SOCCERROO FOX Posted 15 December 2013 Posted 15 December 2013 Not really read much of this thread but in relation to Japan. I've watched them a fair bit over the past few years as we have drawn them in our last 2 qualifying campaigns and they beat us in the Asian Cup final. I would say they are just ahead of us and recent results would suggest that. Technically they are very good and we'll coached struggle a bit with physicality and they would back themselves to beat anyone. They are also very quick and tend to stack there midfield and build possession. Their midfield wins them games as they are disciplined and technically gifted.
Pride_Of_The_Midlands Posted 15 December 2013 Posted 15 December 2013 Fact is last time we both met, England won 2-1. Friendly or not.. WE WON TWO GOALS TO ONE. True Italy also got dominated by Japan at the Confederations Cup. We are both at the same level.
Finnegan Posted 15 December 2013 Posted 15 December 2013 Regardless what the rest of the argument is about, because I don't care, but Japan are better than Poland and Montenegro. They're not world beaters but they're hardly San Marino. They're always well organized with a fantastic work ethic and every year more and more of their better players are coming over to get good experience in European leagues, especially the Bundesliga. Got a tidy little squad now with Honda and Kagawa as stand out celebrities backed up by Kiyotake, Hosogai, Uchida, Nagatomo, Okazaki and Inui, etc. I get your point on world rankings, Loft, but Japan are probably the wrong team to mock. There's far worse at the WC.
Uncle Albert Posted 15 December 2013 Posted 15 December 2013 I never brought Japan into it mate, I just argued that they're not a good side, yeah they're probably better than Montenegro but I wouldn't say they're better than Poland or Ukraine.
Dan Posted 16 December 2013 Posted 16 December 2013 Jesus. World rankings - load of shite and I refuse to read into them. The initial point about Italy being 'no better' than England is a load of nonsense that only someone pro-England or anti-Italy could chirp out.
Kitchandro Posted 16 December 2013 Posted 16 December 2013 I never brought Japan into it mate, I just argued that they're not a good side, yeah they're probably better than Montenegro but I wouldn't say they're better than Poland or Ukraine. They are though.
MC Prussian Posted 16 December 2013 Posted 16 December 2013 I never brought Japan into it mate, I just argued that they're not a good side, yeah they're probably better than Montenegro but I wouldn't say they're better than Poland or Ukraine. Given the fact that football doesn't have such a long history in Japan compared to Poland and the Ukraine (as part of the former USSR), they've done exceptionally well in establishing a good youth setup and a quite competitive league. I don't know whether you have a certain bias towards Asian teams and thus tend to disregard and/or belittle them, but Japan are no pushovers. They've made steady progress both nationally and internationally and should not be taken lightly.
Uncle Albert Posted 16 December 2013 Posted 16 December 2013 The initial point about Italy being 'no better' than England is a load of nonsense that only someone pro-England or anti-Italy could chirp out. Nonsense? Nobody has been able to prove how Italy are a better side? World Cup qualifying campaign shows England matched the Italians and the last time we played Italy, England won. Or are we forgetting that and just going on a 0-0 draw and the fact they won a World Cup nearly 8 years ago.
Bert Posted 16 December 2013 Author Posted 16 December 2013 I just don't understand why our own fans seemingly have it in for England? Is it being Holier than thou? Even if we win the world cup, people will still moan, people will still be negative. We might not play the nicest stuff, or be the best team but just get behind the lads for god sake. I bet we are the only country whose fans are negative after a win. It's fecking embarrassing.
MC Prussian Posted 16 December 2013 Posted 16 December 2013 Nonsense? Nobody has been able to prove how Italy are a better side? World Cup qualifying campaign shows England matched the Italians and the last time we played Italy, England won. Or are we forgetting that and just going on a 0-0 draw and the fact they won a World Cup nearly 8 years ago. Unlike England, who last won the Cup in… Oops.
Manwell Pablo Posted 16 December 2013 Posted 16 December 2013 I just don't understand why our own fans seemingly have it in for England? Is it being Holier than thou? Even if we win the world cup, people will still moan, people will still be negative. We might not play the nicest stuff, or be the best team but just get behind the lads for god sake. I bet we are the only country whose fans are negative after a win. It's fecking embarrassing. It's just being pragmatic and honest, we aren't very good . I'll get behind them during the games but I think while we have a chance of taking points of both, both Italy and Uruguay on paper are better than us and the most likely outcome is defeat in both games. If we win the World Cup I will most certainly admit I was wrong, but that's not going to happen is it.
Bert Posted 16 December 2013 Author Posted 16 December 2013 It's not just that though is it, anyone that dares have a positive opinion on England gets vilified. If people had've said England are better than Brazil (when we were ranked 3rd) they'd have got laughed at, but it's ok for them to use the rankings to "prove" another team is better than us?
Dan Posted 16 December 2013 Posted 16 December 2013 Nonsense? Nobody has been able to prove how Italy are a better side? World Cup qualifying campaign shows England matched the Italians and the last time we played Italy, England won. Or are we forgetting that and just going on a 0-0 draw and the fact they won a World Cup nearly 8 years ago. Your argument is trying to draw out something that you can't actually officially prove - at the same time, you cannot prove England are better than Italy. For me it's as simple as they've won things more recently, they've got better players and they've got better youngsters as well. I just don't understand why our own fans seemingly have it in for England? Is it being Holier than thou? Even if we win the world cup, people will still moan, people will still be negative. We might not play the nicest stuff, or be the best team but just get behind the lads for god sake. I bet we are the only country whose fans are negative after a win. It's fecking embarrassing. No, it's called reality and appreciating that we really aren't great. We aren't terrible, but we are nothing special and that's been the case for a while.
Dan Posted 16 December 2013 Posted 16 December 2013 It's not just that though is it, anyone that dares have a positive opinion on England gets vilified. If people had've said England are better than Brazil (when we were ranked 3rd) they'd have got laughed at, but it's ok for them to use the rankings to "prove" another team is better than us? He's getting 'vilified' because he's made a comment I strongly don't agree with. Should I just pretend I think the same because I'm English? I've got pretty much the same stance as Manwell on this. I'll support England through the whole thing and I'll admit I'm wrong if we even get to the quarters, but I really don't think we're that great. Our main asset from even the Euros will not be with us in Brazil. World rankings are a load of bollocks and would have as much credibility to me if they were drawn out of a hat. Meaningless and blatantly fixed given that Blatter's side were ranked in the top eight in the world ahead of the draw (which they certainly aren't one of)
Bert Posted 16 December 2013 Author Posted 16 December 2013 No-one has said we are really special though? We're a lot better than some people think though, put it that way. Ultimately there's very little between us and Italy at the minute, I don't know why or how people can't actually see that. They've won a world cup 8 years ago and lost in a final to Spain where they got spanked by Spain. Last time we played Spain, we beat them, no? Last time we played Italy, we beat them? It all boils down to opinion on whether you think they have better players than us or not. So just because you "strongly don't agree" with it, that makes it ok to vilify him and that actually makes it right? It's his opinion, just as it is yours as well. Either way, people's attitude to our own national team stinks, it's embarrassing.
Dan Posted 16 December 2013 Posted 16 December 2013 So in the last 8 years, given there's only a competition every two years, they've won and lost a final? What have we done in that time? Quarters at best. This certainly isn't Italy's best side but I'm still pretty confident in saying it's better than England.
Bert Posted 16 December 2013 Author Posted 16 December 2013 I'm guessing in that case, Greece are better than us then.
Dan Posted 16 December 2013 Posted 16 December 2013 This is gonna go round in circles forever. Greece are not a better side than us and we're not a better side than Italy. There's no definitive way of proving it, just what I think.
Manwell Pablo Posted 16 December 2013 Posted 16 December 2013 It's not just that though is it, anyone that dares have a positive opinion on England gets vilified. If people had've said England are better than Brazil (when we were ranked 3rd) they'd have got laughed at, but it's ok for them to use the rankings to "prove" another team is better than us? No-one has said we are really special though? We're a lot better than some people think though, put it that way. Ultimately there's very little between us and Italy at the minute, I don't know why or how people can't actually see that. They've won a world cup 8 years ago and lost in a final to Spain where they got spanked by Spain. Last time we played Spain, we beat them, no? Last time we played Italy, we beat them? It all boils down to opinion on whether you think they have better players than us or not. So just because you "strongly don't agree" with it, that makes it ok to vilify him and that actually makes it right? It's his opinion, just as it is yours as well. Either way, people's attitude to our own national team stinks, it's embarrassing. I think the reason some people attempt ti vilify Lofty is more due to the way he speaks to people on occasion more than anything to do with his opinion
Manwell Pablo Posted 16 December 2013 Posted 16 December 2013 No-one has said we are really special though? We're a lot better than some people think though, put it that way. Ultimately there's very little between us and Italy at the minute, I don't know why or how people can't actually see that. They've won a world cup 8 years ago and lost in a final to Spain where they got spanked by Spain. Last time we played Spain, we beat them, no? Last time we played Italy, we beat them? It all boils down to opinion on whether you think they have better players than us or not. So just because you "strongly don't agree" with it, that makes it ok to vilify him and that actually makes it right? It's his opinion, just as it is yours as well. Either way, people's attitude to our own national team stinks, it's embarrassing. Well I think if you just look at the players they've got it's pretty easy to say they have better players and a better bench but there we are, not to mention they the fact that they don't bottle major tournaments and play well below their capabilities every team they enter one for nearly 10 years. And TBH the indifference towards the national team stems from the indifference shown towards by players management and the FA at times......for me anyway, frustrating experience being an England fan.
Uncle Albert Posted 16 December 2013 Posted 16 December 2013 Right now at this moment in time I just don't see how they're better than us? That's not me saying we're brilliant or world beaters, I just don't see the Italian hype.. It's been 18 months since they 'destroyed' us in that 0-0 draw, 18 months! In that time we've qualified for a World Cup on the same results as them, in a more testing group minus San Marino (though they had Malta) yet their group was that poor second place couldn't even get a play off place, Ukraine narrowly going out to France in the Play Offs and we progressed conceding less and scoring more.. Last time we played each other England won, yes not the superior Italians, England. Both teams played completely different sides to Euro 2012 game but England won. Our strongest eleven v theirs, we're on a par I would say, I don't get where they're better than us.
MC Prussian Posted 16 December 2013 Posted 16 December 2013 Right now at this moment in time I just don't see how they're better than us? That's not me saying we're brilliant or world beaters, I just don't see the Italian hype.. It's been 18 months since they 'destroyed' us in that 0-0 draw, 18 months! In that time we've qualified for a World Cup on the same results as them, in a more testing group minus San Marino (though they had Malta) yet their group was that poor second place couldn't even get a play off place, Ukraine narrowly going out to France in the Play Offs and we progressed conceding less and scoring more.. Last time we played each other England won, yes not the superior Italians, England. Both teams played completely different sides to Euro 2012 game but England won. Our strongest eleven v theirs, we're on a par I would say, I don't get where they're better than us. Goalkeepers? Advantage Italy. Defense? Advantage Italy. Midfield? Advantage Italy. Strikers? Maybe even.
Dan Posted 16 December 2013 Posted 16 December 2013 I fail to see how none of them getting a play-off place means anything in regards to how strong it was. That shows the sides were more even if anything. I'd say the standard of the groups were about level. As for their team? Buffon Bonucci - Barzagli - Chiellini Abate -------- Pirlo -------- Balzaretti De Rossi - Marchisio Balotelli - Giovinco That's excluding players like Nocerino, Montolivo, Insigne, Di Sciglio, Criscito, Di Natale, Rossi, Cassano and others I've probably forgotten. I'm no expert on Italy by any means but that's better than anything we'll offer IMO.
Manwell Pablo Posted 16 December 2013 Posted 16 December 2013 Right now at this moment in time I just don't see how they're better than us? That's not me saying we're brilliant or world beaters, I just don't see the Italian hype.. It's been 18 months since they 'destroyed' us in that 0-0 draw, 18 months! In that time we've qualified for a World Cup on the same results as them, in a more testing group minus San Marino (though they had Malta) yet their group was that poor second place couldn't even get a play off place, Ukraine narrowly going out to France in the Play Offs and we progressed conceding less and scoring more.. Last time we played each other England won, yes not the superior Italians, England. Both teams played completely different sides to Euro 2012 game but England won. Our strongest eleven v theirs, we're on a par I would say, I don't get where they're better than us. As I've said, IMO, we've got two players who would get in their defense and midfield, and they've got a better keeper, I've already gone through the players,, upfront they've got Balotelli we've got Rooney who both have similar goal scoring rates this domestic season and in international football as a whole. Only difference being Balotelli sometimes turns up and actually looks like a big game player in tournament games where as Rooney hasn't for nearly 10 years. I don't recall saying they're world beaters, I'd make Uruguay group favourates and they are much more dangerous than Italy, but they're marginally better than us. Far from world beating level .
Uncle Albert Posted 16 December 2013 Posted 16 December 2013 I give up, absolutely ridiculous. That starting Eleven isn't great, far from it. We'll see come the World Cup, hopefully a lot of you will remember this debate and comeback and say you were wrong when England beat them.
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