Uncle Albert Posted 2 October 2013 Posted 2 October 2013 Me and friends have been discussing recently what makes a manager a great manager. Basically we were discussing David Moyes and a friend said he's a great manager, when challenged on why is he a great manager, the lad came out with like many others have said over the years, because of his time at Everton, with no money and what not.. So FoxesTalkers, does that make you a great manager or just a good manager at a small club? I personally wouldn't class Moyes or similar managers as greats, obviously Moyes can go on to be one but not now he isn't. Great managers are managers who win trophies, that's surely what you're remembered for, not 6th place in the Premier League or an FA Cup Final..
davieG Posted 2 October 2013 Posted 2 October 2013 It's a bit relative as i'm sure there's many a club that have won very little in terms of trophies but have had 'great manager's in the eyes of the fans. Many LCFC fans considered Bloomfield to be a great manager and he won nothing.
Captain... Posted 2 October 2013 Posted 2 October 2013 Great managers consistently overachieve in terms of results with the players they have, and can only be classed as great if they have done it for more than one club. This is why Redknapp is not a great manager, not even a good manager, he never really achieved any more than expected anywhere, with the money and players he had at his disposal, he should have done much better at Spurs. Moyes is not looking that great, not only because of the start he's made at United, but also how Everton have coped without him, did a great job at Everton, but it was not all down to him, clubs are becoming less and less dependent on the manager.
Guest MattP Posted 2 October 2013 Posted 2 October 2013 Significantly over achieving with what you have at your disposal. Moyes was great at Everton considering how they mixed it with the top six considering the budget they have. A Man Utd he will judged differently. This is why I can't managers like Redknapp and Benitez (except his spell at Valencia) as "great" as whilst winning a couple of cups looks impressive, with the cash at their disposal they should have been challenging every year for Championships.
Dan Posted 2 October 2013 Posted 2 October 2013 I'd argue the same for Mourinho as whilst he's done well, he's often joined the best placed club for success in each country he's worked at. Consistent over-achievement, consistent development of players and a few trophies are what I'd call a 'great' manager. It's largely about how long you sustain your best spells for.
Uncle Albert Posted 2 October 2013 Author Posted 2 October 2013 In 20 years time you're going to remember Benitez and Mourinho simply because they have won the major trophies with major clubs, you won't remember a manager who's kept a Club in the Premier League for a number of years, it's a fine line on being a good manager and a great manager.
ScouseFox Posted 2 October 2013 Posted 2 October 2013 I'd argue the same for Mourinho as whilst he's done well, he's often joined the best placed club for success in each country he's worked at. Consistent over-achievement, consistent development of players and a few trophies are what I'd call a 'great' manager. It's largely about how long you sustain your best spells for. Woah. Porto winning the Champions League?! Inter ruining Barca and then winning the Champions League?! Real winning the League despite Barca being "the best team ever"?!
Finnegan Posted 2 October 2013 Posted 2 October 2013 Mourinho will never be remembered as special or great. He's just a good manager doing okay at top clubs. You can be a great at a big club, Ferguson was phenomenal at consistently revitalizing and rebuilding United, Shankly and Paisley are remembered similarly. But Mourinho just jumps ship if it gets a bit challenging.
Finnegan Posted 2 October 2013 Posted 2 October 2013 Woah. Porto winning the Champions League?! Inter ruining Barca and then winning the Champions League?! Real winning the League despite Barca being "the best team ever"?! Yes, Porto won the Champions League. Great. A short cup competition, albeit against top sides. Need I remind you that Greece won the European Championships? How many people could tell you who managed them without Google? A few students of the sport, likely, but in the wider public? And how many will remember in another ten years' I tell you what, it was a much bigger achievement than winning the CL with Porto. And I'm sorry but Inter and Real were top, top quality sides. Behave yourself. Look, nobody's calling him crap but he wouldn't have any of the hype about him if he wasn't a colorfully arrogant character.
Uncle Albert Posted 2 October 2013 Author Posted 2 October 2013 Mourinho is a great manager. A nobhead but a great manager.
Guest MattP Posted 2 October 2013 Posted 2 October 2013 Yes, Porto won the Champions League. Great. A short cup competition, albeit against top sides. Need I remind you that Greece won the European Championships? How many people could tell you who managed them without Google? A few students of the sport, likely, but in the wider public? And how many will remember in another ten years' I tell you what, it was a much bigger achievement than winning the CL with Porto. And I'm sorry but Inter and Real were top, top quality sides. Behave yourself. Look, nobody's calling him crap but he wouldn't have any of the hype about him if he wasn't a colorfully arrogant character. Otto Genuine great - Cloughie - taking two sides of the stature of Forest and Derby to the heightts he did and what he did with them. Wenger - Not only built a side winning trophies but completely revamped a football club for modern times and has ensured they will be a force for years to come, took over midtable with a 35,000 ground, he'll leave them with a 75,000 stadium built on his brilliance, a young side capable of challenging for all the top trophies and money in the bank account in a league 3 billion in debt. That's beyond even what "great managers" can do.
Corky Posted 2 October 2013 Posted 2 October 2013 Didn't Cloughie get both Derby and Forest promoted before winning the league with them? Amazing if he did (despite the dislike for the clubs).
Guest MattP Posted 2 October 2013 Posted 2 October 2013 Didn't Cloughie get both Derby and Forest promoted before winning the league with them? Amazing if he did (despite the dislike for the clubs). Yep, incredible isn't it? I'm not a huge fan of the guy but he genius is undisputed. Same amount of European Cups as Ferguson and he only managed Forest and Derby for any length of time.
Uncle Albert Posted 2 October 2013 Author Posted 2 October 2013 Still amazing that Bob Paisley is the only manager to win 3 European Cups in 11 years!
ScouseFox Posted 2 October 2013 Posted 2 October 2013 If it was that easy to win the Champions League with Porto or topple Barcelona then how come only Mourinho has done it in recent times? Let's not forget he won the Uefa Cup with Porto one year then the Champions League the next. Let's not be silly now, look at what he's won. Top clubs or not top clubs you've still got to win them. Look at Inter since he left, they can't even qualify for the CL let alone beat Chelsea, Barca and Bayern Munich on the way to winning the thing. He's only ever lost 2 home league games in his managerial career. Admittedly he seems to have completely lost the plot since returning to Chelsea . But we'll see what happens. I'd say he was definitely a great manager because not only has he been there and done it, he's been there and done it in most major leagues with 4 or 5 different clubs.
Uncle Albert Posted 2 October 2013 Author Posted 2 October 2013 Leicester fans will surely class Martin O'Neill as a great manager because of promotion and League Cup success, does that make him a great manager or a great Leicester City manager? Surely the latter. Great managers are managers who dominate a League, like Guardiola did, Ferguson did, like Wenger once did and so did Mourinho in his first Chelsea period. They're also managers who go from club to club and win major trophies, Ancelotti, Benitez, Mourinho and I'm sure Guardiola will do that again this season with Bayern.
Guest MattP Posted 2 October 2013 Posted 2 October 2013 Leicester fans will surely class Martin O'Neill as a great manager because of promotion and League Cup success, does that make him a great manager or a great Leicester City manager? Surely the latter. Great managers are managers who dominate a League, like Guardiola did, Ferguson did, like Wenger once did and so did Mourinho in his first Chelsea period. They're also managers who go from club to club and win major trophies, Ancelotti, Benitez, Mourinho and I'm sure Guardiola will do that again this season with Bayern. Agree with that. MON was fairly average in most other jobs, McLeish out-trophied him in Scotland, Villa was ok for a while before downhill and Sunderland was a shocker.
Kitchandro Posted 2 October 2013 Posted 2 October 2013 Everton aren't a small club, and I was never wowed at the job Moyes did there. He did a good job but despite what he spent he always had some decent players, and he never won anything. He's certainly not a great manager in my eyes. I don't agree at all that O'Neill was average everywhere else. Both Celtic and Villa were in the doldrums before he went there; Celtic won the treble in his first season and the title another 2 times (so 3 in 5 years, more titles than Rangers in that time then) and Villa went from a bottom 5 side to a top 6 side and got to Wembley twice. That's more than ok cos they've been relegation battlers before and since, Sunderland was his first blip since he joined us, having previously guided Wycombe to 2 successive promotions. Before then I'd definitely have classed him among the best managers in Britain. At least he's won trophies, whereas Moyes hasn't. And that is what you compete for essentially. as for the term 'great', well it's pretty vague. Being described as a great manager isn't the same as being an all-time great.
Miquel The Work Geordie Posted 2 October 2013 Posted 2 October 2013 I'd argue the same for Mourinho as whilst he's done well, he's often joined the best placed club for success in each country he's worked at. Consistent over-achievement, consistent development of players and a few trophies are what I'd call a 'great' manager. It's largely about how long you sustain your best spells for. I think Mourinho is a great, his Chelsea side were PL record breakers and he never lost a league game at home in his first spell, winning the CL with Porto in the era he did was no cakewalk, Inter too - when they were the best of a pretty weak Serie A, he won them the Champions League. I'd argue he's over achieved at a lot of the clubs he's been at, despite the profile and resources of each of the bigger outfits he's managed.
Bobby Hundreds Posted 2 October 2013 Posted 2 October 2013 Mourinho is definitely a great manager. I would like to see Wenger manage a really big club (e.g. Real), to see what he's really made of. Although Arsenal are in great shape financially and have had a good start to the season they have certainly under achieved in the last 8-9 years.
Guest MattP Posted 2 October 2013 Posted 2 October 2013 Mourinho is definitely a great manager. I would like to see Wenger manage a really big club (e.g. Real), to see what he's really made of. Although Arsenal are in great shape financially and have had a good start to the season they have certainly under achieved in the last 8-9 years. Think so? I think they have overachieved considering to pay for a 600million stadium they have had to turn in a profit on transfer and finish in the top 4 over the time. Even with Harry blowing 200million to try and topple them. I realise that doesn't put trophies in the cabinet, but it certainly will for the next 8-9 years.
Bert Posted 2 October 2013 Posted 2 October 2013 In my era, there's been 3 great managers. Ferguson, Wenger and Guardiola. It's all going to boil down to people's opinions and what they see as great.
Bobby Hundreds Posted 2 October 2013 Posted 2 October 2013 Arsenal have been spending £110-£140 million pound on wages since their trophyless spell began, so we must be approaching over the £1 billion mark now. Some years they looked like they could challenge only to crumble when the pressures on, sometimes they haven't even come close to challenging. I think Wenger gets far too much credit for helping them build a new stadium, something that would've happened without him (what with the sale of the Highbury land and the £1200 season tickets to help finance it). He bought and sold well in the first half of his Arsenal career but has had a bit of a mare this second half, with fourth place their object of success which I think they'll find difficult to move on from. He should've gone to Real when he had the chance.
Mark_w Posted 2 October 2013 Posted 2 October 2013 In my era, there's been 3 great managers. Ferguson, Wenger and Guardiola. It's all going to boil down to people's opinions and what they see as great. I'd say that Mourinho is great, but I'm not sure I'd class Guardiola as great, certainly don't think he's at the same level as Ferguson or Mourinho.
Bert Posted 2 October 2013 Posted 2 October 2013 I'd say that Mourinho is great, but I'm not sure I'd class Guardiola as great, certainly don't think he's at the same level as Ferguson or Mourinho.Fair enough, but at the end of their careers Guardiola will have been more successful than Mourinho I think.
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