Kitchandro Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 As I mentioned before, it's about degrees. Getting taken up the arse in jail (when there's a possibility, no matter how slim, that it might not happen) and being cut on/electrocuted/dogs nibbling at genitalia (for certain) are not the same. I agree with you that they have been brainwashed - so you should try to break the brainwashing. Use psychological techniques to do so - strong psychological conditioning. I'm no expert, but I'm sure it's possible. And if it's not - then you've lost nothing but some time. Edit: This is such a thorny issue. It's a whole part of the death penalty debate, which I am actually for in VERY specific cases. I could be wrong but I couldn't imagine people like that ever being changed. If you are so sure and commited to something there is no good reason why you should stop believing in it, especially if there's nothing to gain from doing so. I'm not sure what you can really do with criminals like this in this country, other than lock them up forever. We're not willing to do the things to prisoners that certain other countries are, rightly or wrongly. Obviously there is a difference between actually torturing someone and putting them in a position where they might get raped or the shit kicked out of them etc, but the intentions still come from a similar place. If the state is truly being objective and by the book, then they cannot do either.
Bert Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 Shocked, saddened. You can't even really say things about this as someone will claim that you're being racist.
Tielemans63 Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 This is far from the main point but I find it a bit disconcerting that we can now see footage of a murderer attempting to justify his actions just moments after it took place, before the police have even arrived. This seems like new territory for the media.Agree completely with this. I was saying the very same to my missus. To see the body fairly graphically, lying prone on the ground and then the murderer still holding his blood-stained weapons is massively shocking. Like you say, that's new territory especially as we're nowhere near post-watershed either.This sets a disturbing precedent. There'll be 10 and 11 year old kids watching this. Depresses me that many peoples first reaction is to film the goings on- i'll never understand that.
Fox92 Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 Shocked, saddened. You can't even really say things about this as someone will claim that you're being racist. Exactly what I put earlier. It shouldn't be like that, sadly it is though.
leicsmac Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 I could be wrong but I couldn't imagine people like that ever being changed. If you are so sure and commited to something there is no good reason why you should stop believing in it, especially if there's nothing to gain from doing so. I'm not sure what you can really do with criminals like this in this country, other than lock them up forever. We're not willing to do the things to prisoners that certain other countries are, rightly or wrongly. Obviously there is a difference between actually torturing someone and putting them in a position where they might get raped or the shit kicked out of them etc, but the intentions still come from a similar place. If the state is truly being objective and by the book, then they cannot do either. Yeah, that's about right. And in the UK we do indeed do neither. My view about sticking them in general population is purely my view. I'd like it to happen, but that doesn't mean that it should.
Tom17LCFC Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 Not sure if it's been posted but... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EROXP8JDG9M
Larry_LCFC Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 "I apologize that women had to witness this today, but in our land, our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your government, they dont care about you" The fact is, British soldiers have been an occupying force in some parts of the world for a while. Soldiers while abroad can sometimes act in unfortunate ways. Furthermore, in some parts of the world, death can rain down from above without warning, controlled by a distant pilot in Nevada, or more recently, Cambridgeshire. The fact that some people are angry about this is not surprising. Does anybody in the UK today question the actions of the French Resistance for instance? It is all a matter of perspective. Is there any justice in a family in Pakistan being wiped out by missiles fired from a drone? Clearly not. Is there any justice in some poor lad being beheaded in the street due to his choice of t-shirt? Nope. However, I don't personally think it hurts to try to understand why these things happen. Im not quite sure what to make of your post. I dont understand what unfortunate and regrettable acts of war have to do with a cowardly and disturbing terrorist attack in a peaceful country. They dont even compare
Vardinhio Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 It is interesting that we act very different to terrorism at home and abroad. Well done to the MPS who took these people in alive when clearly they didn't want to be.
Trav Le Bleu Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 How can making some sensible comment on the situation of the world where people often do terrible things in the name of religion cause a fear of being labelled racist? You'll only get labelled a racist by saying something racist.
Samilktray Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 Exactly what I put earlier. It shouldn't be like that, sadly it is though.Change the record.
Harry - LCFC Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 Is there any justice in some poor lad being beheaded in the street due to his choice of t-shirt? Nope. Was that the reason for this attack? If so does anyone know what t-shirt he was wearing? I don't really know the motivation behind this attack yet.
johnny the fox Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 Oh yeah, the will to act in that situation. I'd like to think I would act, but until (whatever diety is up there forbid) I was in that situation I would never know. One things for sure though - I would only do enough to render that person unable to fight back until they could be dealt with by the police. we are all gonna die fact, its not how you die its how you live that counts. terrorists only win if people allow themselves to be terrorised by this scum, they were not special monsters, they were just two men. This happened near a primary school, I wonder if they had started to attack little kids, if the men watching would of stood by and watched that as well? one thing is for sure the women wouldn't of..
Deucalion Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 Im not quite sure what to make of your post. I dont understand what unfortunate and regrettable acts of war have to do with a cowardly and disturbing terrorist attack in a peaceful country. They dont even compare Well, this 'peaceful country' has done a fair few things to annoy people in Muslim countries. It only appears peaceful because we live here and quite rightly, there are rules and laws to protect our own citizens. The view of the UK from many other countries is quite different. Hence, this is all a matter of perspective. The UK may have acted in such a way abroad to make people angry enough to want to attack people who are superficially similar to those committing the violent acts. People seem surprised that these things happen, when actually they are entirely predictable. If some people in this country are able to objectify all Muslims as responsible for acts like today, then is it not reasonable that people from other countries might objectify all people from the UK as responsible for violent acts committed by our military? But, to ensure there is one point which can't be misunderstood, what a terrible end for that poor lad and my thoughts are with his family.
MooseBreath Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 You'd think they'd at least have some kind of coherent, strong reason for doing it. That guy barely seems to know what he is even talking about. Home grown black, hitting out in frustration at a world he neither understands nor has the ability to succeed in, and then blaming it on the actions of others. Disgusting, but in todays 'blame someone else' culture, hardly a surprise that it would eventually come to this.
Deucalion Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 Was that the reason for this attack? If so does anyone know what t-shirt he was wearing? I don't really know the motivation behind this attack yet. His 'Help for Heroes' t-shirt probably identified him with British soldiers in the minds of the attackers.
leicsmac Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 "I apologize that women had to witness this today, but in our land, our women have to see the same. You people will never be safe. Remove your government, they dont care about you" The fact is, British soldiers have been an occupying force in some parts of the world for a while. Soldiers while abroad can sometimes act in unfortunate ways. Furthermore, in some parts of the world, death can rain down from above without warning, controlled by a distant pilot in Nevada, or more recently, Cambridgeshire. The fact that some people are angry about this is not surprising. Does anybody in the UK today question the actions of the French Resistance for instance? It is all a matter of perspective. Is there any justice in a family in Pakistan being wiped out by missiles fired from a drone? Clearly not. Is there any justice in some poor lad being beheaded in the street due to his choice of t-shirt? Nope. However, I don't personally think it hurts to try to understand why these things happen. Sorry Deu, but I've got to disagree with you here. I think method and intent with respect to killing matters hugely. I know dead is dead, but to look a person dead in the eye with utter certainty as you behead them speaks for me of a far greater level of sociopathy than pushing a button that may or may not kill innocent civilians. I don't think you can give them equivalence, even though our presence in Afghanistan is something I am opposed to. You'd think they'd at least have some kind of coherent, strong reason for doing it. That guy barely seems to know what he is even talking about. Home grown black, hitting out in frustration at a world he neither understands nor has the ability to succeed in, and then blaming it on the actions of others. Disgusting, but in todays 'blame someone else' culture, hardly a surprise that it would eventually come to this. It's all to do with the indoctrination he's been subjected to. I don't think it's really a reflection on todays culture - ideological nutjobs brainwashed in this way have been with us for a very long time. They just change their words with the times, that's all.
leicsmac Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 Well, this 'peaceful country' has done a fair few things to annoy people in Muslim countries. It only appears peaceful because we live here and quite rightly, there are rules and laws to protect our own citizens. The view of the UK from many other countries is quite different. Hence, this is all a matter of perspective. The UK may have acted in such a way abroad to make people angry enough to want to attack people who are superficially similar to those committing the violent acts. People seem surprised that these things happen, when actually they are entirely predictable. If some people in this country are able to objectify all Muslims as responsible for acts like today, then is it not reasonable that people from other countries might objectify all people from the UK as responsible for violent acts committed by our military? But, to ensure there is one point which can't be misunderstood, what a terrible end for that poor lad and my thoughts are with his family. And this is why generalisation is so dangerous from both sides.
brockmyster Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 Not sure if it's been posted but... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=EROXP8JDG9M He says our women have to see it, well one he sounds British born and two why repeat the actions you are dead set against, ****ing absolute cvnt of a person waste of oxygen
Deucalion Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 Sorry Deu, but I've got to disagree with you here. I think method and intent with respect to killing matters hugely. I know dead is dead, but to look a person dead in the eye with utter certainty as you behead them speaks for me of a far greater level of sociopathy than pushing a button that may or may not kill innocent civilians. I don't think you can give them equivalence, even though our presence in Afghanistan is something I am opposed to. It's all to do with the indoctrination he's been subjected to. I don't think it's really a reflection on todays culture - ideological nutjobs brainwashed in this way have been with us for a very long time. They just change their words with the times, that's all. For me, neither the lad walking down the street nor a family caught up in a drone attack are combatants, so both are pretty heinous acts. Neither deserve to die the way they do. But personally, I do find it particularly cowardly to kill someone from 1000s of miles away, with no chance of your enemy being able to kill you. And this is why generalisation is so dangerous from both sides. Couldn't agree more.
lavrentis Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 EDL on their way to Woolwich. Like or hate them they are at least taking action with a protest. This story is just so shocking, this should not be happening on any street in our country.
Munshi Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4938197/shooting-in-woolwich-london.html The sun say he said " We swear by almighty allah" But I cant hear him saying that after about watching it 3 times. A shame that probably most the muslims will be blamed for this, even thought the guy in the video doesnt look muslim.
purpleronnie Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 EDL on their way to Woolwich. Like or hate them they are at least taking action with a protest. This story is just so shocking, this should not be happening on any street in our country. Protest what? And what shouldnt be happening? A murder? What about all the other murders? Not as serious because religion wasnt a motive?
Webbo Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/4938197/shooting-in-woolwich-london.html The sun say he said " We swear by almighty allah" But I cant hear him saying that after about watching it 3 times. Just because you can't hear it it doesn't mean he didn't say it.
StanSP Posted 22 May 2013 Posted 22 May 2013 I'm not gonna call you racist if you say non-racist stuff. I've not called anyone racist in this thread, either.
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