sort of]) think those are actually good ideas?

Ironically, as a leftist yourself you would actually suffer without whatever marginal influence the Celtic vote does have on your parliamentary system because ultimately they tend to tip the scales away from the Conservative right.

Besides, as I was trying to state earlier, this isn't really about the technical specifics. It's not about sitting down and playing Top Trumps with who has what, who deserves what and how fair each and every policy is. What we're debating, really, is bigger than whether or not you PERSONALLY see potential for a devolved England. The debate here is what public opinion states and I'm reasonably confident that there isn't a large, discontent percentage of the English populace sitting in their homes complaining because they feel the Scots and the Welsh have power over them to make their laws; there is absolutely 0 argument to claim that the minnow Celtic nations have any power over England or that the English are being denied self-governance or political liberty.

[Heart-Shaped Fox]

English.

The Scots dont ever seem to call themselves British so why should we English?

Actually thinking about it, I only ever hear English people call themselves British.

[Webbo]

When it comes to nationalism I'm with Dr Johnson.

[Mack]

I consider myself European.

[acooling08]

I consider myself European.

Ew no? French or German?

[trugerkem]

english all day long

[Fox92]

If I meet a Scot, they'll say 'Im Scottish', and the same with Welsh.

So, I say I'm English.

[Winchester]

Bit of a different view here. I'm a TCK (third culture kid), born and raised in the good ol' usa, but my dad is English so I have dual citizenship. With something of a partial accent many ppl over here will refer to me as English/British (or Australian...or Irish... or a New Yorker ....depending on how good their hearing is) even after i tell them i was born in America.

It would be presumptuous to call myself English - British might seem more acceptable somehow, maybe coz that's what the passport says. Dunno. Usually I tell people that 'my family is...' and 99% of the time I suppose I say English over British. Probably depends on the context and whom I'm speaking to.

Had a teacher at school from Northern Ireland, and her son was in my class, anytime I called them Irish they quickly corrected me and said they were British.

A few Pakistani friends over here tend to use 'British' or 'Britishers' quite a lot, and sometimes in reference to themselves depending on their cultural background and connections.

[ousefox]

I only consider myself English because i support the football team really. I like England and Britain but wouldn't say i'm proud to be either. Don't think our country is any better than others around the world, and if it wasn't for friends, family, the football and some of the food, i wouldn't have a problem living in a lot of other countries.

[shen]

Ew no? French or German?

If this is in jest, then it's hardly funny, if you're serious, then you're an ignorant.

[Finnegan]

Acooling is just a thick, xenophobic child. Even the FT right don't bother defending his views.

[Alf Bentley]

I realised that I was British & Irish when I spent time on the continent.

I realised that I was also European when I spent time in Australia.

I could imagine living happily in France or Spain some time in the future, but I'd still be British & Irish. I could just about imagine living in Australia - certainly would love to visit again - but I'd still be European.

I consider myself European.

[FoxyPV]

Bit of a different view here. I'm a TCK (third culture kid), born and raised in the good ol' usa, but my dad is English so I have dual citizenship. With something of a partial accent many ppl over here will refer to me as English/British (or Australian...or Irish... or a New Yorker ....depending on how good their hearing is) even after i tell them i was born in America.

It would be presumptuous to call myself English - British might seem more acceptable somehow, maybe coz that's what the passport says. Dunno. Usually I tell people that 'my family is...' and 99% of the time I suppose I say English over British. Probably depends on the context and whom I'm speaking to.

Had a teacher at school from Northern Ireland, and her son was in my class, anytime I called them Irish they quickly corrected me and said they were British.

A few Pakistani friends over here tend to use 'British' or 'Britishers' quite a lot, and sometimes in reference to themselves depending on their cultural background and connections.

Depends on part of the community you're from over here. Generally Protestants call themselves British and Catholics call themselves Irish.

Nationalism is a pile of wank really. A disperate group of people with different ideals etc are meant to rally round some ethereal conception of unity because geographical location. Doesn't really make any sense.

[SOCCERROO FOX]

I realised that I was British & Irish when I spent time on the continent.

I realised that I was also European when I spent time in Australia.

I could imagine living happily in France or Spain some time in the future, but I'd still be British & Irish. I could just about imagine living in Australia - certainly would love to visit again - but I'd still be European.

You would actually be known as another whinging bloody pom!

[shen]

Depends on part of the community you're from over here. Generally Protestants call themselves British and Catholics call themselves Irish.

Nationalism is a pile of wank really. A disperate group of people with different ideals etc are meant to rally round some ethereal conception of unity because geographical location. Doesn't really make any sense.

Unlike nationality being defined through the place of birth, nationalism is based on common history, culture and language(s), so it's not solely geographical. Although I can relate to your opinion that nationalism in many cases makes no sense.

[Vacamion]

The Scots dont ever seem to call themselves British so why should we English?

Actually thinking about it, I only ever hear English people call themselves British.

Disagree.

Glasgow Rangers fans sing "God Save The Queen", wave Union Jacks and refer to themselves as British.

There's a story in this morning's papers about David Weir the Rangers captain "facing an SFA probe" about wearing a Royal Wedding message on his Ranger's jersey in yesterday's game against Motherwell.

[i'm English and not an Old Firm fan, by the way]

[Alf Bentley]

(1) Bit of a different view here. I'm a TCK (third culture kid), born and raised in the good ol' usa, but my dad is English so I have dual citizenship. It would be presumptuous to call myself English - British might seem more acceptable somehow. A few Pakistani friends over here tend to use 'British' or 'Britishers' quite a lot, and sometimes in reference to themselves depending on their cultural background and connections.

2) Had a teacher at school from Northern Ireland, and her son was in my class, anytime I called them Irish they quickly corrected me and said they were British.

(1) I think an interesting shift is happening: once upon a time, "British" was seen as more imperial, but now it is becoming more inclusive (mixed racial backgrounds accepted) whereas "English" is becoming more exclusive - a bit the preserve of the jingoistic pure-English right. Hopefully the latter won't continue too much.

(2) I went to a lecture once by the Northern Irish loyalist leader David Ervine (RIP); he stressed very strongly that he was British AND Irish (as indeed am I, despite my family being Catholics & Atheists from the Irish Republic...life has more shades than the exclusionists want us to think.... Ervine was an impressive politician, by the way, though his political/cultural background was quite different from mine

[Bert]

English.

When the Olympics is on though, I'll happily support all the Brits but that's the only time I will....

[Alf Bentley]

You would actually be known as another whinging bloody pom!

Then I'd say: "Fair dinkum, but I'm really an ocker Paddy from Europe, yer dags!" That would confuse them!

I'd have loved to have been out there when they lost the Ashes, though. The Aussie are the biggest whingers of the lot - it's just they don't lose often enough for the world to become aware of this!