C-man Posted 6 March 2015 Share Posted 6 March 2015 Everyone knows if you do this you're going to have to pay the consequences, can't have any sympathy for anyone who would do it knowing full well what could happen. Punishment fits the crime. Only been 'inside' one these once and that was at West Ham away, when some git let it off while we were losing 1 - 0. By the time the smoke was gone, it was 2 - 0 and I missed the goal - made us look pathetic. The punishment does NOT fit the crime. It is way OTT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ADK Posted 6 March 2015 Share Posted 6 March 2015 It costs tax payers money to convict and enforce these banning orders and I'd rather it was spent on something useful. Didn't one of our players say the smoke looked good or did I imagine that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-man Posted 6 March 2015 Share Posted 6 March 2015 It costs tax payers money to convict and enforce these banning orders and I'd rather it was spent on something useful. Didn't one of our players say the smoke looked good or did I imagine that? Ben Hamer tweeted that he was a legend or words to that effect. No amount of banning orders or prison sentences are going to stop pyro entirely. Therefore in an ideal world, clubs, police, stewards and fans would liaise to ensure that they are used in a controlled manner where the fans can safely hold the device without fear of being prosecuted. At the moment we're at a point where individuals hold the device (ironically safer than dropping them) and they get given a stadium ban OR they drop it it with no regard to their surroundings - effectively trapping the smoke in an enclosed area between seats, which isn't particularly good for anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Prussian Posted 6 March 2015 Share Posted 6 March 2015 Ben Hamer tweeted that he was a legend or words to that effect. No amount of banning orders or prison sentences are going to stop pyro entirely. Therefore in an ideal world, clubs, police, stewards and fans would liaise to ensure that they are used in a controlled manner where the fans can safely hold the device without fear of being prosecuted. At the moment we're at a point where individuals hold the device (ironically safer than dropping them) and they get given a stadium ban OR they drop it it with no regard to their surroundings - effectively trapping the smoke in an enclosed area between seats, which isn't particularly good for anyone. That could all be avoided if people didn't take any smoke bombs (or even worse, flares) with them to football matches - at least with the current stadium setup, it almost always causes bodily harm (no matter to what extent). Not always, but you only need one incident where things go horribly wrong and you've got yourself a case in point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndWhat? Posted 6 March 2015 Share Posted 6 March 2015 That could all be avoided if people didn't take any smoke bombs (or even worse, flares) with them to football matches - at least with the current stadium setup, it almost always causes bodily harm (no matter to what extent). Not always, but you only need one incident where things go horribly wrong and you've got yourself a case in point. Not sure if I have interpreted that wrong, but when has a smoke bomb or a flare ever caused bodily harm in the UK? And I don't want an article posted from South America from 1997 please. I bet we could find articles from other countries where people have slipped on an empty packet of crisps at a ground and died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndWhat? Posted 6 March 2015 Share Posted 6 March 2015 Bins have caused more deaths at UK grounds than pyrotechnics When we gonna ban them? http://www.theguardian.com/football/2011/apr/07/death-by-misadventure-blackburn-fan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babylon Posted 6 March 2015 Share Posted 6 March 2015 Not sure if I have interpreted that wrong, but when has a smoke bomb or a flare ever caused bodily harm in the UK? Not a football ground... but. http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Kasabian-fan-furious-rogue-flare-gives-second/story-21302578-detail/story.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babylon Posted 6 March 2015 Share Posted 6 March 2015 Bins have caused more deaths at UK grounds than pyrotechnics When we gonna ban them? http://www.theguardian.com/football/2011/apr/07/death-by-misadventure-blackburn-fan Any object can cause injury when chucked about by idiots. Bins are necessary if you don't want to be wading through a tonne of rubbish at the ground, flares etc serve no real purpose other than a few little kids going "ooooh a bit of smoke, how ultra". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndWhat? Posted 6 March 2015 Share Posted 6 March 2015 Not a football ground... but. http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Kasabian-fan-furious-rogue-flare-gives-second/story-21302578-detail/story.html A crowd at a gig could not be further from a modern crowd at a football ground. Moot point. EDIT: Just realised I missed out 'at the football' in my first post, apologies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bellend Sebastian Posted 6 March 2015 Share Posted 6 March 2015 Always enjoyed lights and colours Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babylon Posted 6 March 2015 Share Posted 6 March 2015 A crowd at a gig could not be further from a modern crowd at a football ground. Moot point. EDIT: Just realised I missed out 'at the football' in my first post, apologies Is it that much different? There was a lot of group lad mentality going on at that gig that you'd get at football. I know it looked very similar to the pic' in your sig. People enjoying themselves, having a laugh, jumping around... then someone does something stupid. That's why they will never be allowed, it's just another thing that someone will no doubt do something stupid with at some point and the people running it just don't want them in the equation. If they gave people rope and said you know what it's fine to have them and it's fine to chuck them about the incidents are likely to increase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndWhat? Posted 6 March 2015 Share Posted 6 March 2015 Is it that much different? There was a lot of group lad mentality going on at that gig that you'd get at football. I know it looked very similar to the pic' in your sig. People enjoying themselves, having a laugh, jumping around... then someone does something stupid. That's why they will never be allowed, it's just another thing that someone will no doubt do something stupid with at some point and the people running it just don't want them in the equation. If they gave people rope and said you know what it's fine to have them and it's fine to chuck them about the incidents are likely to increase. The front section of the Kasabian gig was probably similar to terraces at the football back in the 70's and 80's nothing like standing in a modern all seater stadiums today. Anyone who was in that front section will say the same. Flares would be perfectly safe at the football if you didn't chuck them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Prussian Posted 6 March 2015 Share Posted 6 March 2015 Not sure if I have interpreted that wrong, but when has a smoke bomb or a flare ever caused bodily harm in the UK? And I don't want an article posted from South America from 1997 please. I bet we could find articles from other countries where people have slipped on an empty packet of crisps at a ground and died. That's a non-argument. Even if I could find you a news report from an incident involving a flare or a smoke bomb, it has no bearing on the potential danger of such an item used at a football match in the (near) future. The front section of the Kasabian gig was probably similar to terraces at the football back in the 70's and 80's nothing like standing in a modern all seater stadiums today. Anyone who was in that front section will say the same. Flares would be perfectly safe at the football if you didn't chuck them! You're skating on rather thin ice here. Flares or smoke bombs per se aren't dangerous, but in the hands of an idiot they more than likely are. Otherwise, you'd have to a) instruct football fans correctly about the handling - which won't last long because not everyone is smart enough to remember on a matchday and not everyone remains sober to think clearly b) make sure that the flares or smoke bombs used would have to be super-safe. This isn't the case, because you'll always get some that have been tampered with, that have been poorly manufactured or built at home based on some dodgy instructions - and that just isn't reassuring at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babylon Posted 6 March 2015 Share Posted 6 March 2015 Flares would be perfectly safe at the football if you didn't chuck them! Can you hand on heart say nobody is going to though, that's the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndWhat? Posted 6 March 2015 Share Posted 6 March 2015 That's a non-argument. Even if I could find you a news report from an incident involving a flare or a smoke bomb, it has no bearing on the potential danger of such an item used at a football match in the (near) future. You're skating on rather thin ice here. Flares or smoke bombs per se aren't dangerous, but in the hands of an idiot they more than likely are. Otherwise, you'd have to a) instruct football fans correctly about the handling - which won't last long because not everyone is smart enough to remember on a matchday and not everyone remains sober to think clearly b) make sure that the flares or smoke bombs used would have to be super-safe. This isn't the case, because you'll always get some that have been tampered with, that have been poorly manufactured or built at home based on some dodgy instructions - and that just isn't reassuring at all. Can you hand on heart say nobody is going to though, that's the problem. Cars can be dangerous in the hands of idiots.... We should punish the idiots that throw them, like this guy, which although I think the punishment is a bit harsh, he deserved a ban. I never in a million years think pyro will be legalised and controlled in this country, so things like this are going to continue to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxmeister Posted 6 March 2015 Share Posted 6 March 2015 I like this idea. Bit like another debate in football I suppose. If you give people the choice of whether they want to stand or not to stand, to experience smoke bombs or not to experience smoke bombs then everyone gets what they want. Health & Safety concerns would be eliminated if people were allowed to judge the risk for themselves. Yeah and we could have an area of the ground where supporters of both sides can go for a bloody good punch up, along with a special singing and or smoking section already suggested as well as family and corporate areas we already have. God knows where you sit if you're a hard nut, pyromaniac, advertising director, who's a father of 2 and a chain smoker. Christ we'll have more sections that seats soon, you'll have to take a personality test just to get a ticket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Prussian Posted 6 March 2015 Share Posted 6 March 2015 Cars can be dangerous in the hands of idiots.... We should punish the idiots that throw them, like this guy, which although I think the punishment is a bit harsh, he deserved a ban. I never in a million years think pyro will be legalised and controlled in this country, so things like this are going to continue to happen. Yeah, but you don't bring your car to a football match, do you? Incidents like this will also continue to happen as long as a portion of the football fanbase trivialises the use of flares or smoke bombs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry - LCFC Posted 6 March 2015 Share Posted 6 March 2015 Yeah and we could have an area of the ground where supporters of both sides can go for a bloody good punch up, along with a special singing and or smoking section already suggested as well as family and corporate areas we already have. God knows where you sit if you're a hard nut, pyromaniac, advertising director, who's a father of 2 and a chain smoker. Christ we'll have more sections that seats soon, you'll have to take a personality test just to get a ticket. You seem to be dishonestly twisting my argument into something it's not. We would not be overloaded with sections and 'tests' (you pick where you want to go after all) we would have three specialised sections - corporate, family, stand & smoke. Giving people the choice of where they want to go means everyone's likely to be better off. Leave aside the slippery slope fallacies when you respond - no more mentions of punch ups and having several sections, thanks. Stick to what's actually being proposed, not what you find easier to argue against. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Posted 6 March 2015 Share Posted 6 March 2015 Have sympathy for the lad, he might have got three months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxmeister Posted 6 March 2015 Share Posted 6 March 2015 Not sure if I have interpreted that wrong, but when has a smoke bomb or a flare ever caused bodily harm in the UK? And I don't want an article posted from South America from 1997 please. I bet we could find articles from other countries where people have slipped on an empty packet of crisps at a ground and died. A fan was killed by a firework at Cardiff in the 90s and one reason it's rare is because they are banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxmeister Posted 6 March 2015 Share Posted 6 March 2015 You seem to be dishonestly twisting my argument into something it's not. We would not be overloaded with sections and 'tests' (you pick where you want to go after all) we would have three specialised sections - corporate, family, stand & smoke. Giving people the choice of where they want to go means everyone's likely to be better off. Leave aside the slippery slope fallacies when you respond - no more mentions of punch ups and having several sections, thanks. Stick to what's actually being proposed, not what you find easier to argue against. I was largely having a laugh, however it's worth pointing out that whenever something crops up where some fans are for and some fans are against, somewhere on the 1st 5 pages of the thread a separate section is suggested. In addition the OP regards a specific fan who threw the said smoke bomb quite some distance, making it a potential weapon. With that in mind, unless your Pyro Pen is located outside the Lounge Bar on Saffron Lane there is clearly still a threat to the safety of the other members of a 32000 crowd some of whom will be unable to leg it from danger. To make matters worse you could wander in to the aforementioned Pyro Pen with a surface to air missile, if you wanted to, because there's not much point searching people who are allowed to go in with smoke bombs.That said I would like to suggest a pro Pearson section, anti Pearson section and a 'I wasn't here last season and don't expect to be next' section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaelicFox Posted 6 March 2015 Share Posted 6 March 2015 nope Spiderman I heard Web of lies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 7 March 2015 Share Posted 7 March 2015 Deciding for the hundreds of fans nearby that they should all be subjected to such a device, with no thought for medical conditions, the disabled or nearby children, mean this idiot more than deserves this ban. It's simple, don't bring stuff like this to matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCFCSOULBOY Posted 9 March 2015 Share Posted 9 March 2015 Remember that guy who came on the field and attacked Ian Walker against Villa? He got a ban and missed several woeful years of football. Maybe the fella who threw the smoke bomb knows what's coming... In all seriousness, why would you take a smoke bomb to a football match? Utter numpty. now that is funny...thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freeman's Wharfer Posted 9 March 2015 Share Posted 9 March 2015 The problem is not the objects, the problem is them being thrown. Why are they thrown? Because people can't let them off and then take responsibility for monitoring them because they will be done by the police for accepting responsibility for the flare/smoke bomb. This means they are then thrown because the person setting them off doesn't want to be caught or because they end up near someone who has nothing to do with it and they panic. The law results in the throwing which results in the danger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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