Animal rights

[ozleicester]

A very interesting watch and listen, it does require a commitment of more than an hour and i imagine for most it is either too challenging, or boring or reactionary, nevertheless if youve got an hour to spare and an interest in animal rights, its worth a watch. (beware, a small amount (<3 mins) graphic footage, you get warned, but be ready)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4

 

Just to make it clear that i do not agree with everything the speaker says or suggests.

 

 

edit, ive never seen the QandA before, but that link is here, it answers (much more articulately than me) nearly all of the questions posed previously in this thread, its about 30 mins, makes very interesting watching.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_166462&feature=iv&src_vid=es6U00LMmC4&v=WIkC4OJEx3c

[ozleicester]

These fvckers are at it again!

 

When will people realise that animals are sentient creatures that do not exist simply for us to do with as we wish.

 

Citing the “pride’s natural structure and behavior,†the Copenhagen Zoo said Tuesday that two old lions had been euthanized as part of a generational shift.

 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/after-giraffe-uproar-copenhagen-zoo-kills-4-lions/2014/03/25/8d2b224e-b442-11e3-bab2-b9602293021d_story.html

 

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/684/789/994/tell-copenhagen-zoo-to-stop-killing-healthy-animals/?z00m=20915833

[The Doctor]

These fvckers are at it again!

 

When will people realise that animals are sentient creatures that do not exist simply for us to do with as we wish.

 

Citing the “pride’s natural structure and behavior,†the Copenhagen Zoo said Tuesday that two old lions had been euthanized as part of a generational shift.

 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/after-giraffe-uproar-copenhagen-zoo-kills-4-lions/2014/03/25/8d2b224e-b442-11e3-bab2-b9602293021d_story.html

 

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/684/789/994/tell-copenhagen-zoo-to-stop-killing-healthy-animals/?z00m=20915833

 

You realise in the wild, old lions will leave the pride having been ousted by the younger ones. What they're doing is replicating the natural environment as best they can for the lions - far better than a normal zoo as far as preserving the natural behaviour and making reintroduction possible. Nature is a heartless bitch, deal with it.

[ozleicester]

You realise in the wild, old lions will leave the pride having been ousted by the younger ones. What they're doing is replicating the natural environment as best they can for the lions - far better than a normal zoo as far as preserving the natural behaviour and making reintroduction possible. Nature is a heartless bitch, deal with it.

 

Im all for nature and more than understand its sometimes apparent cruelty. I also understand that nature kills lions off in the wild well before they are dying in zoos, but life is about more than avoiding death

 

Lions in nature will often travel in excess of 15 kilometres a day.. but we stick them in a 50 square metre cage so that snot nosed little johnies can wander up, stare at them for 2 minutes before complaining that they arent doing anything and walk off looking for the next bit of "entertainment".

 

They are not even close to replicating  (or even trying to replicate) the natural environment, they are trying to find the easiest way to make money from over indulged humans and if that means half a dozen animals are surplus to requirements then fvck it lets just kill em off and get some new ones.

 

Catching, locking up, breeding and then killing wild, innocent animals is not nature...and more importantly is UNNECESSARY. 

 

edit, just thought id have a look at the Copenhagen zoo to see how much "natural environment" they dedicate to these creatures. Have a look at the map attached... the lions get about half the amount of space that is put aside for the humans to sit around and eat in.. and look at them 

 

http://uk.zoo.dk/VisitZoo/~/media/Files/Map%20English%203013.ashx

 

  Statement by Association of Zoos and Aquariums Regarding the Euthanasia of Giraffe at the Copenhagen Zoo  

[Darkon84]

Im all for nature and more than understand its sometimes apparent cruelty. I also understand that nature kills lions off in the wild well before they are dying in zoos, but life is about more than avoiding death

 

Lions in nature will often travel in excess of 15 kilometres a day.. but we stick them in a 50 square metre cage so that snot nosed little johnies can wander up, stare at them for 2 minutes before complaining that they arent doing anything and walk off looking for the next bit of "entertainment".

 

They are not even close to replicating  (or even trying to replicate) the natural environment, they are trying to find the easiest way to make money from over indulged humans and if that means half a dozen animals are surplus to requirements then fvck it lets just kill em off and get some new ones.

 

Catching, locking up, breeding and then killing wild, innocent animals is not nature...and more importantly is UNNECESSARY. 

 

edit, just thought id have a look at the Copenhagen zoo to see how much "natural environment" they dedicate to these creatures. Have a look at the map attached... the lions get about half the amount of space that is put aside for the humans to sit around and eat in.. and look at them 

 

http://uk.zoo.dk/VisitZoo/~/media/Files/Map%20English%203013.ashx

 

  Statement by Association of Zoos and Aquariums Regarding the Euthanasia of Giraffe at the Copenhagen Zoo  

 

 

Do you honestly believe that every time a zoo requires an animal, they go out on to the Serengeti and capture a new one? You certainly have a poor grasp of how Zoos and conservation/breeding projects work. Copenhagen have been doing this line of conservation for years, and no-one batted an eyelid before. They are experts on it and know a great deal more than you, or I. What they also try to do there, is to give children and adults an education, rather than just pointing at animals in an enclosure. They have displays and even games around the enclosures trying to show nature's more cruel and realistic side, such as The Doc said above.

  

Do you think it's fair that the staff there have received death threats? That's a really great way to go about getting your point across .

 

The link from the AZA doesn't really say a lot. It just seems to be a way of them saying 'it was them, not us'. It states that they carefully manage the genetic diversity (which I imagine will at very least, be the sale and transport of some animals, which you disagree with anyway), and also to prevent births. . Sounds like they may actively abort pregnancies, or prevent them from mating, which as you would say, is a totally natural thing for them to do. You can't pick and choose arguments like that. You can't use something you disagree with, against something else you disagree with haha.

 

A different day, a different quote...

 

 

"Conservation is not always simple. It's not always clean," said Lesley Dickie, executive director of the European Association of Zoos and Aquaria, a European body governing 345 institutions.

"I'm afraid that when we have limited space in zoos -- and it's limited because of problems in the wild, of course, and more and more animals need our help -- then we sometimes have to make these really tough decisions."

 

 

 

Don't know about you, but that enclosure looks alright to me. And as for the map? I'm not entirely convinced that's all to scale.

 

[ozleicester]

Do you honestly believe that every time a zoo requires an animal, they go out on to the Serengeti and capture a new one? You certainly have a poor grasp of how Zoos and conservation/breeding projects work. Copenhagen have been doing this line of conservation for years, and no-one batted an eyelid before. They are experts on it and know a great deal more than you, or I. What they also try to do there, is to give children and adults an education, rather than just pointing at animals in an enclosure. They have displays and even games around the enclosures trying to show nature's more cruel and realistic side, such as The Doc said above.

  

Do you think it's fair that the staff there have received death threats? That's a really great way to go about getting your point across .

 

The link from the AZA doesn't really say a lot. It just seems to be a way of them saying 'it was them, not us'. It states that they carefully manage the genetic diversity (which I imagine will at very least, be the sale and transport of some animals, which you disagree with anyway), and also to prevent births. . Sounds like they may actively abort pregnancies, or prevent them from mating, which as you would say, is a totally natural thing for them to do. You can't pick and choose arguments like that. You can't use something you disagree with, against something else you disagree with haha.

 

A different day, a different quote...

 

 

 

 

Don't know about you, but that enclosure looks alright to me. And as for the map? I'm not entirely convinced that's all to scale.

 

 

umm...No.. i do not think they go out and catch one when required, I never said they did, They breed them and then kill them at wil for entertainmentl.

 

Just because they have done it for years.. doesnt mean it should continue... and its not conservation, Copenhagen doesn't offer any value to the conservation of lions.. they breed, keep and KILL for profit.

 

They may well know more than you or I.. that doesnt make them right and putting a couple of TVs next to the enclosures does not make it any better.

 

No i dont think its right that they received death threats.. do you think its right that we should be able to kill animals so we can be entertained?

 

The enclosure looks OK to you.. well thats ok then... do you really think that a tiny.. (and it is tiny in comparison to their natural environment) unnatural FENCED area is a suitable way to treat an animal?

 

 

Oh and as for "what i would say"... i dont think you know what i would say or think, and you are making some large leaps to assume they actively abort etc.

 

we as humans should not have the right to kill animals for our entertainment or pleasure is what i think and say

[OzFox]

Don't know about you, but that enclosure looks alright to me. And as for the map? I'm not entirely convinced that's all to scale.

 

  You know how much space lions have in their (rapidly diminishing) natural habitat?

 

There's nothing "natural" about that enclosure, or any other zoo pen for that matter

[Darkon84]

umm...No.. i do not think they go out and catch one when required, I never said they did, They breed them and then kill them at wil for entertainmentl.

 

Just because they have done it for years.. doesnt mean it should continue... and its not conservation, Copenhagen doesn't offer any value to the conservation of lions.. they breed, keep and KILL for profit.

 

They may well know more than you or I.. that doesnt make them right and putting a couple of TVs next to the enclosures does not make it any better.

 

No i dont think its right that they received death threats.. do you think its right that we should be able to kill animals so we can be entertained?

 

The enclosure looks OK to you.. well thats ok then... do you really think that a tiny.. (and it is tiny in comparison to their natural environment) unnatural FENCED area is a suitable way to treat an animal?

 

 

Oh and as for "what i would say"... i dont think you know what i would say or think, and you are making some large leaps to assume they actively abort etc.

 

we as humans should not have the right to kill animals for our entertainment or pleasure is what i think and say

 

 

The part where you said 'catching, locking up, breeding...etc' suggested that each time they want an animal, its hunted and caught in the wild, actually .

 

The way you word things is so sensational and ridiculous, it's no wonder that so many people don't actually take on board what some of you lot say or take you seriously. Most zoos nowadays are run to strict guidelines to prevent the stress of injury of the animals involved. This could be a similar argument to one we had a long time ago, regarding the treatment of livestock, where I actually posted up the government documentation proving it, to which you had no comeback.

The point about them having done this for years is to emphasise the point that they know what they are doing and have the best available science and animal handlers on the case. In the case of the lions, they attempted to find new owners for them, but to no avail. Had the new, younger male been allowed in to the enclosure with the other males etc, they would have been torn to shreds, JUST LIKE IN THE WILD.

 

What a stupid comparison. Do you honestly believe the animals in question were killed in some sick kind of game, with kids shouting and dancing around, being entertained? As I said before, your sensational wording just gives your point less weight.

 

I think I was fair in assuming what you would say, to be honest, considering you have mentioned before that even the transportation of animals is cruel in your eyes.

 

minimizing the births of more animals than the population can support or the zoo can care for

 

 

That sounds like either abortion, or preventing them from endulging in a natural practise of mating.

 

Yes, their natural habitat is one huge place. You could say that because we humans have the technology and ability to live in even the most atrocious places like Antarctica, it's stupid that we coop ourselves up in houses. Anyway, just because there is the option of a giant open space, it doesn't mean they cover every inch of it every day. Let's not forget that they can often sleep for up to 24 hours aswell. They aren't exactly the most lively of creatures.

 

Ok I will at least admit there maybe be a tad too much foliage there .

[ozleicester]

The part where you said 'catching, locking up, breeding...etc' suggested that each time they want an animal, its hunted and caught in the wild, actually .

 

See the word breeding there?

 

 

The way you word things is so sensational and ridiculous, it's no wonder that so many people don't actually take on board what some of you lot say or take you seriously.

 

I understand you dont like the words i use.. doesnt make them wrong, we can call it "euthanaisa, or put down" but that is just trying to soften it so people feel better about it, they are killed unnecessarily and without reason.

 

Most zoos nowadays are run to strict guidelines to prevent the stress of injury of the animals involved.

 

They are subject to guidelines, but, not to PREVENT stress and injury.. but to MINIMISE it... and even that is wrong... killing a healthy animal doesnt seem to even go close

 

This could be a similar argument to one we had a long time ago, regarding the treatment of livestock, where I actually posted up the government documentation proving it, to which you had no comeback.

 

I dont know wha you are referring to, i have endeavoured to answer every question asked of me in this tread.. direct me to the point you made and im happy to address it. (though i fail to believe that anyone can defend the feedlot/livestock industry.

 

The point about them having done this for years is to emphasise the point that they know what they are doing and have the best available science and animal handlers on the case. In the case of the lions, they attempted to find new owners for them, but to no avail. Had the new, younger male been allowed in to the enclosure with the other males etc, they would have been torn to shreds, JUST LIKE IN THE WILD.

 

No need for the new males, and as breeders of these animals, it is their RESPONSIBILITY to have a plan for the movement of unwanted animals... If they were so experienced and knowledgeable, they would have a plan for the animals they breed that extends beyond just killing them when they dont want them anymore

 

What a stupid comparison. Do you honestly believe the animals in question were killed in some sick kind of game, with kids shouting and dancing around, being entertained? As I said before, your sensational wording just gives your point less weight.

 

I didnt make any such comparison... the facts are, these animals were killed because the zoo, no longer wanted them as part of their exhibit, i can sugar coat the words and make it more palatable... but the facts dont change that... healthy animals, that were bred for human entertainment...have been killed because they dont want them any more

 

I think I was fair in assuming what you would say, to be honest, considering you have mentioned before that even the  add here transportation of animals is cruel in your eyes.

 

(ill add the word unnecessary)

 

 

That sounds like either abortion, or preventing them from endulging in a natural practise of mating.

 

Or sterilisation.. or... having a plan for dealing with the resultant offspring that extends beyond killing them when no longer needed

 

Yes, their natural habitat is one huge place. You could say that because we humans have the technology and ability to live in even the most atrocious places like Antarctica, it's stupid that we coop ourselves up in houses. Anyway, just because there is the option of a giant open space, it doesn't mean they cover every inch of it every day. Let's not forget that they can often sleep for up to 24 hours aswell. They aren't exactly the most lively of creatures.

 

You do realise that you have the CHOICE to live in the little house or the Antarctica... these animals have no choice... it s verrry different world. 

 

Ok I will at least admit there maybe be a tad too much foliage there .

 

 

sorry to have to respond in the style above, but it seems the easiest way to answer the questions and correct statements.

 

So... do you believe humans  have the right to breed and keep locked up any animal and then kill it when it is surplus to requirements?

[Jimothy]

Can't we put down ozleicester?

[Rincewind]

sorry to have to respond in the style above, but it seems the easiest way to answer the questions and correct statements.

 

So... do you believe humans  have the right to breed and keep locked up any animal and then kill it when it is surplus to requirements?

Or not breed them which would result in the same outcome - less of the animal species or even extinction if we let nature take its course. My carnivorous nature and love of bacon has meant the need to breed a pig or two in my lifetime so a little piglet or two will have lived. So I have done my bit in preserving the pig species for a while longer until the vegans rule the world when we will all have to eat lettuce and carrots depriving bunny rabbits of their natural source of nourishment.

 

[ozleicester]

Can't we put down ozleicester?

 

 No... because no matter how annoying, unpleasant, stupid, frustrating, or any other thing in the world ozleicester is...he is (as far as we know) a human being, and therefore he has the right to life, unlike any other animal in the world!

 

[Jimothy]

No... because no matter how annoying, unpleasant, stupid, frustrating, or any other thing in the world ozleicester is...he is (as far as we know) a human being, and therefore he has the right to life, unlike any other animal in the world!

See, you're getting the hang of it now!

[Manwell Pablo]

Im all for nature and more than understand its sometimes apparent cruelty. I also understand that nature kills lions off in the wild well before they are dying in zoos, but life is about more than avoiding death

 

Lions in nature will often travel in excess of 15 kilometres a day.. but we stick them in a 50 square metre cage so that snot nosed little johnies can wander up, stare at them for 2 minutes before complaining that they arent doing anything and walk off looking for the next bit of "entertainment".

 

They are not even close to replicating  (or even trying to replicate) the natural environment, they are trying to find the easiest way to make money from over indulged humans and if that means half a dozen animals are surplus to requirements then fvck it lets just kill em off and get some new ones.

 

Catching, locking up, breeding and then killing wild, innocent animals is not nature...and more importantly is UNNECESSARY. 

 

edit, just thought id have a look at the Copenhagen zoo to see how much "natural environment" they dedicate to these creatures. Have a look at the map attached... the lions get about half the amount of space that is put aside for the humans to sit around and eat in.. and look at them 

 

http://uk.zoo.dk/VisitZoo/~/media/Files/Map%20English%203013.ashx

 

  Statement by Association of Zoos and Aquariums Regarding the Euthanasia of Giraffe at the Copenhagen Zoo  

 

Locking a cat up in a confined space when it should be allowed to roam free and do what it wants, for one owns pleasure and entertainment?

 

That scenario vaguely familiar to you?

[Babylon]

Locking a cat up in a confined space when it should be allowed to roam free and do what it wants, for one owns pleasure and entertainment?

 

That scenario vaguely familiar to you?

[ozleicester]

The good Ol Merc

 

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Factory-farms-contributing-climate-change/story-20988732-detail/story.html

[ozleicester]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFtJeKojFfI

[ozleicester]

http://blog.peta.org.uk/2014/05/everton-goalkeeper-tim-howard-defends-animals-wanted-for-fur/

 

[Harry - LCFC]

Heard some buzzing in my lounge earlier and thought it could be some faulty electrics so investigated the issue. Turned out that a spider had caught a fly in its web down the back of my tv stand. The spider was busy wrapping the fly in web presumably in preparation for eating it. The fly was desperately trying to escape, buzzing its little wings off, and was obviously in serious pain.

What's the morally correct thing to do in such a situation? Rescue the fly? Put the fly out of its misery? Kill the spider? Leave them be?

 

I broke up a duck fight once. One of the males was trying to bite one of the females on the head so I put my foot between them and flicked the nasty aggressor away. I felt very righteous afterwards.

 

EDIT: Woops! Didn't realise that post was a year old. Still, hope you enjoyed my little anecdote!

[Darkon84]

Sorry, I'm not trying to kick up an argument or anything, but I saw this and it made me chuckle and think of this thread.

 

 

[Manwell Pablo]

Sorry, I'm not trying to kick up an argument or anything, but I saw this and it made me chuckle and think of this thread.

 

 

 

Is a cat a must have pet for a Vegan or something?

[MooseBreath]

Is a cat a must have pet for a Vegan or something?

Cats are very popular pets among gay men. Hence they're also popular among vegetarian men.

[sphericalfox]

Is a cat a must have pet for a Vegan or something?

 

They taste like broccoli apparently. 

[Jimothy]

Cats are very popular pets among gay men. Hence they're also popular among vegetarian men.

I'm neither gay nor veggie/vegan, which is probably why my cat a little fat ****er rather than some weak skinny loser like that one.

[Mark_w]

Cats are very popular pets among gay men. Hence they're also popular among vegetarian men.