Benefits Street

[ADK]

Also I'll add that "advertised jobs" is a crap way of assessing the availability of work.

 

I'd wager there are many thousands of houses on the market at the moment but it is generally agreed there is a shortage of housing.

[Webbo]

To get JSA you need to show you are seeking work.

 

So either there are not actually that many real jobs for people or the system that this government has presided over is doing a crap job of ensuring people are actually seeking work.

This govt? The one that is constantly criticised for forcing people off benefits? The one that has seen unemployment fall whilst in office?

[cityfanlee23]

Great stat, could you clarify how many of them are unskilled and require zero experience? Perhaps give a break down of location or any physical restrictions. You could also give a breakdown of the skill sets of all 2.39 million to show how they all so neatly fit into every available job.

 

But you are right why don't the 2.39 million unemployed take these 550,000 jobs, then everything would be right with the world.

 

Nobody is denying that there are scrounging idiots sponging off the state, but to lump everyone on benefits as so is the same as treating all football fans as criminals because of the actions of a few.

 

I stated quite a few time's that there are those who genuinely cannot get the work.

Which falls into the catagory of being, Ill, Disabled. unable to get to specific locations, etc etc.

 

So really what you are doing is making excuses claiming that the majority of those jobs are unaccessible by those who don't have one?

 

I had a teacher who biked 32 miles a day to get to work from cambridge to newmarket.

 

The majority of these jobs are in cities, which are very accesible due to public transport.

 

I did not say everything would be right with the world. but out of 2.39 people, and over 550,000 available jobs, I would expect that most of them would be jobs you do not need qualifications for.

 

This lazy attitude towards work, mixed with the fact it's simple for people to move here and claim, is half of the reason that these unskilled jobs are available!!

 

 

 

As I said, There are people out there with no genuine way to work due to illness issued etc etc...

 

 

But the majority just cannot be bothered. and with the jobs available, For example a factory, Earning 12-14k per year working there working 40+ hours a week, when they could sit on their arse and earn the same? It's a no brainer, and If I did not have a job or the drive and determination to get one, and were not skilled enough to learn. I don't blame them for doing nothing, the government make it too easy.

 

I have a family member that was driving a lorry for around 16k a year, struggling by all means.

He decided enough was enough, and went to night college for a small fee (this fee can be paid in installments if required) to get himself trained as a plumber, he joined a plumbing company and worked his arse off...

 

Without spouting his finances all over the internet, he owns his house, has his own plumbing company and goes on 3 holidays a year for around a month at a time. all from struggling, I know this is an extreme example and not one I am basing my sole opinion on, but that drive is not there anymore!

 

All from hard work. what other excuse is there than to just get a job??

Unless you live in the middle of nowhere there is normally no excuse unless physically you cannot.

 

I know there are factors involved in everyones situation. but why can people not change their situation?

 

So many teenagers nowadays are lining the streets pissed up and drugged up, causing trouble. And ive watched it grow since the days of me being at school.

this lazy attitude spreads like a disease. just like these drug addicted parents breed like rabbits, causing problems for everyone else.

 

Either way, this debate can go on for thousands of years unless it's changed.

 

the government need to crack down on it and make it harder for people to claim unless they genuinely need it, because there should not be 550k+ jobs available in the UK.

 

I would be embarrassed to be unemployed, but the main thing I would be, Is stopping all the excuses. I was not privilaged to a rich upbringing, but I certainly wont stop until I can afford one of my own. people don't have the determination to keep going.

 

"Don't cry to quit, cry to keep going, You're already in pain, get a reward from it"

This unfortunately is not the way society thinks nowadays.

[ADK]

This govt? The one that is constantly criticised for forcing people off benefits? The one that has seen unemployment fall whilst in office?

 

I'm not the one moaning about benefits Webbo. My point isn't affected by whether the jobs figures are improving or not improving, merely addressing the erroneous belief that the majority of people on JSA aren't actually looking for work. Most of the criticism of the government is about disability benefits not JSA. Unless you count things like the workfare program.

I stated quite a few time's that there are those who genuinely cannot get the work.

Which falls into the catagory of being, Ill, Disabled. unable to get to specific locations, etc etc.

 

So really what you are doing is making excuses claiming that the majority of those jobs are unaccessible by those who don't have one?

 

I had a teacher who biked 32 miles a day to get to work from cambridge to newmarket.

 

The majority of these jobs are in cities, which are very accesible due to public transport.

 

I did not say everything would be right with the world. but out of 2.39 people, and over 550,000 available jobs, I would expect that most of them would be jobs you do not need qualifications for.

 

This lazy attitude towards work, mixed with the fact it's simple for people to move here and claim, is half of the reason that these unskilled jobs are available!!

 

 

 

As I said, There are people out there with no genuine way to work due to illness issued etc etc...

 

 

But the majority just cannot be bothered. and with the jobs available, For example a factory, Earning 12-14k per year working there working 40+ hours a week, when they could sit on their arse and earn the same? It's a no brainer, and If I did not have a job or the drive and determination to get one, and were not skilled enough to learn. I don't blame them for doing nothing, the government make it too easy.

 

I have a family member that was driving a lorry for around 16k a year, struggling by all means.

He decided enough was enough, and went to night college for a small fee (this fee can be paid in installments if required) to get himself trained as a plumber, he joined a plumbing company and worked his arse off...

 

Without spouting his finances all over the internet, he owns his house, has his own plumbing company and goes on 3 holidays a year for around a month at a time.

 

All from hard work. what other excuse is there than to just get a job??

Unless you live in the middle of nowhere there is normally no excuse unless physically you cannot.

 

I know there are factors involved in everyones situation. but why can people not change their situation?

 

So many teenagers nowadays are lining the streets pissed up and drugged up, causing trouble. And ive watched it grow since the days of me being at school.

this lazy attitude spreads like a disease. just like these drug addicted parents breed like rabbits, causing problems for everyone else.

 

Either way, this debate can go on for thousands of years unless it's changed.

 

the government need to crack down on it and make it harder for people to claim unless they genuinely need it, because there should not be 550k+ jobs available in the UK.

 

I would be embarrassed to be unemployed, but the main thing I would be, Is stopping all the excuses. I was not privilaged to a rich upbringing, but I certainly wont stop until I can afford one of my own. people don't have the determination to keep going.

 

"Don't cry to quit, cry to keep going, You're already in pain, get a reward from it"

This unfortunately is not the way society thinks nowadays.

 

Are you related to TPH?

[cityfanlee23]

Just another thing to point on with societies change of attitude...

 

 

I spoke to a builder a few weeks back and I remember what he said to me with regards to fellow builders and Health and safety Etc...

 

He said "10 years ago, I saw a massive argument between a foreman and a bricky, the bricky was saying, I'm not wearing those fvcking gloves and luminous jacket you can swing for it"

 

Nowadays the workers are saying "Hang on a minute, There is no way I am stepping foot in there without gloves and a luminous jacket on"

 

Times have changed, and attitudes have, not related to benefits, but just an insight into the way we have changed, the country is not strong willed anymore. It's try for 10 minuted then give up. a real Labour approach.

[Carl the Llama]

This govt? The one that is constantly criticised for forcing people off benefits? The one that has seen unemployment fall whilst in office?

To be fair after the massive hit it took it was bound to start picking up eventually. Not sure how much credit the govt can really take, especially when you consider how many of these new jobs are actually full-time. 

[purpleronnie]

Just another thing to point on with societies change of attitude...

 

 

I spoke to a builder a few weeks back and I remember what he said to me with regards to fellow builders and Health and safety Etc...

 

He said "10 years ago, I saw a massive argument between a foreman and a bricky, the bricky was saying, I'm not wearing those fvcking gloves and luminous jacket you can swing for it"

 

Nowadays the workers are saying "Hang on a minute, There is no way I am stepping foot in there without gloves and a luminous jacket on"

 

Times have changed, and attitudes have, not related to benefits, but just an insight into the way we have changed, the country is not strong willed anymore. It's try for 10 minuted then give up. a real Labour approach.

[Harry - LCFC]

I really don't see how individuals wanting to be safe can be equated to an unwillingness to work in society.

[Webbo]

I'm not the one moaning about benefits Webbo. My point isn't affected by whether the jobs figures are improving or not improving, merely addressing the erroneous belief that the majority of people on JSA aren't actually looking for work. Most of the criticism of the government is about disability benefits not JSA. Unless you count things like the workfare program.

 

Well what about workfare? You can't (that's a general you, not you personally) criticise the govt for forcing people to work and then claim they are not doing enough to force people to work.

 

Job centre workers and civil servants in general don't care. When my sister became a single mother she was told to go on benefits by the people she went to to get a job, other members of my family have been told the same. Thankfully they all got jobs and didn't fall into the trap of welfare dependency.

[ADK]

Workfare got criticised due to the fact it wasn't leading to employment and the work was unpaid. That meant the benefits were still having to be paid.

[Webbo]

Nobody on workfare got a job because of it?

[Soar Fox]

http://news.sky.com/story/1191494/benefits-street-police-to-probe-criminality

[ADK]

Nobody on workfare got a job because of it?

 

Nobody I know of. Even if someone somewhere did, how would you prove that job wouldn't have been taken up without workfare? Like many Tory benefits policies, it was a sound idea implemented badly. Same with the bedroom tax.

[Webbo]

Nobody I know of. Even if someone somewhere did, how would you prove that job wouldn't have been taken up without workfare? Like many Tory benefits policies, it was a sound idea implemented badly. Same with the bedroom tax.

As I understand it workfare was aimed at the long term unemployed, if they could have got a job without it how come they hadn't already?

[Manwell Pablo]

One that only gets on average £40 a week from work.

 

Lamby totally off topic and not necessarily down to anything you've said in this thread, I've noticed it's been awhile since I've told you that you are an embarrassment to the human race and I am glad that I am not you, and if I was you, I'd shoot myself with a Glock 9.   

 

So allow me to take this opportunity to tell you that you are an embarrassment to the human race, and I am glad I am not you, and if I was you, I'd shoot myself with a Glock 9.  

[Captain...]

Workfare got criticised due to the fact it wasn't leading to employment and the work was unpaid. That meant the benefits were still having to be paid.

 

But unemployment figures went down, and people got kicked off benefits for not wanting to be exploited in such and obvious way, so benefit claimants went down as well. Win win, I mean that is the point of the government isn't it? To get wicked stats at the end of their term in office.

[Rincewind]

Or give people more incentive to work.

 

I agree that a cycle exists but I don't believe that it can't be broken. Give the children a chance, help them out and hope they don't copy their parents.

agreed. This is why DNO was set up. To educate people and help them to help themselves. Mock it if you will but look at what is available to individuals as well as groups and businesses here who has had a look at the newspaper yet/ Link in another thread.

Parents have the responsibility to bring their children up right and give them love and support.

 

Unemployment figures will seem to go down if a lot of the work is part time or zero hour contracts. It doesn't mean benefits will stop. The number of people falling behind with mortgage payments have risen and many are just above the line where they would be able to claim.

 

This is one page

[Alf Bentley]

Jury still out on this programme for me. Good to see coverage of a part of society that TV often ignores, but I hope that future episodes are a bit more balanced: show the skivers and criminals, by all means, but also people keen to work.

 

[...] If there were really scores of genuine well-intentioned people suffering undeserved hardship you could guarantee the likes of the guardian and the BBC would be all over it like a rash. But they're not, so what does that tell you? For example through all this talk of how terrible the bedroom tax is, I'm yet to see one legitimate report from a credible source outlining the struggles of a single person. [...]

 

You must have missed these, Moose:

Scroll to 6th paragraph: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/mar/15/bedroom-tax-march-heartless-reform

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/11/22/owen-jones-iain-duncan-smith-question-time_n_2176791.html

http://www.economist.com/blogs/blighty/2013/01/bbcs-growing-up-poor

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/08/duncan-smith-poverty-benefit-sanctions-easterhouse

 

[...] Fact is these people are qualified to decide things like this. People are always saying we should trust these experts then when they give a verdict we don't like we change our view. [...]

 

So, when "experts" (civil servants, consultants etc.) appointed by a Labour government implement policies that you don't like, increasing tax credits or whatever, do you say "we should trust these experts; they are qualified to decide"?! 

 

Who says their benefits are stopped? [...]

 

I appreciate that you were making a specific point, but a lot of people's benefits are being stopped, often on spurious grounds to meet arbitrary targets.

- My mate is PC-literate but has no expertise in programming. The Jobcentre suggested that he apply for a computer programming job for which he was completely unqualified - and stopped his benefit when he didn't apply, even though he'd applied for numerous other, more suitable jobs.

- My nephew had applied for dozens of jobs, but didn't take the right sort of evidence to his interview; rather than give him a couple of days to provide proof, they stopped his benefits for 4 weeks, meaning that he couldn't pay his rent/utilities, had to scrounge money from family to buy food and pay fares to get to job interviews (he's 23 and lives in a flat). Although he's mainly worked since leaving school, if the "no housing benefit under 25" policy applied today, he would effectively be made homeless as nobody in his family could put him up long-term, except on a settee, with massive stress.

 

[...]
I have no idea how but we need to try and disabled numbers down, it's increasing every year and at current rates we won't be able to pay for the genuine cases in 50 years.

 

Part of the problem is that, through medical advances, more people with disabilities or serious health problems are living long lives (often without being employable), where once they'd have never been born alive or would have died young: e.g. more premature babies saved, people with chronic health problems living longer. If that was us or members of our families, wouldn't we think that was a good thing, even if they cannot work? 

 

The problem is it's cyclical and the majority of the kids they showed on that program will follow their parents lead and get **** all qualifications, leave school at 16, get their girlfriend pregnant, try and claim a council house and live off benefits for the rest of their existence. Don't get me wrong there will no doubt be a few good eggs who will actually try and get themselves out of the hell hole and make something better for themselves but the majority is the problem. [...]

 

Disagree with the rest, but your first paragraph (above) is spot on. The problem is that it is costly and time-consuming to address such "cyclical" (I'd say "structural") problems. If the parents are uneducated, long-term unemployed, maybe into drugs or crime, it takes a lot of effort and resources to prevent their kids following the same path - hence all the cash that Labour spent on early years interventions of various sorts. Now, the Tories are shutting such schemes down to cut the deficit. In the long-term, won't that mean that more will fall into the same trap?

 

Too true - but let a poetic young man have a beer........

 

Well said! I'll use that phrase next time I come on here talking crap at 2am!

 

Food vouchers are the way forward. Food vouchers and forced steralisation. [...]

 

It's the scumbag cycle of life, guarantee their parents were scumbags and their kids will grow up to be scum bags.

Either need to wipe out an entire generation of scumbags to break the cycle or sterilise everyone with a below average IQ.

 

A chap named Hitler already tried that policy and it wasn't a great success:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_eugenics#Hitler.27s_views_on_Eugenics

Who knows, though? Maybe the policy could be reapplied - starting with degenerates who can't spell "sterilisation" (or "sterilization", if you prefer)! 

 

Some clarification would be useful, People's Hero... I'd always assumed that your unpleasantness was caused by some deep unhappiness or bitterness, despite you apparently having a great job, family and social life. But are you really just one of these "trolls" that I hear so much about? It's an incomprehensible phenomenon to us oldies, don't you know!

 

Quite a harrowing indictment was that in all the talk of beer, fags, kids, drugs, bedroom tax, asbo and shoplifting etc it didn't once seem to cross their mind to mention going to work ir trying to find it.

 

There was one brief discussion about it early on - the people (can't remember which) said there was no work available locally. Not the whole story, obviously, as no doubt jobs would've been available in other accessible areas....but would they have been competitive candidates for those jobs? The bloke with the lager cans (Fungi?) was pretty unemployable. The shoplifter was intelligent enough to work (he'd learned to make a clever gadget for his shoplifting bag) but seemed too disturbed - witness his reaction to the police. The women and the black bloke with the 50p mobile shop might be employable but how competitive would they be as applicants after ages on the dole, when there are still a lot more unemployed than there are jobs?

 

Helping them to help themselves is the only way to fix it (assuming genocide is still generally frowned upon). [...]

 

Disagree with the rest, but completely agree with this. The problem is, how much help to help themselves do they get? People like that, long-term unemployed, lacking qualifications or social skills and with a range of personality problems or substance abuse issues would need a hell of a lot of rehabilitation. We don't know why they've ended up in that state - maybe future episodes will reveal that. It might be their fault, but might be down to crap parenting, abuse etc. Long-term rehabilitation for work is the only solution, but that won't always work, it takes time and it costs a lot of money - at a time when public money is sorely lacking.....so, looks like the cheaper "solution" of the "stick" is the one on offer. That'll work with a few capable idlers, but not with people as unemployable as some we saw in that programme - so, homelessness or a life of crime it is, then!

 

 

New Year! New Alf! New, snappier posts! 

[Captain...]

Well what about workfare? You can't (that's a general you, not you personally) criticise the govt for forcing people to work and then claim they are not doing enough to force people to work.

 

Job centre workers and civil servants in general don't care. When my sister became a single mother she was told to go on benefits by the people she went to to get a job, other members of my family have been told the same. Thankfully they all got jobs and didn't fall into the trap of welfare dependency.

 

I think we can all agree that the job centre is not fit for purpose, but instead of introducing a fair, means tested system geared around getting people into work, or trained up so they can take the jobs that are out there, it is geared towards rewarding centres for handing out the most sanctions, not to mention cutting funding for the job centre. All measures to reduce benefits by this government have been clueless and short sighted.

[Alf Bentley]

Some interesting stats here regarding the money wasted through benefit fraud:

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-qa-benefit-fraud-perspective/15796

 

Official figures suggest that £2bn is lost through benefit fraud, compared to a total benefits bill of £194.3bn

 

That compares to £32bn lost through tax evasion and avoidance. Why isn't 16 times more attention paid to tax evasion and avoidance than to benefit fraud, I wonder?

 

That £2bn lost to benefit fraud also compares to £12bn in benefit entitlements that goes unclaimed, apparently.

 

Such stats have to be estimates, of course, but are very interesting.

[Rincewind]

Today at a couple of us were given a challenge. To pick any city/town and find a story/news article on homelessness. I googled Carlisle homeless and in the list there were about three stories from the local Cumbrian papers. The stories are out there it is just the national media do not pick up on them. maybe the owners have other things on their minds and don't want to upset the applecart as the saying goes.

One of our team relates his story in the DNO newspaper. He said as a youngster his mother drank and when his father got home from work he joined her. He suffered abuse and ran away from home. He then got on the wrong side of the law and served time. Early on he decided to change. He set up a magazine inside and eventually the other prisoners came to him for help. when released he was given £40. Luckily he had a good parole officer who helped him find accommodation.

He then set up the INO Magazine which deals with prison reform and has presented a hour show on raDNO.

 

One example how with the right support and guidance people can change.

[MooseBreath]

The fact that those benefit fraud stats have to be estimated renders them completely pointless really.

[purpleronnie]

The fact that those benefit fraud stats have to be estimated renders them completely pointless really.

I bet they'd be accurate if labour were in power though.

[Captain...]

The majority of these jobs are in cities, which are very accesible due to public transport.

 

I did not say everything would be right with the world. but out of 2.39 people, and over 550,000 available jobs, I would expect that most of them would be jobs you do not need qualifications for.

 

So you have nothing to support that stat, why would you assume that you would need no qualifications, I'm assuming you also meant to include no experience, that there are no physical barriers or a required skill set such as computer literacy or even C or above in GCSE Maths and English or a drivers license?

 

Typical unskilled blue collar work has been falling for a long time in this country, most "unskilled" jobs require a level of computer literacy that not everyone has, especially considering the majority of claimants are over 45, and don't find it easy to learn, especially those that have been in these blue collar jobs that have disappeared. It is not as simple as saying there are 500,000 jobs out there, and 2 million unemployed so why can't they just take those jobs, it must be because they are lazy.

 

The problem with these kind of programmes, is that people watch them and think it is the norm and that all benefit claimants are like that, when in reality not even those on the programme are actually like that, it is a grotesque and sensationalist depiction of what is a very minor problem in the UK, that is not to say it is not a problem, but the amount of time and effort dedicated  to such small amounts of money is ridiculous.

[purpleronnie]

So you have nothing to support that stat, why would you assume that you would need no qualifications, I'm assuming you also meant to include no experience, that there are no physical barriers or a required skill set such as computer literacy or even C or above in GCSE Maths and English or a drivers license?

 

Typical unskilled blue collar work has been falling for a long time in this country, most "unskilled" jobs require a level of computer literacy that not everyone has, especially considering the majority of claimants are over 45, and don't find it easy to learn, especially those that have been in these blue collar jobs that have disappeared. It is not as simple as saying there are 500,000 jobs out there, and 2 million unemployed so why can't they just take those jobs, it must be because they are lazy.

 

The problem with these kind of programmes, is that people watch them and think it is the norm and that all benefit claimants are like that, when in reality not even those on the programme are actually like that, it is a grotesque and sensationalist depiction of what is a very minor problem in the UK, that is not to say it is not a problem, but the amount of time and effort dedicated  to such small amounts of money is ridiculous.

  why do they think this way though?, but it does seem there are plenty out there who genuinely feel that way.