Enoch Powell - The Great Betrayal

[Harry - LCFC]

I guess we've all learnt that racism's quite an emotive topic. 

[DennisNedry]

You do sound pretty certain about something that may not happen, if fact probably won't. Where does this conviction come from?

 

 

Simply from observing trends in demographics.

Unless we reach a balancing point where immigration to the UK almost ceases, or a point where immigrant families and their decendants stop having so many more children than the existing white British population. I think both of those things are extremely unlikely.

 

 

I guess we've all learnt that racism's quite an emotive topic.  

 

About 50% of threads on FoxesTalk tell us that

[Captain...]

 

Simply from observing trends in demographics.

Unless we reach a balancing point where immigration to the UK almost ceases, or a point where immigrant families and their decendants stop having so many more children than the existing white British population. I think both of those things are extremely unlikely.

 

 

 

About 50% of threads on FoxesTalk tell us that

 

 

Are talking specifically about blacks or immigration in general? This is what people are not specifiying, and the biggest problem I have with the speech, black is a colour, a skin colour in this case, there is no unifying dogma across blacks, they just look similar, some would say they all look the same. Other than that black covers a huge range of people and backgrounds, religions and attitudes.

 

There are more Asian immigrants than black, and a greater increase in Asian immigrants, but the greatest increase in terms of percentage make up of the UK of an individual ethnic group is non British and Irish whites, went up by 1.9%. The percentage share of blacks went up 1.2% (over 10 years), of Asians 2.7% but split out over Indian, Pakistani, Chinese, Bangladeshi and Other. Of those blacks and Asians that included British blacks and Asians. The largest amount of immigration is coming from white Europe.

 

See stats: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_England#Ethnicity  

[RobHawk]

This thread is the biggest let down in a while!

 

Real potential for a good battle of wits and ideas but instead Rod Hull is like the child in the playground who says one thing to get in an argument and then can only reply with "I know you are but what am i?"

[Mike Oxlong]

When did I say that?

 

I think that the 8 finalists in the 100m final in the Brasilian Olympic games will all be black btw

Are you suggesting that there is a correlation between the ability to make a quick getaway and a propensity to crime

[DennisNedry]

Are talking specifically about blacks or immigration in general? This is what people are not specifiying, and the biggest problem I have with the speech, black is a colour, a skin colour in this case, there is no unifying dogma across blacks, they just look similar, some would say they all look the same. Other than that black covers a huge range of people and backgrounds, religions and attitudes.

 

There are more Asian immigrants than black, and a greater increase in Asian immigrants, but the greatest increase in terms of percentage make up of the UK of an individual ethnic group is non British and Irish whites, went up by 1.9%. The percentage share of blacks went up 1.2% (over 10 years), of Asians 2.7% but split out over Indian, Pakistani, Chinese, Bangladeshi and Other. Of those blacks and Asians that included British blacks and Asians. The largest amount of immigration is coming from white Europe.

 

See stats: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_England#Ethnicity  

 

No I wasn't referring to black people specifically, I was referring to immigration in general. Black immigration was what worried people in the 60s, now it's mainly immigration from Asia or Eastern Europe.

 

Nationwide of course the percentages of all minorities still looks fairly small. But that is because immigrant populations are concentrated highly in inner city areas. In some cities (such as our own) they are now the majority. In areas like this intergration is very minimal. I don't know about elsewhere, but in Leicester you can almost map the spread of these populations into the suburbs. Oadby is a prime example. I think that white flight is a real thing.

 

But if you look at the birth rates (I've heard - maybe wrongly - that 1/4 of births in the UK are from foreign born mothers. Take into account 2nd generation immigrants and that figure is even higher). It is simple mathematics then to predict how much of a demographical change is coming everywhere. Like a bacteria population goes 1 - 2 - 4 - 8 - 16 - 32 - 64 - 128 every 20 minutes until it is millions in number, the same will happen with immigrant populations and their children. (I am not likening immigrants to a disease or anything like that, I'm just illustrating a point about population).

 

I'd be very surprised if White British people were the ethnic majority by the turn of the next century. Is that a bad thing? In my opinion, yes it is - and I know that opinion has a hell of a lot of support and a hell of a lot of criticism.

[indierich06]

But if you look at the birth rates (I've heard - maybe wrongly - that 1/4 of births in the UK are from foreign born mothers. Take into account 2nd generation immigrants and that figure is even higher). It is simple mathematics then to predict how much of a demographical change is coming everywhere. Like a bacteria population goes 1 - 2 - 4 - 8 - 16 - 32 - 64 - 128 every 20 minutes until it is millions in number, the same will happen with immigrant populations and their children. (I am not likening immigrants to a disease or anything like that, I'm just illustrating a point about population).

 

Then by that logic, for every child born to an immigrant mother, there are three British children born. Even if you take into account 2nd generation immigrants, it's hardly like immigrant children are outnumbering us, is it? 

[Captain...]

 

No I wasn't referring to black people specifically, I was referring to immigration in general. Black immigration was what worried people in the 60s, now it's mainly immigration from Asia or Eastern Europe.

 

Nationwide of course the percentages of all minorities still looks fairly small. But that is because immigrant populations are concentrated highly in inner city areas. In some cities (such as our own) they are now the majority. In areas like this intergration is very minimal. I don't know about elsewhere, but in Leicester you can almost map the spread of these populations into the suburbs. Oadby is a prime example. I think that white flight is a real thing.

 

But if you look at the birth rates (I've heard - maybe wrongly - that 1/4 of births in the UK are from foreign born mothers. Take into account 2nd generation immigrants and that figure is even higher). It is simple mathematics then to predict how much of a demographical change is coming everywhere. Like a bacteria population goes 1 - 2 - 4 - 8 - 16 - 32 - 64 - 128 every 20 minutes until it is millions in number, the same will happen with immigrant populations and their children. (I am not likening immigrants to a disease or anything like that, I'm just illustrating a point about population).

 

I'd be very surprised if White British people were the ethnic majority by the turn of the next century. Is that a bad thing? In my opinion, yes it is - and I know that opinion has a hell of a lot of support and a hell of a lot of criticism.

 

 

Concerns about immigration are understandable, but in my honest opinion I am more interested in those that identify as being British, regardless of skin colour. I would rather see an increase in black British than non British whites.

 

I disagree that white British will become the minority by the turn of the century, partly because I don't believe we will be measuring people by skin colour by then, but mainly because we have been on the receiving end of some very heavy immigration for close to a century now and that will have to stop because we cannot sustain our population increasing much more.

 

I do hope that any immigration policies are an Iron fist in a velvet glove, any heavy handed approach to closing the borders and kicking out immigrants will almost certainly lead to increased trouble and violence amongst ethnic groups. If we want to tackle immigration we have to be firm with Europe (and not just leave) and we have to be strict, but there has to be a degree of compassion and understanding, these are people's lives we are discussing here not just numbers to move around.

[bovril]

 

 

 

 

Concerns about immigration are understandable, but in my honest opinion I am more interested in those that identify as being British, regardless of skin colour. I would rather see an increase in black British than non British whites.

 

I disagree that white British will become the minority by the turn of the century, partly because I don't believe we will be measuring people by skin colour by then, but mainly because we have been on the receiving end of some very heavy immigration for close to a century now and that will have to stop because we cannot sustain our population increasing much more.

 

I do hope that any immigration policies are an Iron fist in a velvet glove, any heavy handed approach to closing the borders and kicking out immigrants will almost certainly lead to increased trouble and violence amongst ethnic groups. If we want to tackle immigration we have to be firm with Europe (and not just leave) and we have to be strict, but there has to be a degree of compassion and understanding, these are people's lives we are discussing here not just numbers to move around.

 

 

Well that seems like an equally odd way to define it. I've lived in a couple of different countries and never índentified'myself as anything other than English. National identity is pretty flimsy anyway. I could live next door to someone who identifies solely as Latvian, eats latvian food, supports the latvian football team, listen to Baltic-pop. I wouldn't give a shit as long as he respects the laws of the country. Similarly, if someone breaks the law or shows no intention to find work, I'm not going to be placated by the fact he supports the national team, drinks ale and sees himself as British, even if he was born here. Dividing people by how much they identify with the dominant culture is as unfair as by skin colour.

[MooseBreath]

Then by that logic, for every child born to an immigrant mother, there are three British children born. Even if you take into account 2nd generation immigrants, it's hardly like immigrant children are outnumbering us, is it?

Only if the growth is linear, the point is that it's not. If one in four mothers are non-white, while only about one in ten females are non-white, then it's clear that non-whites are breeding at a considerably higher rate. So if that trend continues you get exponential growth among non-whites while the white population remains static.

Not saying it will happen like that, but the theory is sound.

[Captain...]

Well that seems like an equally odd way to define it. I've lived in a couple of different countries and never índentified'myself as anything other than English. National identity is pretty flimsy anyway. I could live next door to someone who identifies solely as Latvian, eats latvian food, supports the latvian football team, listen to Baltic-pop. I wouldn't give a shit as long as he respects the laws of the country. Similarly, if someone breaks the law or shows no intention to find work, I'm not going to placated by the fact he supports the national team, drinks ale and sees himself as British, even if he was born here. Dividing people by how much they identify with the dominant culture is as unfair as by skin colour.

 

You're right, and I'm not going to start treating people differently because they do or don't identify as British, but from a cultural and economic point of view those that don't identify as British are more likely to come over here to earn money/sponge off the state and send money back home. I have no problem with people doing that, but I think that should be limited and controlled more than those that want to come here to live and contribute.

[bovril]

You're right, and I'm not going to start treating people differently because they do or don't identify as British, but from a cultural and economic point of view those that don't identify as British are more likely to come over here to earn money/sponge off the state and send money back home. I have no problem with people doing that, but I think that should be limited and controlled more than those that want to come here to live and contribute.

 

With all due respect I think that's nonsense. You've been posting (correctly) about how people shouldn't be pidgeon-holed by ethnicity and now revert to cliches about sponging and sending money home. I can't agree that identifying as English makes you elss likely to 'scrounge' or 'sponge' , I think you're more intelligent than that and I'm sure you've seen the stats disproving this. I work for a Bulgarian-British company in Sofia, I send a lot of my money home. I also pay taxes and contribute to the local economy.

[ADK]

If you want to have a look at how immigration works then the USA is a decent example. Despite the fact the country is basically made up of immigrant decedents, the country has a pretty strong national identity. 

With all due respect I think that's nonsense. You've been posting (correctly) about how people shouldn't be pidgeon-holed by ethnicity and now revert to cliches about sponging and sending money home. I can't agree that identifying as English makes you elss likely to 'scrounge' or 'sponge' , I think you're more intelligent than that and I'm sure you've seen the stats disproving this. I work for a Bulgarian-British company in Sofia, I send a lot of my money home. I also pay taxes and contribute to the local economy.

 

I agree, I don't think that was the most well thought out post by CPF

[leicsmac]

With all due respect I think that's nonsense. You've been posting (correctly) about how people shouldn't be pidgeon-holed by ethnicity and now revert to cliches about sponging and sending money home. I can't agree that identifying as English makes you elss likely to 'scrounge' or 'sponge' , I think you're more intelligent than that and I'm sure you've seen the stats disproving this. I work for a Bulgarian-British company in Sofia, I send a lot of my money home. I also pay taxes and contribute to the local economy.

 

Gotta second this. During my first stint in the Far East I sent a massive chunk of my pay home to pay for my Masters degree, and now I'm back here I may do so again. Should the nationalist loons over here be coming after me for that?

[Guest MattP]

If you want to have a look at how immigration works then the USA is a decent example. Despite the fact the country is basically made up of immigrant decedents, the country has a pretty strong national identity.

 

Different attitude though.

 

People there sing the national anthem before school, being American is something considered proud, you see flags flying everywhere. You can't get that here when you spent 30 years encouraging people to still live by their own customs from afar and not remotly put any policy in place to intergrate them.

 

The blacks have done the best out of them, most of them who are 2nd 3rd generation immigrants seem to consider themselves British now. Go to Tower Hamlets, Lozells or Manningham and see how British the Muslim immigrants want to be, most of them have no interest in it. 30% of Manningham doesnt even speak the language.

 

It's been a monumental fcuk up that will never be reversed.

[Captain...]

With all due respect I think that's nonsense. You've been posting (correctly) about how people shouldn't be pidgeon-holed by ethnicity and now revert to cliches about sponging and sending money home. I can't agree that identifying as English makes you elss likely to 'scrounge' or 'sponge' , I think you're more intelligent than that and I'm sure you've seen the stats disproving this. I work for a Bulgarian-British company in Sofia, I send a lot of my money home. I also pay taxes and contribute to the local economy.

 

The sponging comment was a nod and a wink to my right leaning friends. I don't think that and have had many an argument over the sponging immigrants.

 

The point I'm making is not that we shouldn't have economic migrants that come over here do a job and then leave with their pockets bulging, but I do think that that should be controlled as it is a drain on the economy especially when jobs are at a premium and immigrants are coming here and willing to work for less. If the numbers of people doing that get too high then it will weaken our economy.

[Captain...]

Gotta second this. During my first stint in the Far East I sent a massive chunk of my pay home to pay for my Masters degree, and now I'm back here I may do so again. Should the nationalist loons over here be coming after me for that?

 

I'll let you off as you are a skilled worker, performing a job that a native Korean can't do. Would you have got a visa to work there if you were applying for shelf stacking jobs in the local supermarket?

[ADK]

We might actually need immigrant labour again soon if the economy continues to recover. Although my main problem with immigration is the fact we are physically short of space for more people.

[leicsmac]

Different attitude though.

 

People there sing the national anthem before school, being American is something considered proud, you see flags flying everywhere. You can't get that here when you spent 30 years encouraging people to still live by their own customs from afar and not remotly put any policy in place to intergrate them.

 

The blacks have done the best out of them, most of them who are 2nd 3rd generation immigrants seem to consider themselves British now. Go to Tower Hamlets, Lozells or Manningham and see how British the Muslim immigrants want to be, most of them have no interest in it. 30% of Manningham doesnt even speak the language.

 

It's been a monumental fcuk up that will never be reversed.

 

Perhaps the 2nd or 3rd generation Muslims will pick up the culture in the same way the black immigrant population has done. Naive maybe, but you never know.

 

In any case, I've said on here before that you can't force people to integrate, and it's similar with any immigrant population around the world. All you can do is encourage as much as possible. 

 

I'll let you off as you are a skilled worker, performing a job that a native Korean can't do. Would you have got a visa to work there if you were applying for shelf stacking jobs in the local supermarket?

 

This is true. That being said, doesn't stop some of the folk over here insisting English teaching could be done entirely by Korean English speakers and all the weigukin should go home. Or that we should be treated as second-class citizens because we're not 'pure'. 

 

That said, it's a tiny minority of the population that thinks that. Just goes to show people are people everywhere, I guess.

 

Edit: Google 'Korean Sentry' for a quick laugh if you like. The delicious irony of course being that most of its contributors actually don't live in Korea. 

[James.]

Go to Tower Hamlets, Lozells or Manningham and see how British the Muslim immigrants want to be, most of them have no interest in it.

 

What do you want people to do in Tower Hamlets to be more British?

[bovril]

The sponging comment was a nod and a wink to my right leaning friends. I don't think that and have had many an argument over the sponging immigrants.

 

The point I'm making is not that we shouldn't have economic migrants that come over here do a job and then leave with their pockets bulging, but I do think that that should be controlled as it is a drain on the economy especially when jobs are at a premium and immigrants are coming here and willing to work for less. If the numbers of people doing that get too high then it will weaken our economy.

 

Fair points. I just found the original comment "I'd rather have black British than white non-British" very odd when you had been rightly pointing out that it's unfair to judge people on such things as ethnicity and nationality.

[bovril]

Different attitude though.

 

People there sing the national anthem before school, being American is something considered proud, you see flags flying everywhere. You can't get that here when you spent 30 years encouraging people to still live by their own customs from afar and not remotly put any policy in place to intergrate them.

 

The blacks have done the best out of them, most of them who are 2nd 3rd generation immigrants seem to consider themselves British now. Go to Tower Hamlets, Lozells or Manningham and see how British the Muslim immigrants want to be, most of them have no interest in it. 30% of Manningham doesnt even speak the language.

 

It's been a monumental fcuk up that will never be reversed.

 

I think it's always different to compare UK and US since 'American' culture is a composite of so many immgrant cultures. I'd say that Americans are more connected to their roots than 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants in the UK.

[Guest MattP]

What do you want people to do in Tower Hamlets to be more British?

 

Speaking English would be a good start, it's nuisance having to ask 4/5 people in an area of your capital before getting an answer. Understand it if I'm outside Bcukingham Palace or the Tate Modern but not here.

 

Show your face, it's polite and we do that. Have the local shopkeepers there stocking English newspapers and again speak English. Don't spit Khat out along the street at 3pm, don't stock extremist Islamic literature in the local libraries that are open to all, don't sweep an increased level of violence towards people base on sexual orientation under the carpet.Don't enforce councillors to have join in Ramdan despite not being Muslim.

 

That said, I'm avoiding he area at all costs now anyway so its not going to effect me in the future.

[DennisNedry]

Then by that logic, for every child born to an immigrant mother, there are three British children born. Even if you take into account 2nd generation immigrants, it's hardly like immigrant children are outnumbering us, is it? 

 

That's the point mate, it's got from a single figure percentage to 25% in a few decades, and it is rising and will continue to rise.

[hackneyfox]

That's the point mate, it's got from a single figure percentage to 25% in a few decades, and it is rising and will continue to rise.

It won't though, aren't there figures showing that immigrant families tend to have larger families when they first arrive (obviously dependant on who we are talking about here) as that is the norm at home, a couple of generations later and those figures have dropped.