Enoch Powell - The Great Betrayal

[leicsmac]

Can you answer a question without asking a question, please.

 

Sorry about that, I thought I gave my point of view and then asked a rhetorical question to which everyone knows the answer. 

 

Gangster rap or Baroque?

 

 

90's indie.

[lavrentis]

In regards to his speech I always thought the controversial part because he said "the black man would have the whip hand over the white man", I think people were more shocked at the thought of this and assumed it would never take place. Now in modern times, how on earth is that comment racist? Must be a good visionary to be able to say this at a time when that would have been unbelievable.

[Harry - LCFC]

In general I'm getting figures saying that the poverty rate amongst black people is twice as high as it is amongst white people. And that a black person is three times as likely to be arrested than a white person.

 

I won't deny that this leaves a gap in my previous explanation.

 

I'd add cultural factors to what I've said. Others have mentioned the rap culture which softly implies that violent and aggressive acts are acceptable. It seems that 'being black' has been made into an identity with certain 'values' if you could call them that - this is regrettable - black youths see this exhibited in music videos and from others and think there is a certain character to live up to. But if you aren't affected by this culture then you won't become part of it, my friend has experienced plenty of British culture and as such has similar values to me, your upbringing determines who you are not your race.

[Captain...]

I know that i`ll be called a racist (the word "racist" is a word that subdues us, makes us feel guilty and is a tool to control weak minded idiots) by some members for posting this but I say that they are the racists, they are the weak minded sheep that have been dicked by the media into thinking that its ok to wipe out their own culture.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EB-wguopzck

 

So why have you posted this? (and a few other posts recently saying "I know I'll get called a racist but...")

 

What is your opinion, stop hiding behind an outdated speech which is not relevant today, the world has changed a lot and his predicitions are already 24 years late, you can draw some paralells, but you can also draw paralells with the Bible, or 1984, but it was written in a different time. So far you have posted a well known speech by a known racist (even if you can argue that the speech isn't he was) and just asked lots of questions.

 

So Rod, what do you believe, and what do you think should happen?

[Mike Oxlong]

Numerically, more whites appear on Kyle.

Statistically, this is at least as worrying as other statistics.

[indierich06]

Pretty much agree with all of this, which is why Enoch was right, to a degree. It is true that those from poorer backgrounds tend to commit more crime, which is why if you import thousands upon thousands of people from poorer backgrounds, you get more crime.

I think that's what Enoch was trying to say. Admittedly I haven't listened to the whole speech for a long time, but I don't think there is anything racist about what he said. He simply pointed out that openig the floodgates to waves of people more prone to criminality would lead to higher crime.

Muslim paedo gangs

Home grown terrorists

Black gun culture

Child marriage

Female genital mutilation

All imported crimes and immorality. Rivers of blood? Depends who you ask. Families of the London bombing victims would probably say yes.

 

As long as there is an underclass, this country will have these problems - skin colour and religion don't even come into it. Yeah, maybe there wouldn't be so much 'imported crime' as you call it, but If everyone had agreed with Powell and immigration was severely reduced back in the 60s, we'd be seeing similar problems today, just with impoverished white youths instead.

 

There'd still be paedos, there'd still be gang violence, there'd still be murder, there'd still be robbery, there'd still be rape, there'd still be every kind of crime you can imagine. It's just the people committing them would have different coloured faces.

 

In times like these, where the government only serves to make the rich richer and the poor poorer, it's no wonder that our society is the mess that it is. Not only do they do nothing to try and change the way society is, they actively encourage its continuation. They don't want equality - they want the poor to know their place.

[indierich06]

 I repped him for the 2nd 3rd and 4th paragraphs 

 

..and you still have not explained to me why 12% of the population of London commit 60+% of violent crime....

 

Back to the point... Watch the video and tell me he`s wrong 

 

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

 

You just keep blaming the naughty black people, I'm sure it's nice and reassuring to have a bogey man that you can demonise and be afraid of.

[Samilktray]

Do you just hide behind 'statistics' or have you actually been out into the real world and seen what happens for yourself?

[Finnegan]

Indeed it is sometimes frustrating to see race brought into the immigration debate. I really wish that poverty, race, nationality and crime weren't so mixed up with each other by some people - there's a statistical link between them but that doesn't necessarily mean causation.

I will look for them. My explanation makes sense though does it not? Poverty leads to criminals. Race does not.

I see you've repped Moose, someone who, like me, notes that there is a statistical link between race and crime but realises that there is a third factor involved.

Divide and rule, young Harry. Get the white working class blaming the ethnic working class and both are too busy arguing it out to blame the influential ruling class.

Tackling the root of the problem costs money. Whipping up hatred in the tabloids makes money.

[/Ken]

[MooseBreath]

As long as there is an underclass, this country will have these problems - skin colour and religion don't even come into it. Yeah, maybe there wouldn't be so much 'imported crime' as you call it, but If everyone had agreed with Powell and immigration was severely reduced back in the 60s, we'd be seeing similar problems today, just with impoverished white youths instead.

There'd still be paedos, there'd still be gang violence, there'd still be murder, there'd still be robbery, there'd still be rape, there'd still be every kind of crime you can imagine. It's just the people committing them would have different coloured faces.

In times like these, where the government only serves to make the rich richer and the poor poorer, it's no wonder that our society is the mess that it is. Not only do they do nothing to try and change the way society is, they actively encourage its continuation. They don't want equality - they want the poor to know their place.

Of course there would still be crime, but there wouldn't be as much. Not importing crime doesn't mean there would be a rush of natives committing crime to make up the numbers. There is not some kind of natural crime quota that will always be reached regardless of what type of people are in the country. So the fact remains that if you import lots and lots of people who are more prone to commit crime, you will get more crime.

[Strokes]

Of course there would still be crime, but there wouldn't be as much. Not importing crime doesn't mean there would be a rush of natives committing crime to make up the numbers. There is not some kind of natural crime quota that will always be reached regardless of what type of people are in the country. So the fact remains that if you import lots and lots of people who are more prone to commit crime, you will get more crime.

For every doctor their are 10 theives

[indierich06]

Of course there would still be crime, but there wouldn't be as much. Not importing crime doesn't mean there would be a rush of natives committing crime to make up the numbers. There is not some kind of natural crime quota that will always be reached regardless of what type of people are in the country. So the fact remains that if you import lots and lots of people who are more prone to commit crime, you will get more crime.

 

Well, we're talking about hypotheticals - we'll never know for sure, will we? But the 'imported crimes' you talk about like rape gangs, terrorism, genital mutilation, while terrible, are dwarfed in comparison by every day crimes, murder, violent crime, robbery etc. Gang culture existed long before immigration and would still be a problem without immigration, possibly gun crime would still be a problem too - young kids with nothing to lose, running with gangs to get that sense of identity and belonging, they'd still be using guns to attack rivals or commit crimes. These things aren't endemic to immigrants, they're endemic to the poor and impoverished.

 

We obviously disagree on the level of 'imported crime', but I maintain that if you take out the immigration factor, levels of crime would remain more or less the same - in my opinion.

 

Even if immigrants were the sole cause of all of this country's problems - and they're certainly not - the only thing we could do to 'solve' that problem is 'send them home', which is an absolute non-starter, or exterminate them. Both are abhorrent and we're not a Nazi state.

 

So our government should be working on solving problems, rather than seeking to maintain the status quo and even exacerbate them.

[DennisNedry]

This thread has gone off on a bit of a tangent regarding crime figures relating to different ethnic groups, which I don't think is the purpose of this thread.

 

I can't watch the video (Believe it or not, I'm at work) but I am familiar with the beliefs of Enoch Powell and they extend much wider than 'black crime'

 

I do agree to an extent with what Rod is getting at regarding the changing of British culture. The more liberal minded will see it as evolution or enrichment. But I personally see it more as erosion or even destruction.

It is nothing to do with the colour of people's skin for me, the important thing is the culture, customs and traditions of the immigrants. I think the culture we already have (or had) is better than what immigration has to offer us...

I prefer to see myself at patriotic rather than xenophobic but others may see me as racist.

[Harry - LCFC]

This thread has gone off on a bit of a tangent regarding crime figures relating to different ethnic groups, which I don't think is the purpose of this thread.

 

I can't watch the video (Believe it or not, I'm at work) but I am familiar with the beliefs of Enoch Powell and they extend much wider than 'black crime'

 

I do agree to an extent with what Rod is getting at regarding the changing of British culture. The more liberal minded will see it as evolution or enrichment. But I personally see it more as erosion or even destruction.

It is nothing to do with the colour of people's skin for me, the important thing is the culture, customs and traditions of the immigrants. I think the culture we already have (or had) is better than what immigration has to offer us...

I prefer to see myself at patriotic rather than xenophobic but others may see me as racist.

 

Preferring your own culture can't be racist. Cultures, as you say, are to do with values, attitudes and traditions - opinions essentially - which can be criticised to your heart's content. If you were to have a particularly extreme view of other cultures then this could be regarded as xenophobic but not racist.

[Captain...]

This thread has gone off on a bit of a tangent regarding crime figures relating to different ethnic groups, which I don't think is the purpose of this thread.

 

I can't watch the video (Believe it or not, I'm at work) but I am familiar with the beliefs of Enoch Powell and they extend much wider than 'black crime'

 

I do agree to an extent with what Rod is getting at regarding the changing of British culture. The more liberal minded will see it as evolution or enrichment. But I personally see it more as erosion or even destruction.

It is nothing to do with the colour of people's skin for me, the important thing is the culture, customs and traditions of the immigrants. I think the culture we already have (or had) is better than what immigration has to offer us...

I prefer to see myself at patriotic rather than xenophobic but others may see me as racist.

 

What is with this trend for now justifying opinions by saying that "you may see as a racist" or "some on here will call me racist."

 

It's just the new way of saying, "I'm not racist but..." if people are calling you racist it means one of 3 things,

 

a) You are a racist

b) You've not explained your point clearly

c) The people that are calling you racist don't understand what racism is

 

What you have said isn't racist, and you are allowed to talk about issues invovling race without being called racist, but I disagree that immigration is responsible for the erosion of British culture, we are still majority British, 13% are immigrants according to the last census, so 87% are british. The responsibility for the erosion and evolution of British culture is down to us. We are very insular as a nation and we like to make ourselves even more insular, as soon as anything becomes popular it is destroyed, we must be into something new and original until it becomes popular, then it will be destoyed or mass produced to the point where it bears no resemblance to the original. Just look at the attitudes of the press, everything must be new and exclusive. How many people turn their noses up at things like Morris Dancing, folk music, pagan festivals. Take real ale for example a proud history of british brewing was on the verge of collapse as we were lapping up cheap shit like Carling or imported crap like Stella. Real Ales are seeing a resurgence as they are thought of as niche and therefore cool, but I will expect a backlash soon.

 

Look around our high streets, how many foreign influences are there, Indian, Thai, Chinese, Italian, French every city has more of this type of food than English, on TV how much of our output is American, Australian, now there is a big trend for Scandinavian dramas.

 

I don't think that immigration has caused the erosion/evolution of British identity, but I do think our lack of a strong identity and willingness to embrace foreign culture makes it much easier for other cultures to come here and find acceptance and integrate into society (that's not saying that they all do).

 

Edit: Just to further illustrate my point, look at all the moaning about Halloween, originally a British festival for any yanks out there and Bonfire night, probably our biggest remaining truly British festival, imagine the looks you would get if you suggested to your mates you get a maypole out and skip round it for Mayday, we are responsible for the erosion of British culture because there are so many miserable joyless cvnts out there that can't stand the idea of someone else having fun and would rather moan about the immigrants than actually go out and celebrate Britain.

[Finnegan]

What CPF said. Massively.

[ADK]

Great post CPF.

[Strokes]

What is with this trend for now justifying opinions by saying that "you may see as a racist" or "some on here will call me racist."

It's just the new way of saying, "I'm not racist but..." if people are calling you racist it means one of 3 things,

a) You are a racist

b) You've not explained your point clearly

c) The people that are calling you racist don't understand what racism is

What you have said isn't racist, and you are allowed to talk about issues invovling race without being called racist, but I disagree that immigration is responsible for the erosion of British culture, we are still majority British, 13% are immigrants according to the last census, so 87% are british. The responsibility for the erosion and evolution of British culture is down to us. We are very insular as a nation and we like to make ourselves even more insular, as soon as anything becomes popular it is destroyed, we must be into something new and original until it becomes popular, then it will be destoyed or mass produced to the point where it bears no resemblance to the original. Just look at the attitudes of the press, everything must be new and exclusive. How many people turn their noses up at things like Morris Dancing, folk music, pagan festivals. Take real ale for example a proud history of british brewing was on the verge of collapse as we were lapping up cheap shit like Carling or imported crap like Stella. Real Ales are seeing a resurgence as they are thought of as niche and therefore cool, but I will expect a backlash soon.

Look around our high streets, how many foreign influences are there, Indian, Thai, Chinese, Italian, French every city has more of this type of food than English, on TV how much of our output is American, Australian, now there is a big trend for Scandinavian dramas.

I don't think that immigration has caused the erosion/evolution of British identity, but I do think our lack of a strong identity and willingness to embrace foreign culture makes it much easier for other cultures to come here and find acceptance and integrate into society (that's not saying that they all do).

Edit: Just to further illustrate my point, look at all the moaning about Halloween, originally a British festival for any yanks out there and Bonfire night, probably our biggest remaining truly British festival, imagine the looks you would get if you suggested to your mates you get a maypole out and skip round it for Mayday, we are responsible for the erosion of British culture because there are so many miserable joyless cvnts out there that can't stand the idea of someone else having fun and would rather moan about the immigrants than actually go out and celebrate Britain.

A lot of very good points in your post, I agree the identity crisis is very much down to ourselves. I think we should celebrate and enjoy the good things a hell of a lot more, and embrace the magnificent things other cultures bring too.

God save the queen

[Bettsj2]

Never really understood what people mean when they talk of British Culture.

How far back are you going and what are the good points that have been destroyed?

Are we talking about garden tea parties and dancing a la Pride and Prejudice, everyome pulling together when our houses are being bombed to shit, groups of young men getting together on a Saturday afternoon pissed up and having a ruck at the football or what??

In the 33 years i've been alive, immigration hasnt changed the way I live or feel one bit.

Am I just lucky? Am I ignorant? Or am I lucky that whether its a muslim gang of rapists or the catholic church covering decades of abuse by nonce priests, I can just see scum for being scum and not a colour?

[Trav Le Bleu]

Muslim paedo gangs

Home grown terrorists

Black gun culture

Child marriage

Female genital mutilation

All imported crimes and immorality. Rivers of blood? Depends who you ask. Families of the London bombing victims would probably say yes.

 

Concentration camps were, of course, an exported crime. We're brilliant we are and better than anyone else.

[MooseBreath]

Concentration camps were, of course, an exported crime. We're brilliant we are and better than anyone else.

Nice, relevant, present day example there.

[ADK]

Yeah we did a few bad things in a brutal conflict with a bunch of Dutch colonialists who were even more racist than we were over 100 years ago. Britain sucks.

[Rincewind]

I dolnt think I need to say anything other than give rep to the deserving.

[sphericalfox]

Rod exposing the racists among us!       Great thread! 

 

[Rincewind]

Rod exposing the racists among us!       Great thread! 

 

ood point. Never thought of it that way before.