That has to be it. Pearson needs to go.

[The Doctor]

No offence Doc, but you must have been saying this now for weeks.

It won't wash mate. We may be 'beating ourselves' but until it shows signs of improving, its another non-argument.. yes we are..so why? and what are we going to do about it?

Move the discussion on....

 

Because we've been doing it for weeks. The problem is obvious - lapses in concentration and the wings (not the DM if you're still trying to argue that point - you're wrong, get over it). So long as we keep doing it, I'm going to keep saying it. 

 

It's not a non-argument: it's the identification of the problem and what needs fixing. Until it's fixed, it's just pointing out the obvious, but a nonargument is one that has absolutely no bearing in reality. Like your calls for a DM.

[The Doctor]

I agree with this really, but it isn't good enough. The consistency of our mistakes is staggering.

 

It's worth pointing out that up until the backpass we'd probably edged the game on Saturday.

 

Still, our lack of effective alternative when behind is extremely concerning. Resorting to hoofball every time despite it being an Allardyce side. It's like trying to outpass Barcelona.

 

Our only chance of survival is sorting out this defence. It's hopeless. Defensively not up to it and technically not up to it.

 

True enough - but that we're edging the games until we shoot ourselves in the foot is a sign we're really not far away from being competitive: it's stupidity and a bit of defensive awareness that's costing us: look at the Villa and Man City games: Clark shouldn't be given a free run, nor should Hutton, and to not have a defender on the six yard line, giving Lampard acres of space from a cross is suicidal. It's three awful pieces of defending, and as a result we got 0 points rather than 4. Take it further back to Burnley - falling asleep from a cross, poorly set up to defend from a free-kick, and we dropped 2 points as a result. The defence needs fixing, but if those mistakes are cut out, we'll be right back into the battle again.

[Guest Col city fan]

I agree with this really, but it isn't good enough. The consistency of our mistakes is staggering.

It's worth pointing out that up until the backpass we'd probably edged the game on Saturday.

Still, our lack of effective alternative when behind is extremely concerning. Resorting to hoofball every time despite it being an Allardyce side. It's like trying to outpass Barcelona.

Our only chance of survival is sorting out this defence. It's hopeless. Defensively not up to it and technically not up to it.

All this focussing on the defence is once again, spectacularly missing the point. It's as though, if we get a solid back five we will do amazingly better.

This is effectively saying that our back five are shite. That's really what is being said. Wasa, Morgan, Kasper..no good..they need changing.

So why then have Sunderland, with a centre back pairing of Brown and O'Shea conceded considerably fewer goals than us this season? Even Burnley have! With Shackell and Mee.

I'd say it is partly due to Pantillimon being excellent. Much better than Schmeichel. And actually Shackell is very under-rated. But its also because of how they set up...... they are better defensively right across their teams. We can't defend as a unit for shit. That's why we have now, I think, the worst defensive record in the Prem? (Might be QPR). We don't keep the ball well enough, we don't cover well enough, we don't track back well enough AND we don't have a particularly good defence. Defending is a team game. It starts from the front. Defensively, the team is all over the place.

To miss this point is to again miss THE point.

IMO.

[nettle]

All this focussing on the defence is once again, spectacularly missing the point. It's as though, if we get a solid back five we will do amazingly better.

This is effectively saying that our back five are shite. That's really what is being said. Wasa, Morgan, Kasper..no good..they need changing.

So why then have Sunderland, with a centre back pairing of Brown and O'Shea conceded considerably fewer goals than us this season? Even Burnley have! With Shackell and Mee.

I'd say it is partly due to Pantillimon being excellent. Much better than Schmeichel. And actually Shackell is very under-rated. But its also because of how they set up...... they are better defensively right across their teams. We can't defend as a unit for shit. That's why we have now, I think, the worst defensive record in the Prem? (Might be QPR). We don't keep the ball well enough, we don't cover well enough, we don't track back well enough AND we don't have a particularly good defence. Defending is a team game. It starts from the front. Defensively, the team is all over the place.

To miss this point is to again miss THE point.

IMO.

They've obviously got more tactically aware managers!

[Fox92]

It's all ifs and buts though, and ultimately that's not good enough. As Dan said, the consistency of our mistakes is staggering and it is scary to see. I'm not bothered about the margins of defeats, because it's still a defeat, but we don't even get the simple stuff right. Players don't seem to want to retain the ball, players don't seem to want to shoot and our zonal marking is appalling.

 

Three or four times on Saturday, Schlupp and Simpson ended up marking Carroll. I mean, what's the point really if we can't even get the basics right. We kicked off first half on Saturday, the ball got played to Konchesky and instead of just keeping the ball he plays a stupid ball out of play gifting West Ham possession. I see this most games. Players like Drinkwater, James, King, Cambiasso etc are good at holding the ball yet we don't do it anymore. Likewise, the players don't want to shoot either. We all saw what Downing did against us, what Gerrard did against us and how Baines' shot led to a goal. Worst of all is playing long balls and crosses when we have Vardy up front alone, he's not going to win anything. I want to see Ulloa and Vardy up front together, starting on Boxing Day. Why can't we cause the opposition problems!? I watched MOTD on Saturday night and Burnley went to White Hart Lane with two strikers. Ok, Barnes probably did play behind Ings but there's no reason why Ulloa and Vardy can't do that. At least with Ulloa we'd then have someone to aim at.

 

We're all managers (as the saying goes), we all have different opinions but the basics have to be intact first.

[The Doctor]

All this focussing on the defence is once again, spectacularly missing the point. It's as though, if we get a solid back five we will do amazingly better.

This is effectively saying that our back five are shite. That's really what is being said. Wasa, Morgan, Kasper..no good..they need changing.

So why then have Sunderland, with a centre back pairing of Brown and O'Shea conceded considerably fewer goals than us this season? Even Burnley have! With Shackell and Mee.

I'd say it is partly due to Pantillimon being excellent. Much better than Schmeichel. And actually Shackell is very under-rated. But its also because of how they set up...... they are better defensively right across their teams. We can't defend as a unit for shit. That's why we have now, I think, the worst defensive record in the Prem? (Might be QPR). We don't keep the ball well enough, we don't cover well enough, we don't track back well enough AND we don't have a particularly good defence. Defending is a team game. It starts from the front. Defensively, the team is all over the place.

To miss this point is to again miss THE point.

IMO.

 

O'Shea and Brown may not be the best defenders, but both are title-winning with years of premiership experience - to compare them to Wasyl (12 months in English football) and Wes (Never played at this level) and suggest that the rest of the team is the problem rather than the severe lack of experience compared to Sunderlands defence is absurd, and clearly a thinly veiled attempt to claim that you're right about needing a DM.

[BigMicky]

It's all ifs and buts though, and ultimately that's not good enough. As Dan said, the consistency of our mistakes is staggering and it is scary to see. I'm not bothered about the margins of defeats, because it's still a defeat, but we don't even get the simple stuff right. Players don't seem to want to retain the ball, players don't seem to want to shoot and our zonal marking is appalling.

Three or four times on Saturday, Schlupp and Simpson ended up marking Carroll. I mean, what's the point really if we can't even get the basics right. We kicked off first half on Saturday, the ball got played to Konchesky and instead of just keeping the ball he plays a stupid ball out of play gifting West Ham possession. I see this most games. Players like Drinkwater, James, King, Cambiasso etc are good at holding the ball yet we don't do it anymore. Likewise, the players don't want to shoot either. We all saw what Downing did against us, what Gerrard did against us and how Baines' shot led to a goal. Worst of all is playing long balls and crosses when we have Vardy up front alone, he's not going to win anything. I want to see Ulloa and Vardy up front together, starting on Boxing Day. Why can't we cause the opposition problems!? I watched MOTD on Saturday night and Burnley went to White Hart Lane with two strikers. Ok, Barnes probably did play behind Ings but there's no reason why Ulloa and Vardy can't do that. At least with Ulloa we'd then have someone to aim at.

We're all managers (as the saying goes), we all have different opinions but the basics have to be intact first.

That zonal marking cost us how many goals against west ham? Do you understand what zonal defending is? Vardy and Simpson were used to impeed Carroll and not allow a free run on a cross, in essence allowing our zonal defenders to clear more easily. It worked. How did Burnley get on?

[BigMicky]

O'Shea and Brown may not be the best defenders, but both are title-winning with years of premiership experience - to compare them to Wasyl (12 months in English football) and Wes (Never played at this level) and suggest that the rest of the team is the problem rather than the severe lack of experience compared to Sunderlands defence is absurd, and clearly a thinly veiled attempt to claim that you're right about needing a DM.

Agree 100% Brown and O'Shea are generally solid centre backs that organise and read the game well with vast experience. The folk that call them @hite and what not really don't have a clue.

[Fox92]

That zonal marking cost us how many goals against west ham? Do you understand what zonal defending is? Vardy and Simpson were used to impeed Carroll and not allow a free run on a cross, in essence allowing our zonal defenders to clear more easily. It worked. How did Burnley get on?

 

It cost us no goals against West Ham but it caused us problems. One or two times Carroll and Tomkins would the first header and the ball bounced along the six yard box... Burnley lost, that wasn't my point, they went to Tottenham with two strikers which is something we should do. Got absolutely no hope if our plan is to launch the ball to Vardy all game.

[BigMicky]

It cost us no goals against West Ham but it caused us problems. One or two times Carroll and Tomkins would the first header and the ball bounced along the six yard box... Burnley lost, that wasn't my point, they went to Tottenham with two strikers which is something we should do. Got absolutely no hope if our plan is to launch the ball to Vardy all game.

So take away a silly error and a world class finish and it ends a draw. Fine lines.......

[Guest Col city fan]

O'Shea and Brown may not be the best defenders, but both are title-winning with years of premiership experience - to compare them to Wasyl (12 months in English football) and Wes (Never played at this level) and suggest that the rest of the team is the problem rather than the severe lack of experience compared to Sunderlands defence is absurd, and clearly a thinly veiled attempt to claim that you're right about needing a DM.

Are you still trying to insult? I thought we were past that?

I'm simply stating that to lay the sole blame on our back five is daft. The problem of conceding goals in any side does not lay exclusively with a defence.

And lets have it right...either people think Wes Brown and O'Shea are awful or they don't! Plenty were laughing at them just a few weeks ago. Or has that changed as well now? Now, I assume, they aren't bad after all?? Yes...

Christ, how the wind changes on here..

[cjslcfc]

It cost us no goals against West Ham but it caused us problems. One or two times Carroll and Tomkins would the first header and the ball bounced along the six yard box... Burnley lost, that wasn't my point, they went to Tottenham with two strikers which is something we should do. Got absolutely no hope if our plan is to launch the ball to Vardy all game.

 

The thing is, I don't think that is the plan at all. Our players are just so hopelessly low on confidence that the easiest thing for defenders to do is just smash it upfield. Konchesky is the worst culprit for it. I've mentioned it before but there's a pattern to the play which happens too often for it to be accidental. Teams seem to press us so that when we are passing it around the defence it is forced towards Konchesky who then, under pressure and only a few options, decides it is best to chip it forward. We then lose the ball if Vardy is up front and we continue to pile pressure on ourselves. Konchesky isn't the only one but he is the one who does it the most. 

[filbertway]

The thing is, I don't think that is the plan at all. Our players defenders are just so hopelessly low on confidence footballing ability that the easiest thing for defenders to do is just smash it upfield. Konchesky is the worst culprit for it. I've mentioned it before but there's a pattern to the play which happens too often for it to be accidental. Teams seem to press us so that when we are passing it around the defence it is forced towards Konchesky who then, under pressure and only a few options, decides it is best to chip it forward. We then lose the ball if Vardy is up front and we continue to pile pressure on ourselves. Konchesky isn't the only one but he is the one who does it the most. 

 

Fixed!

[Dickov22]

STOP with that damn phrase. PLEASE. It's a total sh*t phrase.

I'll say what I like. It's true. They were nowhere near at their best. They didn't need to be. Nor would I expect them to be, because they're Man City and have spent millions. Of course they're going to beat us. But for fans to say it was a close game and 'those Man City players knew they'd been in a game' etc etc is wide of the mark. We didn't register a shot on target!

[BigMicky]

The thing is, I don't think that is the plan at all. Our players are just so hopelessly low on confidence that the easiest thing for defenders to do is just smash it upfield. Konchesky is the worst culprit for it. I've mentioned it before but there's a pattern to the play which happens too often for it to be accidental. Teams seem to press us so that when we are passing it around the defence it is forced towards Konchesky who then, under pressure and only a few options, decides it is best to chip it forward. We then lose the ball if Vardy is up front and we continue to pile pressure on ourselves. Konchesky isn't the only one but he is the one who does it the most.

So is that Koncheskys fault? The amount of times he is played into trouble is staggering but yet he is blamed for it at every opportunity.

[Fox92]

The thing is, I don't think that is the plan at all. Our players are just so hopelessly low on confidence that the easiest thing for defenders to do is just smash it upfield. Konchesky is the worst culprit for it. I've mentioned it before but there's a pattern to the play which happens too often for it to be accidental. Teams seem to press us so that when we are passing it around the defence it is forced towards Konchesky who then, under pressure and only a few options, decides it is best to chip it forward. We then lose the ball if Vardy is up front and we continue to pile pressure on ourselves. Konchesky isn't the only one but he is the one who does it the most. 

 

Yeah, I know what you mean hence I also spoke about keeping the ball. Konchesky does do it alot as I also mentioned, but we should have the confidence to keep the ball. We don't always have to go forward, it's not a computer game. I understand playing one up front away from home, especially at places like West Ham, but if our players are going to do that then the one should just be Ulloa. Or at least Ulloa behind Vardy. 

 

On Saturday, Vardy put in 100% again and chased everything - two times led to a chance - but there's only so much that he can do. When Ulloa was brought on, Vardy went off and although Nugent didn't do anything wrong I'd like to see a Vardy/Ulloa partneship over the next five league games.

[Guest Col city fan]

So is that Koncheskys fault? The amount of times he is played into trouble is staggering but yet he is blamed for it at every opportunity.

I agree with this Micky. There will be no-one more hacked off with the woeful back pass than Konch. Apparently he was getting slated for it at the game by many of 'our own'. But i agree, he's being played into trouble so often that he will make errors. The reason for this is because there is so often no clear out-ball. I think that's why they are hoofing it again. Shame he didnt hoof THAT one into row z though.

[cjslcfc]

I'll say what I like. It's true. They were nowhere near at their best. They didn't need to be. Nor would I expect them to be, because they're Man City and have spent millions. Of course they're going to beat us. But for fans to say it was a close game and 'those Man City players knew they'd been in a game' etc etc is wide of the mark. We didn't register a shot on target!

 

I just think it's an overused phrase that is too easy too throw about when we get beaten. I'm sick of the sight of that phrase.

 

There's a difference between "nowhere near at their best" and "didn't have to get out of 2nd gear". They weren't at their best but part of that was down to our pressure. The amount of balls we intercepted and tackles we made was phenomenal. We reduced them to very few chances. We had one shot on target and they only had four. It was an evenly balanced game. They barely tested Hamer as well. Suggesting they didn't get out of second gear says that they weren't trying very hard to beat us. I'm sure Kompany was thinking the same when he did his hamstring. There have been a couple of occasions when teams have eased off. I'd say Swansea and West Ham are two of them but Man City certainly wasn't and there have been lots of tight games where the same could be said as the Man City game.

[cjslcfc]

So is that Koncheskys fault? The amount of times he is played into trouble is staggering but yet he is blamed for it at every opportunity.

 

It's not always his fault. I think Morgan puts him in trouble far too much. However, Konchesky is his own worst nightmare most of the time. I'm not putting all the blame on him at all. I'm just saying even when he's not under pressure he will give the ball away easily.

[Dan]

True enough - but that we're edging the games until we shoot ourselves in the foot is a sign we're really not far away from being competitive: it's stupidity and a bit of defensive awareness that's costing us: look at the Villa and Man City games: Clark shouldn't be given a free run, nor should Hutton, and to not have a defender on the six yard line, giving Lampard acres of space from a cross is suicidal. It's three awful pieces of defending, and as a result we got 0 points rather than 4. Take it further back to Burnley - falling asleep from a cross, poorly set up to defend from a free-kick, and we dropped 2 points as a result. The defence needs fixing, but if those mistakes are cut out, we'll be right back into the battle again.

 

When it happens occasionally, I agree there's no real reason to worry - but it's happening nearly every game. Our defence will either collectively switch off or one of them will absolutely gift a goal away. It's far too regular an occurrence.

 

Defence is only part of the problem, but it's the biggest one. Our lack of ideas when behind is pitiful. We rely on teams making mistakes that only sides like us or QPR will make. We don't have enough quality to collectively open teams up with quality like others can do.

 

All this focussing on the defence is once again, spectacularly missing the point. It's as though, if we get a solid back five we will do amazingly better.

This is effectively saying that our back five are shite. That's really what is being said. Wasa, Morgan, Kasper..no good..they need changing.

So why then have Sunderland, with a centre back pairing of Brown and O'Shea conceded considerably fewer goals than us this season? Even Burnley have! With Shackell and Mee.

I'd say it is partly due to Pantillimon being excellent. Much better than Schmeichel. And actually Shackell is very under-rated. But its also because of how they set up...... they are better defensively right across their teams. We can't defend as a unit for shit. That's why we have now, I think, the worst defensive record in the Prem? (Might be QPR). We don't keep the ball well enough, we don't cover well enough, we don't track back well enough AND we don't have a particularly good defence. Defending is a team game. It starts from the front. Defensively, the team is all over the place.

To miss this point is to again miss THE point.

IMO.

 

Because Brown, O'Shea and Shackell. are better than Morgan and Wasilewski.

 

When our midfield stop being bypassed and they're given some freedom to create, then they will start delivering more, we will create more and score more goals, relieving pressure off the defence in the first place.

[BigMicky]

I agree with this Micky. There will be no-one more hacked off with the woeful back pass than Konch. Apparently he was getting slated for it at the game by many of 'our own'. But i agree, he's being played into trouble so often that he will make errors. The reason for this is because there is so often no clear out-ball. I think that's why they are hoofing it again. Shame he didnt hoof THAT one into row z though.

Spot on, it's strange as we don't appear to play our right backs into trouble, they often appear to have more time and space to play. I suppose its easier for our right footed defenders to pass it along the line. I really feel for Konchesky, he always gives 100% and just gets on with hit. The guy deserves support not slating he has earnt that.

[BigMicky]

It's not always his fault. I think Morgan puts him in trouble far too much. However, Konchesky is his own worst nightmare most of the time. I'm not putting all the blame on him at all. I'm just saying even when he's not under pressure he will give the ball away easily.

That's a bit of a myth though, he really doesn't give the ball away all that much. Have a look at his options next time you are at a game, they are usually limited.

[BigMicky]

I just think it's an overused phrase that is too easy too throw about when we get beaten. I'm sick of the sight of that phrase.

There's a difference between "nowhere near at their best" and "didn't have to get out of 2nd gear". They weren't at their best but part of that was down to our pressure. The amount of balls we intercepted and tackles we made was phenomenal. We reduced them to very few chances. We had one shot on target and they only had four. It was an evenly balanced game. They barely tested Hamer as well. Suggesting they didn't get out of second gear says that they weren't trying very hard to beat us. I'm sure Kompany was thinking the same when he did his hamstring. There have been a couple of occasions when teams have eased off. I'd say Swansea and West Ham are two of them but Man City certainly wasn't and there have been lots of tight games where the same could be said as the Man City game.

Great post.

[Dickov22]

Aye. It may be all ifs, buts and maybes, but in all of the last 5 defeats, we've been into a good position and let the opposition in with momentary lapses of concentration: A bit of sense against QPR and Villa, and we'd be right in the mixer. We aren't far off at all - we've been holding our own in matches, then shooting ourselves in the foot - we're beating ourselves more than the opposing team are.

Villa could have won that game 6-1. They were all over us for most of the game.

[Dickov22]

I just think it's an overused phrase that is too easy too throw about when we get beaten. I'm sick of the sight of that phrase.

 

There's a difference between "nowhere near at their best" and "didn't have to get out of 2nd gear". They weren't at their best but part of that was down to our pressure. The amount of balls we intercepted and tackles we made was phenomenal. We reduced them to very few chances. We had one shot on target and they only had four. It was an evenly balanced game. They barely tested Hamer as well. Suggesting they didn't get out of second gear says that they weren't trying very hard to beat us. I'm sure Kompany was thinking the same when he did his hamstring. There have been a couple of occasions when teams have eased off. I'd say Swansea and West Ham are two of them but Man City certainly wasn't and there have been lots of tight games where the same could be said as the Man City game.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree, because I thought the game at our place will be the easiest game Man City have had all season. You could look at their game against Palace on Saturday, see they won 3-0 and that may appear as though it was more comfortable than the 1-0 win here. Not the case. Palace had a goal disallowed, plenty of shots on target and plenty of possession. I dont remember us even having one shot on target as you mention above? We had that flaoty header from about 15 yards out that Joe Hart caught. That's the only one on target I remember. They beat us easily, and didn't have to play well to do so. We were never in it, never looked like scoring.

 

Games where teams have comfortably won  in my opinion:

Liverpool

Man City

Swansea

Southampton

Villa

 

Where we deserved something:

 

QPR

WBA - still convinced our best starting 11 eg width would have won this game easily. WBA are the worst side I've seen this season.

 

As I stated earlier, I can't understand our inability to even snatch a draw here and there. We just lose every game pretty much, and it annoys me that our supporters are accepting it and suggesting it is fine margins and that we arent far off. We are miles off in my opinion.