Who are the rioters, how should we deal with them how do we stop a repeat

[davieG]

I thought a new topic would be appropriate as the other one has become unwieldy, hopeful 'post' rioting.

Here's a start - Who are the rioters?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14489984

[davieG]

Also- http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-14491469

A 12-year-old boy seen running from a looted supermarket carrying a bottle of wine has appeared in court.

The boy, who cannot be named because of his age, admitted burglary when he appeared at youth court sitting at Manchester City Magistrates' Court.

Judge Jonathan Finestein gave him a nine-month referral order.

Police said 145 people have been arrested and 97 charged. Eight were jailed overnight. Two more were jailed on Tuesday, police said.

The boy and his mother swore at reporters outside the court.

A 30-year-old man from Stockport who was caught "red handed" coming out of the looted Maplin electrical store carrying a Macmillan Cancer charity box containing £50, was one of many of the cases dealt with by district judge Alan Berg.

The judge told him: "I have to say, your crime is probably the most despicable and contemptible I have had to deal with all day.

"It is breathtakingly wicked. You ought to be ashamed of yourself."

The man was remanded in custody for sentencing at the crown court.

A 19-year-old student, with no previous convictions, admitted taking a £200 camcorder from Maplin. He was also remanded in custody.

'Utterly intolerable'Another man, 47, from Collyhurst, who has 126 previous convictions, was found with £1,000 worth of jewellery from Links of London in Manchester. He pleaded guilty to handling and will be sentenced at Manchester Crown Court later.

A 21-year-old was spotted by officers in Marks and Spencer holding a shopping basket to carry bottles of champagne he was taking from shelves.

Continue reading the main story

“Start Quote

You came into town for a laugh?”

Judge Alan BergAnother confessed to catching a bus into the city centre to go looting "for a laugh".

Judge Berg told him: "This type of behaviour is utterly intolerable, no civilised society should be expected to put up with it.

"You came into town for a laugh?

"There is nothing remotely amusing about stealing other people's property, breaking into premises and trashing that property."

Greater Manchester Police are continuing to load images of suspects onto its website and Flickr site and have urged people to look at them to see if they recognise anyone.

Meanwhile, the force said it was in the process of returning Manchester and Salford to normality.

[davieG]

Many theories have been posited about the underlying causes of the riots in England - from moral decay to excessive consumerism. Here two criminologists give their views on some of the arguments.

Welfare dependence

Sir Max Hastings, in an article for the Daily Mail, focused on "a perverted social ethos, which elevates personal freedom to an absolute, and denies the underclass the discipline - tough love - which alone might enable some of its members to escape from the swamp of dependency in which they live".

There is a culture of entitlement in the UK, says David Wilson, professor of criminology at Birmingham City University and a former prison governor.

"But it's not just about the underclass - it's about politicians, it's about bankers, it's about footballers.

"It's not just about a particular class, it permeates all levels of society. When we see politicians claiming for flat-screen TVs and getting jailed for fiddling their expenses, it's clear that young people of all classes aren't being given appropriate leadership."

Social exclusion

Writing in the Independent, Kids Company charity founder Camila Batmanghelidjh blamed a society in which the "established community is perceived to provide nothing... It's not one occasional attack on dignity, it's a repeated humiliation, being continuously dispossessed in a society rich with possession".

Studies do suggest that living in areas of social deprivation could be a factor, says Marian FitzGerald, visiting professor of criminology at the University of Kent.

"But the socially excluded are not always the ones who are rioting - in fact they are often the ones who are most vulnerable to riots. We need a better thought-out approach rather than just using social exclusion as an excuse."

Lack of fathers

According to Cristina Odone of the Daily Telegraph, the riots could be traced back to a lack of male role models: "Like the overwhelming majority of youth offenders behind bars, these gang members have one thing in common: no father at home."

"I brought up two boys on my own," says Prof FitzGerald. "Yes, there are some issues about where boys get a positive sense of masculinity from when they don't have anyone in the home to give it. But if you have a stable family set-up then these kids can still be very high-achieving."

Spending cuts

Speaking on the BBC's Newsnight, Labour's candidate for London Mayor, Ken Livingstone, suggested that austerity measures were responsible: "If you're making massive cuts, there's always the potential for this sort of revolt against that."

It's too soon to say this, Prof FitzGerald says. "The full implementation of the cuts to local authority services that will have the biggest impact on these areas will not be fully felt until next year.

"However, it may be that because there's been so much talk about police spending cuts, the rioters may have internalised the message that they're less likely to be caught."

Weak policing

In a leader, the Sun newspaper said it was "crazy" that water cannon was not available to officers, and that parliament "must not be squeamish" about the use of tear gas and baton rounds.

There has also been discussion about the impact of the fall-out from criticism of policing during the G20 protests in London in 2009. Some commentators have suggested officers might be afraid of taking on the rioters directly for fear of legal action.

It may have made some difference if the rioters had been more immediately engaged with a more robust form of policing, says Prof Wilson.

"Several of the rioters who were interviewed clearly enjoyed the feeling of being powerful. They were encouraged to feel that the cities in which they were misbehaving belonged to them.

"However, I don't think that has anything to do with political correctness. What has characterised British justice over the past 25-30 years is the large numbers of young people we have sent to prison compared with our European neighbours."

Racism

Violence began in Tottenham on Saturday after the fatal shooting by police of Mark Duggan, a 29-year-old black man. Christina Patterson of the Independent said the race factor could not be overlooked: "Too many black men have been killed by the police. Too many black men and women have been treated like criminals when they're not. This is not the cause of these riots, but it's there in the mix."

Police shootings are very rare, Prof FitzGerald notes.

"According to IPCC reports in the last three years there have only been seven and all of those - including the shooting of Raoul Moat - were of white people.

"The Met police has seen huge changes in attitude since the Macpherson report. That said, its use of section 60 stop-and-search powers disproportionately brought normally law-abiding young black people in particular into potentially confrontational encounters with the police.

"However, this is not true of many of the other police forces who are now facing similar threats to public order - so it cannot be used as any sort of excuse."

Gangsta rap and culture

Paul Routledge of the Daily Mirror blamed "the pernicious culture of hatred around rap music, which glorifies violence and loathing of authority (especially the police but including parents), exalts trashy materialism and raves about drugs".

It's certainly clear that gang culture is a real phenomenon, says Prof Wilson.

"I once interviewed a boy who said 'just because I like the music doesn't mean I agree with the lyrics', which is true," says Prof FitzGerald. "But it may be a factor when it comes to those who may be particularly susceptible."

Consumerism

"These are shopping riots, characterised by their consumer choices," insisted Zoe Williams of the Guardian. She added: "This is what happens when people don't have anything, when they have their noses constantly rubbed in stuff they can't afford, and they have no reason ever to believe that they will be able to afford it."

In studies of street crime, this has been shown to be a factor, says Prof FitzGerald.

"But with the recent riots, I'm not so sure - in the context of looting, it's about taking what you can. As well as mobile phones and clothes, there were plenty stealing petty things like sweets and cans of beer."

Opportunism

"As more and more people became embroiled in the riots, others have been tempted to join them, confident that one unexceptional individual in a sea of hundreds is unlikely to be caught or to face retribution," according to Carolina Bracken writing in the Irish Times.

This is credible, says Prof Wilson. "Opportunism, mixed with a sense of being in a big gang, will have enticed many who wouldn't necessarily do something like this normally.

"Also significant is the feeling of invulnerability because they are part of something so big. Also linked to this is the feeling of doing something transgressive and feeling powerful in a culture where they don't have much power.

Technology and social networking

"Social media and other methods have been used to organise these levels of greed and criminality," Steve Kavanagh, the deputy assistant commissioner of the Metropolitan police, told reporters.

This is an under-explored phenomenon, suggests Prof Wilson.

"For years we've been aware of gangs and football hooligans have been using technology to get together and fight. I think the police have been quite slow to respond to this.

"But as we know, mobile phones can also be used to counteract criminality and to an extent I think that's something the police prefer to downplay."

[Fox92]

I read somewhere that a boy looted a bin A bin? Out of everything to loot, and you take a bin.

This has got to indicate that these people are mad.

I think the people should face punishment.

[Steven]

Stop listening to the morally and ethically bankrupt people that represent the "authorities" in the UK. <_<

[Rincewind]

The comedy sketch featuring Ronnie Corbett, Ronnie Barker and John Cleese about the three classes in societ still applies today except there are many classes that branch off the top two. The one at the bottom is unchanged apart from those that are trampled underfoot then buried and forgotten about.

The ones arrested for looting etc were from all walks of life yet those at the bottom of the social scale, those living in poor housing and those with little future prospects are being singled out. They are the ones who will be blamed when those better off feel threatened. They have no-one below them to blame so they blame the world in the hope that they will at some point be noticed and helped.

[Zingari]

I read somewhere that a boy looted a bin A bin? Out of everything to loot, and you take a bin.

This has got to indicate that these people are mad.

I think the people should face punishment.

He was the well known terrorist Barmy Bin Lootin

[General Smuts]

I've been looking at the pictures of the looters on The Sun website for a few days now and i swear Frederic Piquonne is the spit of one of them. Is he not on enough at West Ham? Disillusioned with life in the Championship?

[Len Finsbury]

I thought a new topic would be appropriate as the other one has become unwieldy, hopeful 'post' rioting.

Here's a start - Who are the rioters?

http://www.bbc.co.uk...gazine-14489984

It's interesting to read that 70% of those arrested were looting outside of their postcode.

Was it still a local community revolt then?

[Zingari]

It's interesting to read that 70% of those arrested were looting outside of their postcode.

Was it still a local community revolt then?

I saw that but i'm not sure what is meant by outside their postcode , I only have to walk about 20 yards and I'm in a different postcode .

Presumably they mean just the first 3 characters ( such as LE3 ) , but even that could be misleading because anyone involved in city centre rioting won't live in that postcode area , so although it's a little bit interesting I think it doesn't say too much

[davieG]

Not worried any more.

Vaz is on the job!

A Government committee chaired by Leicester East MP Keith Vaz will launch a "wide-ranging" inquiry into the riots when parliament returns in September.

The Home Affairs Select Committee said the investigation would examine the role of social networking in the disturbances, and how to deal with uninsured businesses who were targeted by looters. Mr Vaz said: "We need to look at the issues of compensation for uninsured businesses because, under the Riot Act 1886, that has to come out of the police precept.

"The police simply cannot afford to pay these claims and I am sure the committee will be very concerned about that."

Asked whether cuts to police budgets would also be considered, Mr Vaz said: "Of course, that is going to be part of the inquiry – whether police have sufficient resources."

He added that there was "no indication" from police chiefs that they did not have the resources they need.

[Guest Bilo]

What we must first discount is the theory that the riots were a direct response to governmental policies, they weren't. By the time the rioting had spread outside of London I would be prepared to wager this month's paycheck that the overwhelming majority of those involved wouldn't have a clue who Mark Duggan even was; let alone the circumstances behind his death or the long, bloody history of a police service that has seen over 300 people die in police custody without a single conviction. They wouldn't have had much of a clue about the Tory led spending cuts that have seen youth clubs and projects having their funding cut and they certainly wouldn't know about the growing threat of a double-dip recession brought about by the worsening crisis in the Eurozone.

These weren't the student tuition fees protests, the Poll Tax riots or Broadwater Farm riots which had very specific causes with most of the rioters knowing exactly what the grievances were. This was an outpouring of anger and violence with no single reason, no common cause. If you were to ask the rioters themselves, reasons ranged from striking a blow against 'rich' business owners, to protesting against poor relations between the police and British youth via expressing anger toward British relations with Israel. The fact is this; most didn't have a single, solitary clue why they were there. All they knew was that they were angry and wanted to express their anger through whatever means possible.

The questions then must be:

'Why were they so angry that they would smash up their own community, their own streets and ruin the lives of their neighbours?'

'What did all the rioters have in common?'

The first question brings up some disturbing answers. The fact is that these people don't care about their community, streets or neighbours. They don't care that Mrs Smith at No. 24 is 82 and has lived there since 1957, they've noticed she has an expensive TV and they want it. They don't care that the local furniture store has been a much-loved part of the community for over 150 years, it's owned by a rich bloke and they hate the rich so it must be burned down. How did we get to this point? How did we get from people looking in shops at desirable electrical goods and thinking 'I'll save my wages for that' to 'I must have it NOW and I don't care how so long as it's in my living room by tonight.'? We live in a consumerist society, where you judge fulfillment and success by your wage packet, comfort of living, the car you drive and the clothes you wear. You shop at Waitrose, live in a beautifully furnished four bed detached in a leafy cul-de-sac and drive a Merecedes then you're near the top of the food chain. You know it, you're fulfilled, you're happy. Consumerism loves you because you feed it with your hard-earned, you love it because it gives you everything you want and need. But what if you can't? What if you can only afford to shop at Lidl, live in a rented bedsit over a betting shop with graffiti on its metal shutters and can just about afford to run a clapped out Ford Escort? You're made to feel inferior to Mercedes Man and his four-bed house. You can't afford what he can afford so you can't contribute to a consumerist society nearly as well as he can, the adverts for new cars, sofas and electricals that are tempting to him appear to be making fun of you. You can't afford them, you probably won't ever be able to and yet still you're bombarded with ads. Since the banking crisis, you can't even get easy credit to keep up. If you can get credit at all, it's payday loans at grotesquely inflated rates from loan sharks like wonga.com and quickquid.com at 2000% APR or more. Resentment builds and how under these circumstances can you possibly feel connected to Mercedes Man who seems to have it all so easy? The newspaper advert says you could own a brand new car for 'just' £129 a month. For many people it really is 'just' £129 aa month, for a person struggling on the pay for 30 hours a week at minimum wage with rent to pay, it's unattainable.

What else is clear is that these people do not feel part of any community. Community spirit in many areas of the country is dead, we as a nation barely speak to our neighbours and don't know them. We've gone from a friendly nation that would look after a neighbour's house when he and his wife went away on holiday to not even knowing his name or noticing he's been away for a fortnight. We're more insular as a nation, more individualistic and more wrapped up in our own problems than ever before. How long under those circumstances does it take before we go from not knowing about our neighbours to not caring a jot about them? How long from not caring a jot about our neighbours to not caring about our community as a whole? From there we have the next step, which we have seen in such terrible abundance over the past few days. Seeing your neighbours and community as an opportunity, they have the things you want and that's that. They aren't friends, hard-working people or people to care about; they're opportunities. People who are rich don't have a back story of years of hard work to get there, they're richer than you and can afford the things you want but can't get so they become targets not of aspiration, but of loathing. The commercials don't say you have to work hard to afford their products, just that they're affordable, competitively priced and easy to get hold of. You can't get hold of them? You're a failure, get out of my shop you prole.

It could be argued that this is Thatcherism at its most raw, its most visceral. When she said that 'there is no such thing as society' she opened a can of worms. The quote meant you should look out only for your interests, get what you want from life and don't be burdened by supporting and helping others, get rich without caring how many people you have to step on on the way up. You wanted it Maggie, you got it. A perversion of what you wanted by people you wouldn't have pissed on if they were on fire perhaps, but the basic spirit is still there. The bankers did it in a purer form. The risks they took endangered the savings and accounts of thousands of ordinary people like you and me, but did they care? Did they hell, they wanted to make a massive profit for their banks in the stock exchange so they could get their bonuses so sod the rest, there's money to be made you know. The selfishness and devil-may-care attitude towards others is not confined to the 'yoof' in Adidas tracksuits and Elizabeth Duke jewellery, it permeates from the very top of the food chain right the way down.

Our entire society is sick MPs, not just pockets of it.

[One Arm Babba]

Just saw some more of the scum being interviewed on Sky. Made me sick. They think their actions are vindicated because they tried to get a job. One of the pricks said he looted a shop that he handed a CV in to as payback for not giving him a job.

I've decided that this will be my final post on the subject as it makes me too angry. If it was up to me, I would have every single one of them shot.

[Dr The Singh]

I thought a new topic would be appropriate as the other one has become unwieldy, hopeful 'post' rioting.

Here's a start - Who are the rioters?

http://www.bbc.co.uk...gazine-14489984

Bone there women!!!

[adam1]

Just saw some more of the scum being interviewed on Sky. Made me sick. They think their actions are vindicated because they tried to get a job. One of the pricks said he looted a shop that he handed a CV in to as payback for not giving him a job.

I've decided that this will be my final post on the subject as it makes me too angry. If it was up to me, I would have every single one of them shot.

a lot of 'reasons' given by these people are actually just excuses/defences as to why they should break the law. Unfortunately the defence of 'i tried to get a job' 'i'm getting my taxes back' 'they're rich' 'its the poles' 'its the government' do not stand up in a court of law.

[Rincewind]

Have them all shot? would it not be better to round them all up then put them in concentration camps. Then they could be put in gas chambers. After that is done send the airforce in to bomb the ghettres and the inner city run down council flat tower blocks and schools. Then build blocks of office blocks that will remain empty for the next ten years or £1000 pw luxary apartments as second homes for MP's and banking executives.

Stop the breeding line of the plebs and the rest of us can go about our buisness in peace. Go back to our semi-detactched houses our loving wives and 2.4 kids Jeremy and Cynthia who attend the very best boarding schools.

What a lovely life we will have not having to hear about the under classes who make our life a misery by smashing up Debenhams and M&S preventing us from doing our weekly shopping for new clothes.

Yes rid society of these people now.

[Messi]

Bloody fantastic post there Bilo. Great read and agree with everything in there.

Top work.

[Jon the Hat]

Go back to our semi-detactched houses our loving wives and 2.4 kids Jeremy and Cynthia who attend the very best boarding schools.

Are you insane? No one living in a semi can afford private schools.

[Dr The Singh]

Are you insane? No one living in a semi can afford private schools.

I can but then cannot afford to eat, drink alcohol, buy clothes etc!!!

And what's wrong with living in a semi!!

[Guest Bilo]

I can but then cannot afford to eat, drink alcohol, buy clothes etc!!!

And what's wrong with living in a semi!!

Yeah, I have a semi.

Not that you wanted to know like, just saying.

[Trav Le Bleu]

Yeah, I have a semi.

Not that you wanted to know like, just saying.

Singh meant a house.

Not one of these...

What did you think I meant?

[Dr The Singh]

Singh meant a house.

Not one of these...

What did you think I meant?

Just got a semi looking at that!!

[Trav Le Bleu]

Just got a semi looking at that!!

My mission for the day is accomplished.

[Rincewind]

I'll remove my tongue from my cheek now.

[Daggers]

I want one.