Woolwich

[Fox92]

http://www.itv.com/news/story/2013-05-22/woolwich-police-incident/

 

That guy is scum, less than that.

 

Why do they do this and then say 'in our Country'... One, they arn't even in their own country, and two, I don't believe English people behead people in the streets of his homeland.

[Harry - LCFC]

I don't accept rationalizing doing nothing in the face of evil happening in front of my face..Im not built that way. there was more than enough blokes there on the scene to have taken these wankers on and stopped them. 

 

It's very hard to approach a man wielding a weapon.

 

You fear for your own safety, it's a very natural reaction. I think you're being extremely unfair.

[johnny the fox]

It's very hard to approach a man wielding a weapon.

 

You fear for your own safety, it's a very natural reaction. I think you're being extremely unfair.

 

 would you be saying that to me if it was your father/son/ brother, laying there in the road?

[leicsmac]

I do agree, but we don't do we?

 

The government seems to do nothing about it, apart from give them a 'strong talking to' before putting them in prison (which is luxary anyway with what they get).

 

I'm glad that we don't torture or maim those who commit even the most heinous of crimes on our soil. That alone shows we are better than them. 

 

In a case like this, it would be so easy to want to deliver a bucketful of darkness to those nutjobs, but a State that sanctions that is no better than any tinpot dictatorship around the world.

 

Of course, as I said earlier - I'm not averse to the idea of the State locking them up with a beefy fella who enjoys a bit of nighttime spooning, though. It's all about degrees.

[Dylan]

Absolutely disgusting, hope the ***** get beat up everyday in prison.  As someone said, the worrying thing was after he did it, he seemed so calm to TV cameras as if he'd done something completely normal, it shocks me how someone can do that to another.

 

I don't understand how thick these people can be too, do they really believe what they're doing is GOOD for their supposed religion (even though they clearly aren't proper followers of the faith).  

[Harry - LCFC]

 would you be saying that to me if it was your father/son/ brother, laying there in the road?

 

After a period of time to recover I think I'd be able to accept why people chose not to get involved. You really have to be a certain type of person to take someone on unarmed, it isn't the sort of thing I'd encourage most people to do. Unless you know what you're doing I wouldn't blame an individual for putting their safety first.

 

I'll admit right now that my first reaction would be to run away. I don't view myself as cowardly I just believe it's a natural reaction.

[Kitchandro]

We do what they do, we become them. That's exactly what the extreme elements on all sides want. We have to be better. It's difficult, but we must.

 

The extremists want to kill us, I don't think they want us to torture them.

 

It's a dog eat dog world, I don't agree with not doing things because you don't want to be like them.

 

How would we become them? Torturing senseless murderers of innocent people is not the same as senselessly murdering an innoceent person.

 

It makes no difference to me whether they are tortured or not, but that's not good reasoning not to torture them.

[leicsmac]

 would you be saying that to me if it was your father/son/ brother, laying there in the road?

 

Oh yeah, if that happened I'd want to kill them. I'd want to kill them in the most inventive, depraved way possible, over as much time as possible, causing as much agony as possible. That's human nature.

 

But wanting would be as far as it went. I can't imagine what it would be like to take a life, even if it were to right a grievous wrong like this. I think it would be something that would stay with you, no matter how justified you felt in doing it at the time. 

[Larry_LCFC]

"I apologize that women had to witness this today, but in our land, our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your government, they dont care about you"

 

What a cvnt. Local london accent. Clearly home grown.

[Kitchandro]

I'm glad that we don't torture or maim those who commit even the most heinous of crimes on our soil. That alone shows we are better than them. 

 

In a case like this, it would be so easy to want to deliver a bucketful of darkness to those nutjobs, but a State that sanctions that is no better than any tinpot dictatorship around the world.

 

Of course, as I said earlier - I'm not averse to the idea of the State locking them up with a beefy fella who enjoys a bit of nighttime spooning, though. It's all about degrees.

 

So you don't mind them being tortured as long as the state can wash their hands of responsibility?

 

I'm not usually a torture them/give them the death penalty kind of guy, but you can't treat these people the same as all criminals. They don't do things just because they're angry at an individual, or because they fear for safety, or because they are desperate. They are brainwashed and barely capable of human thinking.

 

Which is why I don't get why people say killing them is what they want, because they want to be martyrs. That only makes sense if you actually believe what they believe. If they're dead, what does it matter what they wanted or believed when they were alive?

[Fez of Mahrez]

I'm astonished anyone remained close enough to video that, given what had clearly happened moments before. He's still holding a weapon too. I can't understand that at all.

[Harry - LCFC]

I don't really understand what he means by that. The UK is one of the safest countries in the world and we have a better government than the majority of states that exist today. He strikes me as someone who's been led to believe things that aren't true.

[johnny the fox]

Oh yeah, if that happened I'd want to kill them. I'd want to kill them in the most inventive, depraved way possible, over as much time as possible, causing as much agony as possible. That's human nature.

 

But wanting would be as far as it went. I can't imagine what it would be like to take a life, even if it were to right a grievous wrong like this. I think it would be something that would stay with you, no matter how justified you felt in doing it at the time. 

what would really stay with me, would be living with myself knowing I could of done something and did nothing. for me that would be too much to bare. but thats me. some things in life are worse than the fear of being harmed or death. The damage this is going to do to the muslim community is incalculable .. 

[StanSP]

I'm astonished anyone remained close enough to video that, given what had clearly happened moments before. He's still holding a weapon too. I can't understand that at all.

 

Same. He could have lashed out at anyone and they're just standing there. And he calmly talks to someone else across the road! Baffles me, that.

[leicsmac]

The extremists want to kill us, I don't think they want us to torture them.

 

It's a dog eat dog world, I don't agree with not doing things because you don't want to be like them.

 

How would we become them? Torturing senseless murderers of innocent people is not the same as senselessly murdering an innoceent person.

 

It makes no difference to me whether they are tortured or not, but that's not good reasoning not to torture them.

 

The problem is that it leads to a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? Where does torture become justified?. And more importantly - who justifies and chooses it? 

 

You're right in that torturing a non-reticent murderer and murdering an innocent person are not equivalent, but in this case it would merely be applying pain as a measure of revenge for the pain that person had given. There wouldn't be any more point to it than to get a twisted satisfaction from levelling the playing field, as it were. 

 

I choose to believe a truly civilised society would be above acting in that fashion to that degree, regardless of how twisted the person was who committed the crime.

[AoWW]

I'm astonished anyone remained close enough to video that, given what had clearly happened moments before. He's still holding a weapon too. I can't understand that at all.

 

This, I sure as hell wouldn't be hanging around watching what was going on.  

[Kitchandro]

I don't really understand what he means by that. The UK is one of the safest countries in the world and we have a better government than the majority of states that exist today. He strikes me as someone who's been led to believe things that aren't true.

 

You think?!

[MikeyT]

I'm astonished anyone remained close enough to video that, given what had clearly happened moments before. He's still holding a weapon too. I can't understand that at all.

Thought exactly the same thing. The camera guy had balls of steel or there were Police very close!

[Fez of Mahrez]

This is far from the main point but I find it a bit disconcerting that we can now see footage of a murderer attempting to justify his actions just moments after it took place, before the police have even arrived. This seems like new territory for the media.

[Guesty]

I'm astonished anyone remained close enough to video that, given what had clearly happened moments before. He's still holding a weapon too. I can't understand that at all.

 

Probably in shock; a rabbit in headlights sort of thing. I don't know that anyone could possibly know how they'd react unless they were there. But I see what you're saying.

 

Those people who went up the body with that nutter around and looked like they were trying to protect him deserve a lot of respect.

[leicsmac]

So you don't mind them being tortured as long as the state can wash their hands of responsibility?

 

I'm not usually a torture them/give them the death penalty kind of guy, but you can't treat these people the same as all criminals. They don't do things just because they're angry at an individual, or because they fear for safety, or because they are desperate. They are brainwashed and barely capable of human thinking.

 

Which is why I don't get why people say killing them is what they want, because they want to be martyrs. That only makes sense if you actually believe what they believe. If they're dead, what does it matter what they wanted or believed when they were alive?

 

As I mentioned before, it's about degrees. Getting taken up the arse in jail (when there's a possibility, no matter how slim, that it might not happen) and being cut on/electrocuted/dogs nibbling at genitalia (for certain) are not the same.

 

I agree with you that they have been brainwashed - so you should try to break the brainwashing. Use psychological techniques to do so - strong psychological conditioning. I'm no expert, but I'm sure it's possible. And if it's not - then you've lost nothing but some time.

 

Edit: This is such a thorny issue. It's a whole part of the death penalty debate, which I am actually for in VERY specific cases. 

[Kitchandro]

The problem is that it leads to a slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? Where does torture become justified?. And more importantly - who justifies and chooses it? 

 

You're right in that torturing a non-reticent murderer and murdering an innocent person are not equivalent, but in this case it would merely be applying pain as a measure of revenge for the pain that person had given. There wouldn't be any more point to it than to get a twisted satisfaction from levelling the playing field, as it were. 

 

I choose to believe a truly civilised society would be above acting in that fashion to that degree, regardless of how twisted the person was who committed the crime.

 

You're right, there wouldn't be much point to it, unless you were emotionally close with the victim.

 

Like I said, it doesn't really make any difference to me, nor do I think you can really justify the government doing it as such.

 

On the other hand, I think we'd all be lying if we said we think it would actually be wrong to torture people like that. I certainly would not feel sorry for them, not so much because of the brutality of the crime, but the motives behind it.

 

I don't think that makes me an extremist or a psycopath.

[leicsmac]

what would really stay with me, would be living with myself knowing I could of done something and did nothing. for me that would be too much to bare. but thats me. some things in life are worse than the fear of being harmed or death. The damage this is going to do to the muslim community is incalculable .. 

 

Oh yeah, the will to act in that situation. I'd like to think I would act, but until (whatever diety is up there forbid) I was in that situation I would never know. 

 

One things for sure though - I would only do enough to render that person unable to fight back until they could be dealt with by the police.

[leicsmac]

You're right, there wouldn't be much point to it, unless you were emotionally close with the victim.

 

Like I said, it doesn't really make any difference to me, nor do I think you can really justify the government doing it as such.

 

On the other hand, I think we'd all be lying if we said we think it would actually be wrong to torture people like that. I certainly would not feel sorry for them, not so much because of the brutality of the crime, but the motives behind it.

 

I don't think that makes me an extremist or a psycopath.

 

Absolutely right. It doesn't make you an extremist in any way. Most people would think that restoring the balance of terror by delivering pain and fear to someone like this would be the right thing to do. 

 

But it's not acting on those impulses that stands us aside from the truly evil scum like this.

[Deucalion]

"I apologize that women had to witness this today, but in our land, our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your government, they dont care about you"

 

 

The fact is, British soldiers have been an occupying force in some parts of the world for a while.  Soldiers while abroad can sometimes act in unfortunate ways.  Furthermore, in some parts of the world, death can rain down from above without warning, controlled by a distant pilot in Nevada, or more recently, Cambridgeshire.

 

The fact that some people are angry about this is not surprising.  Does anybody in the UK today question the actions of the French Resistance for instance?  It is all a matter of perspective.

 

Is there any justice in a family in Pakistan being wiped out by missiles fired from a drone?  Clearly not.

 

Is there any justice in some poor lad being beheaded in the street due to his choice of t-shirt?  Nope.

 

However, I don't personally think it hurts to try to understand why these things happen.