Enoch Powell - The Great Betrayal

[bovril]

I think people continually mistake blaming social and economic problems  on uncontrolled immigration to mean blaming immigrants individually.

 

Immigrants as individuals can be good or bad. Immigration can be good or bad .

 

What we've witnessed is a very bad immigration policy for the lower classes , or a very good one for those that want a large pool of cheap labour .

 

Just my opinion though. 

 

I completely agree with you. However, not everyone discusses the issue in such a rational way. The scapegoating and scaremongering is disturbing and it's happening everywhere, not only the UK. It appeals to the worst instincts in people and it's not a very nice direction to be going in.

[Zingari]

I completely agree with you. However, not everyone discusses the issue in such a rational way. The scapegoating and scaremongering is disturbing and it's happening everywhere, not only the UK. It appeals to the worst instincts in people and it's not a very nice direction to be going in.

Yes indeed , that's the real problem . No serious discussion regarding immigration policy can ever seem to be held  without actual racist remarks, or accusations of racism  continually muddying the waters.

 

It just seems to have become a taboo subject (imo), and any rationality seems virtually impossible in this climate of fear . 

[Rincewind]

Sometimes we can be last port of call for social immigrants. germany, France etc get the doctors scientists before us so the more we stop the more of the dregs we get.

 

I hope that doesn't sound bad but if we discourage the immigrants from entering or make it harder for the ones needed they will go elsewhere.

I don't blame anyone for wanting to better themselves but so many hear stories about how great things are here only to find out they are only  slightly better off.

[MooseBreath]

"dregs"

- Ken, November 2013

[Strokes]

Sometimes we can be last port of call for social immigrants. germany, France etc get the doctors scientists before us so the more we stop the more of the dregs we get.

I hope that doesn't sound bad but if we discourage the immigrants from entering or make it harder for the ones needed they will go elsewhere.

I don't blame anyone for wanting to better themselves but so many hear stories about how great things are here only to find out they are only slightly better off.

:o

[Guest MattP]

Sometimes we can be last port of call for social immigrants. germany, France etc get the doctors scientists before us so the more we stop the more of the dregs we get.

 

I hope that doesn't sound bad but if we discourage the immigrants from entering or make it harder for the ones needed they will go elsewhere.

I don't blame anyone for wanting to better themselves but so many hear stories about how great things are here only to find out they are only  slightly better off.

 

WTF

 

Ku Klux Ken is back.

[lavrentis]

We'll be out the EU soon enough anyway so I doubt that 10mil increase will happen by 2035.

[Webbo]

We'll be out the EU soon enough anyway so I doubt that 10mil increase will happen by 2035.

Don't hold your breath.

[Strokes]

We'll be out the EU soon enough anyway so I doubt that 10mil increase will happen by 2035.

I very much doubt that, the propaganda that will follow if we do get a referendum will keep us in it. I have no doubt.

[Guest MattP]

I very much doubt that, the propaganda that will follow if we do get a referendum will keep us in it. I have no doubt.

 

Yep.

 

There is nothing the main parties won't do to keep themselves on a the gravy train.

 

And good luck getting the BBC to put a fair argument across when they receive millions of pounds worth of funding from the EU.

[davieG]

99.9% of the population including me won't know what they're voting for as no one ever gives an uncontested view as to what is good/bad about our membership and whether on balance it's a good or bad deal for us.

I'll probably abstain.

[Guest MattP]

99.9% of the population including me won't know what they're voting for as no one ever gives an uncontested view as to what is good/bad about our membership and whether on balance it's a good or bad deal for us.

I'll probably abstain.

 

The economic arguments have been debated by both sides and no one can come to a complete conclusion on if it would benefit or not.

 

That said, I'll be voting to come out on issues of sovereignty regardless, I find it unnacceptable that control of our borders and certain laws can be decided by people of whom some have never even set foot in this country let alone been voted for by the people of it.

[leicsmac]

The economic arguments have been debated by both sides and no one can come to a complete conclusion on if it would benefit or not.

 

That said, I'll be voting to come out on issues of sovereignty regardless, I find it unnacceptable that control of our borders and certain laws can be decided by people of whom some have never even set foot in this country let alone been voted for by the people of it.

 

I find it unacceptable that an Australian-American (and possibly his buddies too) can have so much control over our political process (he may not control the laws, but he has considerable sway over the lawmakers) despite having never been voted for by the people of it.

 

Do agree that there needs to be more accountability and transparency within the EU, mind.

[Webbo]

I find it unacceptable that an Australian-American (and possibly his buddies too) can have so much control over our political process (he may not control the laws, but he has considerable sway over the lawmakers) despite having never been voted for by the people of it.

 

Do agree that there needs to be more accountability and transparency within the EU, mind.

Nobody can force you to read any of Murdoch's products, we don't have the same option with the EU.

[Guest MattP]

I find it unacceptable that an Australian-American (and possibly his buddies too) can have so much control over our political process (he may not control the laws, but he has considerable sway over the lawmakers) despite having never been voted for by the people of it.

 

Do agree that there needs to be more accountability and transparency within the EU, mind.

 

No one can force you to put your money into Murdochs pocket though.

 

edit; sorry didn't read Webbos before I replied.

[leicsmac]

Nobody can force you to read any of Murdoch's products, we don't have the same option with the EU.

But the ill informed choices made by those who do affect me whether I read them or not, so the net result is the same.

It still results in an individual having an amount of political power no one who has not been voted in should have. Influencing enough people to vote in a particular way and actually passing the legislation yourself in a political organisation are the same thing in my book, and both should be the sole preserve of elected officials.

[Webbo]

But the ill informed choices made by those who do affect me whether I read them or not, so the net result is the same.

It still results in an individual having an amount of political power no one who has not been voted in should have. Influencing enough people to vote in a particular way and actually passing the legislation yourself in a political organisation are the same thing in my book, and both should be the sole preserve of elected officials.

For a start "ill informed choices" in your opinion, just because you disagree doesn't make them wrong.

 

Secondly 80% of the population get their news from the BBC, the influence of people like Murdoch are vastly overstated.

[Guest MattP]

But the ill informed choices made by those who do affect me whether I read them or not, so the net result is the same.

 

Thats pretty arrogant.

 

And Murdoch has shifted his support between Labour and the Tories over the last 20 years, so are his readers just ill informed some of the time?

[ADK]

Anyone who votes based on what they read in a tabloid is ill informed in my opinion. That doesn't stop them making the right choice, it just means it is for the wrong reasons.

[Guest MattP]

Makes you proud to be British doesn't it? Imagine Thatcher, Attlee or Churchill stooping to things as cheap as this.

 

[leicsmac]

For a start "ill informed choices" in your opinion, just because you disagree doesn't make them wrong.

Secondly 80% of the population get their news from the BBC, the influence of people like Murdoch are vastly overstated.

I'm sorry, people who read the majority of Murdoch print media are ill informed by it. Perhaps the Times being the sole exception. These papers exist to push a particular political view, not to be even handed and informative. You want to be informed, use a variety of sources, but most people don't have the time or inclination.

Aaron to your second point, print media in this country still gas a massive influence. Why do leading politicians get one meeting with Murdoch to impress him? Has he ever picked a losing side in a UK general election?

If the Beeb were owned by one foreign individual I would agree with you, but it's not - it's a British institution owned, is a sense, by us all. And has it actually given an active endorsement to vote for any political party in the way Murdoch's media does?

[Guest MattP]

Aaron to your second point, print media in this country still gas a massive influence. Why do leading politicians get one meeting with Murdoch to impress him? Has he ever picked a losing side in a UK general election?

If the Beeb were owned by one foreign individual I would agree with you, but it's not - it's a British institution owned, is a sense, by us all. And has it actually given an active endorsement to vote for any political party in the way Murdoch's media does?

 

People read far too much into that, he just backs what the polls are saying at the time. Labour were dead far before he switched his opinion to the Tories last year.

 

His papers will support whoever is leading public opinion at the time, don't read too much into his influence over it.

 

If Labour have a comfy lead in 2015 he'll desert the Tories,. don't worry about that.

 

 

(Though I'd even take that over a rag like the Daily Mirror which actually still gave Gordon Brown full support with a straight face)

[Webbo]

If the Beeb were owned by one foreign individual I would agree with you, but it's not - it's a British institution owned, is a sense, by us all. And has it actually given an active endorsement to vote for any political party in the way Murdoch's media does?

It's a little more subtle than that.

[leicsmac]

Thats pretty arrogant.

And Murdoch has shifted his support between Labour and the Tories over the last 20 years, so are his readers just ill informed some of the time?

ADK pretty much put it right. Anyone who votes based on what they read in a tabloid is ill informed. But they do, and that's the basis of Murdoch's political strength.

[leicsmac]

People read far too much into that, he just backs what the polls are saying at the time. Labour were dead far before he switched his opinion to the Tories last year.

His papers will support whoever is leading public opinion at the time, don't read too much into his influence over it.

If Labour have a comfy lead in 2015 he'll desert the Tories,. don't worry about that.

(Though I'd even take that over a rag like the Daily Mirror which actually still gave Gordon Brown full support with a straight face)

It's an interesting one. You think he follows public opinion, I think he manipulates it. Probably the truth is somewhere between the two.