Racism @ florist again

[Finnegan]

No because Swansea and Cardiff fans aren't English, they are Welsh. The only reason chanting 'Ingerlund' by Forest against us is because it emplies that black or asian people born in Leicester aren't English when they technically are.

He... he understands!!

This is a big day for you, buddy, I'm proud.

[Bettsj2]

Brian Cough?

Ha!

I take a lot of what you say MattP and wish I could agree with you.

Hopefully one day, we'll reach a point where genuine racism is such a thing of the past, that any kind of incidents like these we'll all be completely at ease with and be able to look upon them with the same shrug of the shoulders that you and some others are. Unfortunately those days are not here yet.

The video of the chanting and the 'town full of paki's' abuse go hand in hand. There is no way the chants on the video are refering to anything other than the City's multicultural element. I doubt very much many fans outside of Leicester know who our owners are. I could be wrong but I doubt it very much.

I really dont want to be offended by this sort of stuff and certainly dont see it as 'fashionable' to be so. I can see why you would think that as there are some out there that are a little bit over sensitive but having said that and speaking as someone who has suffered racial abuse in the past, it's difficult when you've suffered once to not suffer again or be offended again by things not directly associated with you. If you havent suffered racism personally then I doubt you could ever actually understand what that feels like. I often hear the argument, 'what about calling someone ginger or fat? That's just as offensive.' Although it would be hurtful, it certainly isnt the same thing.

I dont want to hear 'town full of paki's', see the captain of my country call another player a 'black ****' or see a young lad crying on the pitch after being abused by someone in the crowd. If we all bury our heads in the sand or take the 'just ignore it and it will go away' route (something that after complaining to a teacher when I was at school about racist abuse they told me to do, yet 15 years later here we are!!) we'll never get to the truly harmonious society that we all deserve.

Like I said earlier, I cannot wait for the day where this sort of stuff isnt offensive to anyone anymore but when more and more incidents (and high profile ones at that!!) are going on, the quicker it can be stamped out the better and we wont have to have any of these conversations anymore.

Of course it would help if Richie Wellens wasnt so shit.

[paulsherwood1]

this video is still on youtube. I have tweeted the following people ( see if anyone listens!) with a link to it:

Stan collymore

Mike Parry

Talksport breakfast ( saggers and Quinn )

Nigel Doughty ( forest chairmen ) copied stringer

Nottinghamshire police

Geoff Peters ( City fan and occasional talksport journo )

And finally skysports news....

I urge you all to do the same! Lets wipe the face off these scum!

[Guest MattP]

Ha!

I take a lot of what you say MattP and wish I could agree with you.

Hopefully one day, we'll reach a point where genuine racism is such a thing of the past, that any kind of incidents like these we'll all be completely at ease with and be able to look upon them with the same shrug of the shoulders that you and some others are. Unfortunately those days are not here yet.

The video of the chanting and the 'town full of paki's' abuse go hand in hand. There is no way the chants on the video are refering to anything other than the City's multicultural element. I doubt very much many fans outside of Leicester know who our owners are. I could be wrong but I doubt it very much.

I really dont want to be offended by this sort of stuff and certainly dont see it as 'fashionable' to be so. I can see why you would think that as there are some out there that are a little bit over sensitive but having said that and speaking as someone who has suffered racial abuse in the past, it's difficult when you've suffered once to not suffer again or be offended again by things not directly associated with you. If you havent suffered racism personally then I doubt you could ever actually understand what that feels like. I often hear the argument, 'what about calling someone ginger or fat? That's just as offensive.' Although it would be hurtful, it certainly isnt the same thing.

I dont want to hear 'town full of paki's', see the captain of my country call another player a 'black ****' or see a young lad crying on the pitch after being abused by someone in the crowd. If we all bury our heads in the sand or take the 'just ignore it and it will go away' route (something that after complaining to a teacher when I was at school about racist abuse they told me to do, yet 15 years later here we are!!) we'll never get to the truly harmonious society that we all deserve.

Like I said earlier, I cannot wait for the day where this sort of stuff isnt offensive to anyone anymore but when more and more incidents (and high profile ones at that!!) are going on, the quicker it can be stamped out the better and we wont have to have any of these conversations anymore.

Of course it would help if Richie Wellens wasnt so shit.

But chanting "Youre not English anymore" and "Town full of Pakis" don't go hand in hand, one is a dig as possibly our side, possibly our owners or maybe a dig at the City's ethnic population. The other is a clearly racist chant that anyone would be immediately arrested for should a copper hear you singing it.

When we sang "You're not English anymore" at Arsenal it was a dig at the fact they played no Englishman and had a French manager, we didnt follow it up with "team full of Ni*gers" or similar. They are on such a different level it's not worth talking about.

I have suffered racist abuse on a number of occasions, obviously not on the scale of mass chanting in a stadium (unless you count Scotland V England) but I just don;t see whats in that video as anything that bad.

In fact I would go as far to say spreading the video around and complaining makes us look very limp wristed and probably takes away attention from the absurd racism we should be contacting people about that Singh has described in the first post.

[leicesterseddon]

Why are automatically assuming its a song based on ethnicity?

How do you it doesn't refer to the foreign players we have signed or the ownership we have now got?

I remember singing "you're not English anymore" at Arsenal at Highbury, were all the Leicester fans that day racist?

Well, let's face it...in this country, racism against the French/Irish/Southern Europeans (and even, to some extent, the Chinese) is tolerated, whilst racism against people who are black or Asian is not. One of the hypocrisies of our society to be honest, and one that's probably rooted in a collective sense of guilt over things like the Empire and the slave trade. The Morally Outraged like to claim that racism is about treating people equally regardless of ethnic background - but that's not exactly true in practice I don't think.

Agree with your point about taking offense becoming a fashion statement totally. Just look at the stuff on the net about David Cameron and the Tourette's syndrome comment. Personally, I blame Twitter...

[paulsherwood1]

How anyone can fail to see this video as anything other than racism I don't know! Its obvious whats happening, its racism and that is that. Yes they dont use any racist words, but its pretty obvious what they are doing.

When it comes to racism we should have zero tolerance!

[couls]

'

I would say Clough would be ashamed to be associated with the club but he himself was a complete spastic'

AND THIS IS ACCEPTABLE IS IT? FFS use your brain! twats

[Finnegan]

I agree it's not the most extreme example of racist abuse but I think you'd have to be seriously clutching at straws to think that it wasn't a dig at the city's ethnic population. You sing two chants, with the same intent and meaning (even acooling got it, ffs) - one isn't considerably less offensive just because it doesn't have the P-Word in it.

You're an intelligent adult, Matt, you're smart enough to know that context here is just as important - if not more so - than the words used. Hell, you can be racist without uttering a syllable.

Fans singing to Arsenal, in the height of their Fraincais-centric era, "you're not English any more" might be being somewhat xenophobic but they're quite obviously not being disparaging about a town's entire populace. You know this, they knew this, we all know this. And we all know why Forest were at it yesterday.

No point defending them.

[zigga-zagga]

I am probably looking at this from a completely different angle from the vast majority of people for several reasons including my age, personal experience and the fact that I am a Forest fan living in South Leicestershire.

Firstly as a Forest fan can I point out that my season ticket is in B Block and yes, I was at the match yesterday. It seemed to me that the chants that people are getting so angry about mainly came from the area around me in B Block although most appeared to be started by a few morons in A Block. The reason that more noise was coming from B Block is that there are no concessionary tickets in A Block and, as a consequence, when these chavs attend a match they tend to head for B Block. Forest, like Leicester I imagine, have Kids for a Quid matches and other promotions and these result in an inordinate amount of idiots in the area surrounding us. Looking at the attendance yesterday I would guess that it was a day when many season tickets decided not to take advantage of the reduced admission but allowed younger friends and relatives to buy cheap tickets. There was little genuine interest in yesterday's match, perhaps because we aren't playing very well at the moment or perhaps because many of our fans don't attach as much importance to matches between our clubs as appears to be the case with your fans. Anyway, I digress, the fact is that much of the abuse cane from the occasional attendee not the true fans.

Next, my age. When I was growing up any verbal abuse was met with the saying "sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me", or something similar. My mother always said that I should never let the abuser see that I was affected and they would soon stop if no reaction was evident and she was right. I have followed my mother's advice all my life, I have always been on the "large side" and in arguements the most significant difference between the two protaganists is always seized upon, hence I have lost count of the number of times I have been called a "fat b*!tard" but I have ignored it and it has soon stopped.

Similarly, in my own experience in living and working in Africa (not South Africa) I have been racially abused and suffered open discrimination but have not allowed the culprit to see that it has affected me and, ultimately, I have come out of the experience a stronger person.

I am in no way condoning the behaviour of Forest fans yesterday and I do admit that most of the time when I come on to this forum it is with the sole intent of winding people up but this is not the case this time. I feel that we are getting swept away on a wave of hysteria, not just Forest and Leicester but the whole country, and we are allowing the culprits the pleasure of seeing the results. We should be big enough to ignore this "petty racism" and concentrate on the more dangerous openly racist activities of organizations like the NF and BNP. It is useless trying to educate the kind of people who were chanting yesterday so let us not dignify their actions with a reaction

[Callabinho]

Brian Cough?

Iphone, you know what I mean haha

[Guest MattP]

I agree it's not the most extreme example of racist abuse but I think you'd have to be seriously clutching at straws to think that it wasn't a dig at the city's ethnic population. You sing two chants, with the same intent and meaning (even acooling got it, ffs) - one isn't considerably less offensive just because it doesn't have the P-Word in it.

You're an intelligent adult, Matt, you're smart enough to know that context here is just as important - if not more so - than the words used. Hell, you can be racist without uttering a syllable.

Fans singing to Arsenal, in the height of their Fraincais-centric era, "you're not English any more" might be being somewhat xenophobic but they're quite obviously not being disparaging about a town's entire populace. You know this, they knew this, we all know this. And we all know why Forest were at it yesterday.

No point defending them.

Fair enough, maybe I'm giving them far more leniancy than they deserve.

I still don't know how the FA could take any action over this sort of chanting mind, we might know/suspect it's has racist overtones but I have no idea how you would prove that. Like I said earlier though, I'd prefer to be pushing the aggressive nature of their fans outside the ground with the 'town full of pakis" stuff than pushing this video out to the world.

[Thracian]

Contacting the police over a man using the term "ethnically challenged" and a song of "you're not English anymore" Jesus guys man up Ffs. Forest can get off that ond easily by saying its a song directed at our ownership anyway....

Far more concerning is the stuff in the first post as that seems genuinely racist and had the potential to cause disorder. That's what you should be contacting the police about as it seems to happen every time we go there.

Genuine racism needs dealing with, people have become absolutely obsessed with being offended now, it's almost become a fashion statement.

I was there with two others and there is no question the baiting referred to by Singhy was blatantly racist. No provocation, no gestures, no ifs, no buts and no excuses of any kind. I winced when I heard it and it was only Singhy's good sense in not reacting to what could easily have been an explosive situation that avoided a whole heap of potential shit.

Little wonder he remains concerned about taking his young lad to matches.

I've been vociferous in condemning all sorts of anti-white racism in this country and my contempt for those who have fostered, encouraged or closed a blind eye to it is almost beyond expression but Nottingham Forest as a club and its fans as a community should be ashamed of these people.

They should be out of football for good.

[Finnegan]

I was there with two others and there is no question the baiting referred to by Singhy was blatantly racist. No provocation, no gestures, no ifs, no buts and no excuses of any kind. I winced when I heard it and it was only Singhy's good sense in not reacting to what could easily have been an explosive situation that avoided a whole heap of potential shit.

Little wonder he remains concerned about taking his young lad to matches.

I've been vociferous in condemning all sorts of anti-white racism in this country and my contempt for those who have fostered, encouraged or closed a blind eye to it is almost beyond expression but Nottingham Forest as a club and its fans as a community should be ashamed of these people.

They should be out of football for good.

[wellyfox]

this video is still on youtube. I have tweeted the following people ( see if anyone listens!) with a link to it:

Stan collymore

Mike Parry

Talksport breakfast ( saggers and Quinn )

Nigel Doughty ( forest chairmen ) copied stringer

Nottinghamshire police

Geoff Peters ( City fan and occasional talksport journo )

And finally skysports news....

I urge you all to do the same! Lets wipe the face off these scum!

Have you got the link to the video?

If so post it and everyone mail it to the FA and any government email address?

Also put a link to this thread on it.

Sorry if this has been said but not going through all the pages.

[Bilo]

I was there with two others and there is no question the baiting referred to by Singhy was blatantly racist. No provocation, no gestures, no ifs, no buts and no excuses of any kind. I winced when I heard it and it was only Singhy's good sense in not reacting to what could easily have been an explosive situation that avoided a whole heap of potential shit.

Little wonder he remains concerned about taking his young lad to matches.

I've been vociferous in condemning all sorts of anti-white racism in this country and my contempt for those who have fostered, encouraged or closed a blind eye to it is almost beyond expression but Nottingham Forest as a club and its fans as a community should be ashamed of these people.

They should be out of football for good.

Spot on.

A vile club stuck in the 1980s in every way imaginable.

I feel for those on the streets of Yeovil and Bury when they're spilling their bile on their streets next season.

Hope you and yours are OK as well Singhy if you're reading this mate.

[jonah]

How anyone can fail to see this video as anything other than racism I don't know! Its obvious whats happening, its racism and that is that. Yes they dont use any racist words, but its pretty obvious what they are doing.

When it comes to racism we should have zero tolerance!

Excellent well done you, hope it makes you feel better... now while you at it can you scrawl through you tube and send in all the video,s for me, of any body slagging off the Welsh and calling us sheep shaggers, tafffy,s, inbreds, or is that not racism??? hang on though maybe some comments on here suggest that its country rivalry in which case its not racist to call me a sheep shagger?? proberlby because im white huh??

So what happens if im actually of indian or pakistani origin but was born in Wales ??? does that mean because of the colour of my skin calling me a Sheep shagger becomes racist ???

Its all complete bollocks ... so called racist chants at football matches have always been there and will always be there along with homsexual chants, chants about people overweight, chants about the state of the city of town they live in, chants against players infidelity etc its all part parcel of football terrace chanting. Some i will join in with, some i find offensive(brian clough, munich air crash, gary speed), some i just ignore but all i accept as part and parcel of football terrace chanting.

Now if i choose not to accept it and decide something must be done then where do we stop??

we start with our racist chanting and stop that, but if we do then surely we also have to stop white,s calling white,s because one set comes from england and one set comes from Wales, we stop blacks calling blacks, because also one set comes from england and one set comes from Wales (notice how i spell Wales with a capital and england without!!!! ) we do this because its offensive to the particular group, however part of that group are also homosexual so we then ban those chants because there offensive to part of the group, which of course because we dont have these 2 groups to chant about we look for others and the fat bloke gets asked if he,s ate all the pies which in turn makes all the overweight people in the crowd complain of victimisation and we then have no choice to ban all chants surrounding peoples weight and so on and so on.

Im all for ingnorant people whether they be individual or as a group to be hauled up if the abuse is directed at one particular individual or harressment is prolonged and aimed at causing trouble within communities i.e if a Pakistani is abused in the street or at a football match or any where else for that matter regardless of whether its aimed at his race or not then that should be stamped out.

But most terrace chanting is banter betwen 2 sets of opposing fans not aimed at anyone in particular unless there on the pitch (in which case its the players choice as to whether he makes an issue of it, not ours)

There was a post on here earlier from a Forest fan which claims that this has nothing to do with racism as such but more to do with our rivalry with Forest and the fact we will pick up on anything we can to abuse there fans and i think he was spot on.

[ithuriel]

I was there with two others and there is no question the baiting referred to by Singhy was blatantly racist. No provocation, no gestures, no ifs, no buts and no excuses of any kind. I winced when I heard it and it was only Singhy's good sense in not reacting to what could easily have been an explosive situation that avoided a whole heap of potential shit.

Little wonder he remains concerned about taking his young lad to matches.

I've been vociferous in condemning all sorts of anti-white racism in this country and my contempt for those who have fostered, encouraged or closed a blind eye to it is almost beyond expression but Nottingham Forest as a club and its fans as a community should be ashamed of these people.

They should be out of football for good.

I was not there but i doubt Thrac and a fair few others would lie about this and i agree with him that it is not on.

Maybe because Florist support these days is so dire now they are struggling against relegation has pushed the idiotic minority into being the majority and are vocally showing the club up.

Instead of Florist fans coming here to try and defend this shower or trying to be clever by blaming their declining support on us not being Derby they should try and educate the racial numpties who are in their support.

[Finnegan]

On behalf of the good section of Welsh society that isn't still stuck in the nineteen eighties can I kindly ask you to grow the **** up and stop giving us a bad name?

Whilst it pains me to turn on a compatriot, there's really no comparison between outright racist abuse and the Ingermongs calling us sheep shaggers, is there? I haven't been offended by a sheep joke since I was six years old and weirdly enough, no, it wouldn't suddenly become racist if I was black - are you mad? Are Earnie or Gabbidon supposed to be more offended by those chants than Bale and Gunts? Jesus.

Racism is racism, silly, shit banter is silly, shit banter. Shouldn't take a rocket scientist to distinguish the two. It might have "always been a part of terrace chanting" but that doesn't mean it always has to be. We can progress, we can actually move forward without losing "edge" or becoming soft. You can have a laugh and a joke without implying that everyone who isn't "Anglo-Saxon" doesn't belong in England.

[Guest MattP]

I was there with two others and there is no question the baiting referred to by Singhy was blatantly racist. No provocation, no gestures, no ifs, no buts and no excuses of any kind. I winced when I heard it and it was only Singhy's good sense in not reacting to what could easily have been an explosive situation that avoided a whole heap of potential shit.

Little wonder he remains concerned about taking his young lad to matches.

I've been vociferous in condemning all sorts of anti-white racism in this country and my contempt for those who have fostered, encouraged or closed a blind eye to it is almost beyond expression but Nottingham Forest as a club and its fans as a community should be ashamed of these people.

They should be out of football for good.

Totally agree with every word and I don't think I've said anything that would disagree with this.

[fatmando]

I am probably looking at this from a completely different angle from the vast majority of people for several reasons including my age, personal experience and the fact that I am a Forest fan living in South Leicestershire.

Firstly as a Forest fan can I point out that my season ticket is in B Block and yes, I was at the match yesterday. It seemed to me that the chants that people are getting so angry about mainly came from the area around me in B Block although most appeared to be started by a few morons in A Block. The reason that more noise was coming from B Block is that there are no concessionary tickets in A Block and, as a consequence, when these chavs attend a match they tend to head for B Block. Forest, like Leicester I imagine, have Kids for a Quid matches and other promotions and these result in an inordinate amount of idiots in the area surrounding us. Looking at the attendance yesterday I would guess that it was a day when many season tickets decided not to take advantage of the reduced admission but allowed younger friends and relatives to buy cheap tickets. There was little genuine interest in yesterday's match, perhaps because we aren't playing very well at the moment or perhaps because many of our fans don't attach as much importance to matches between our clubs as appears to be the case with your fans. Anyway, I digress, the fact is that much of the abuse cane from the occasional attendee not the true fans.

Next, my age. When I was growing up any verbal abuse was met with the saying "sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me", or something similar. My mother always said that I should never let the abuser see that I was affected and they would soon stop if no reaction was evident and she was right. I have followed my mother's advice all my life, I have always been on the "large side" and in arguements the most significant difference between the two protaganists is always seized upon, hence I have lost count of the number of times I have been called a "fat b*!tard" but I have ignored it and it has soon stopped.

Similarly, in my own experience in living and working in Africa (not South Africa) I have been racially abused and suffered open discrimination but have not allowed the culprit to see that it has affected me and, ultimately, I have come out of the experience a stronger person.

I am in no way condoning the behaviour of Forest fans yesterday and I do admit that most of the time when I come on to this forum it is with the sole intent of winding people up but this is not the case this time. I feel that we are getting swept away on a wave of hysteria, not just Forest and Leicester but the whole country, and we are allowing the culprits the pleasure of seeing the results. We should be big enough to ignore this "petty racism" and concentrate on the more dangerous openly racist activities of organizations like the NF and BNP. It is useless trying to educate the kind of people who were chanting yesterday so let us not dignify their actions with a reaction

+1

I agree that alot of people make the situation worse by reacting the way they do.

[jonah]

On behalf of the good section of Welsh society that isn't still stuck in the nineteen eighties can I kindly ask you to grow the **** up and stop giving us a bad name?

Whilst it pains me to turn on a compatriot, there's really no comparison between outright racist abuse and the Ingermongs calling us sheep shaggers, is there? I haven't been offended by a sheep joke since I was six years old and weirdly enough, no, it wouldn't suddenly become racist if I was black - are you mad? Are Earnie or Gabbidon supposed to be more offended by those chants than Bale and Gunts? Jesus.

Racism is racism, silly, shit banter is silly, shit banter. Shouldn't take a rocket scientist to distinguish the two. It might have "always been a part of terrace chanting" but that doesn't mean it always has to be. We can progress, we can actually move forward without losing "edge" or becoming soft. You can have a laugh and a joke without implying that everyone who isn't "Anglo-Saxon" doesn't belong in England.

Finnegan if you actually read my post i actually do state that outright racist abuse is not right and should not be tolerated but general chanting which for example says "we are a town full of paki,s" is not in my opinion outright racial abuse its just general terrace banter which some people find offensive and some dont thr same as some people find homosexual banter offensive and some dont.

Is there a difference between being called a sheep shagger because i come from Wales and being called a Paki because i come or originate from Pakistan?? well i have no problem with being called a sheep shagger by friends and such or even on football terraces from the opposing crowd or my own set of fans if we are playing a Welsh team, and the same would be said if i was Pakistani or english with Pakistani origins, too me the word Paki is surely just a shortening of Pakistani?? why would i be offended by that if it wasnt directed directly at me??

However if i was singled out by a group of people and abused because i was Welsh then i would find that offensive and i would deal with it accordingly and the same if i was Pakistani and went through the same issue.

The point i was making was that if its general terrace banter then leave it at that and turn a deaf ear to what you dont like but if its directed at yourself and becomes a personal attack on you then no matter what your race, creed, religion or sexual tendancy for that matter it should be dealt with.

[Finnegan]

Like I said to Matt, though, it's about context and intent isn't it? And to a certain extent history.

The word 'nigger', for example, is as offensive as it is because of the historical meaning behind it. It's a word used to disparage and put-down an entire race of people, throughout an era in which they were treated as mainly second class citizens (or worse.) 'Paki' is exactly the same, not only is it extremely offensive to people who are from Pakistan because of it's historical context but, worse than that, it's used offensively to describe everybody who appears to be of a South-Asian ethnicity whether they're from Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka or anywhere else. By using it, someone's essentially saying they refuse to acknowledge a difference. It's hugely offensive.

Where as, in context, what's being called a sheep shagger? A bit of a crap joke because there's a lot of sheep farming in Wales? Come on, it just doesn't compare. 'Paki', 'Nigger', 'Chink', words like these have been used to make people from ethnic minorities feel targeted and unwelcome in our society for decades and they're completely deplorable as a result. Nobody's ever called me a sheep-shagger with anything less than a tongue in their cheek and a silly smirk on their face expecting a bit of banter in reply. That's the difference.

And it's a massive difference.

[accessory]

For the last decade at least, the FA have proclaimed its commitment to eliminating racism in football.

Yet this weekend, at least two games (ours and the one at Anfield) in its flagship competition have been disfigured by racial abuse. Given the worldwide interest in the FA Cup, the authorities should be concerned about the effects such incidents have upon on their image and reputation.

To those trees who attempt to dismiss yesterday's events as merely banter between neighbouring clubs (I would have said "rivals" but Forest don't quite that category these days) I can assure them it isn't. If fans from MIllwall, Leeds or anywhere else had acted in such a vile and reprehensible fashion, we would have been shocked and angered.

But even those clubs have moved into the 21st century. A group of "fans", who associate themselves with Nottingham Forest, clearly have not. They bring shame upon the whole club and the vast majority of its fanbase who will be deeply ashamed by such ignorance and bigotry.

The FA and the police have the evidence before them. I'd expect one of those bodies to take appropriate action.

[JmorsonLCFC]

I didn't quote either of those songs did I? I referred to the video that was reported to the police.

If you have those songs on video I'd absolutely recommend they were forwarded to the relevant authorities.

yes but clearly it wasn't just the songs shown in the video that were sung, as previously stated by other posters.

[jonah]

Like I said to Matt, though, it's about context and intent isn't it? And to a certain extent history.

The word 'nigger', for example, is as offensive as it is because of the historical meaning behind it. It's a word used to disparage and put-down an entire race of people, throughout an era in which they were treated as mainly second class citizens (or worse.) 'Paki' is exactly the same, not only is it extremely offensive to people who are from Pakistan because of it's historical context but, worse than that, it's used offensively to describe everybody who appears to be of a South-Asian ethnicity whether they're from Pakistan, India, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka or anywhere else. By using it, someone's essentially saying they refuse to acknowledge a difference. It's hugely offensive.

Where as, in context, what's being called a sheep shagger? A bit of a crap joke because there's a lot of sheep farming in Wales? Come on, it just doesn't compare. 'Paki', 'Nigger', 'Chink', words like these have been used to make people from ethnic minorities feel targeted and unwelcome in our society for decades and they're completely deplorable as a result. Nobody's ever called me a sheep-shagger with anything less than a tongue in their cheek and a silly smirk on their face expecting a bit of banter in reply. That's the difference.

And it's a massive difference.

To a degree i agree with you, but thats only because i agree with the term Sheep Shagger as being a joke and non offensive, but what happens if i didnt?? what happens if i found the whole notion of because i am Welsh i have sex with animals repulsive and extremly offensive??

Would not then the term sheepshagger lie in the same catogory as "nigger" or "paki"??? and i am sure that there are Welsh people who do.

So that means if we ban these chants in terraces because a certain segment find them offensive then we have to ban all chanting surrounding peoples origins because its not right for us or anybody else to differentiate as to what offends a certain persons race.