Jimothy Posted 3 June 2010 Posted 3 June 2010 Squad numbers have been announced. No idea if that's any indication to a possible line up for the USA game. 1 David James 2 Glen Johnson 3 Ashley Cole 4 Steven Gerrard 5 Rio Ferdinand 6 John Terry 7 Aaron Lennon 8 Frank Lampard 9 Peter Crouch 10 Wayne Rooney 11 Joe Cole 12 Robert Green 13 Stephen Warnock 14 Gareth Barry 15 Matthew Upson 16 James Milner 17 Shaun Wright-Phillips 18 Jamie Carragher 19 Jermain Defoe 20 Ledley King 21 Emile Heskey 22 Michael Carrick 23 Joe Hart
shen Posted 3 June 2010 Posted 3 June 2010 The politics (in the widest sense) that surround football teams / squads on these occasions are complex, picking groups of players from your top clubs is more than just some odd quota system, it makes a lot of sense both on and off the pitch. In the main, top managers, particularly european ones, revere experience and chose their players accordingly, so Joe Cole, Carrick, Upson and Carragher are in, Adam Johnson, Parker, Huddleston and Dawson are out, obvious really. Is it so obvious? Mr Lippi, Mr Domenech, Mr Del Bosque and Mr Löw seem to think otherwise. Eight of Mr Lippis 23 players have less than ten caps, and a total of 12 have less than 20 caps. The average age of those players: 26,3. No Toni, no Perotta, no Toldo, no Totti! To contend the point about coaches selecting players from top clubs, Lippi picked FIVE players from Juventus alone (EIGHT in the preliminary squad) and only ONE player from Roma and Inter (although the choices here are limited) combined, and that doesn't even include the most iconic Italian player of this decade! Mr Domenech selects seven players with ten caps or less, with a total of 12 players with twenty caps or less. Average age of those players: 25,8. He left out the more experienced and most expensive French player in history and also his preferred captain option and undoubtedly iconic Vieira. Mr Del Bosque has picked six players with ten caps or less and a total of ten players with 20 caps or less. Average age of those players: 24. He's left out the country's top goal scorer and second-most capped Spanish still active player (Raul) and many people's Euro 2008 player of the tournament (Senna). Not to mention Euro 2008 success story Guïza and one of Spain's jokers in Cazorla. Mr Löw, although admittedly being forced into some involuntary omissions (Ballack, Rolfes and Adler most notably), has selected a staggering 13 players with ten caps or less, plus one player on 11 caps! Average age of those players: 24. Lehmann and Hitzlsperger are the most notable omissions in that squad, apart from the injured certainties. Even the notoriously conservative Otto Rehhagel has selected seven players with ten caps or less, and 11 in total with less than 20 caps. Two of those players haven't even made their debut yet either! Average age of those players: 25,5. ----- In contrast, the England team has just FOUR players with ten caps or less, and a total of just seven players with twenty caps or less. Average age of those players: 26,8. So even the 'inexperienced' players are older than their main European rivals. Gary Neville is the highest profile player missing (not counting the injured Beckham). ----- Those stats don't quite match your statement that experience 'obviously' wins over inexperience
The Doctor Posted 3 June 2010 Posted 3 June 2010 Eight of Mr Lippis 23 players have less than ten caps, and a total of 12 have less than 20 caps. The average age of those players: 26,3. No Toni, no Perotta, no Toldo, no Totti! To contend the point about coaches selecting players from top clubs, Lippi picked FIVE players from Juventus alone (EIGHT in the preliminary squad) and only ONE player from Roma and Inter (although the choices here are limited) combined, and that doesn't even include the most iconic Italian player of this decade! Mr Domenech selects seven players with ten caps or less, with a total of 12 players with twenty caps or less. Average age of those players: 25,8. He left out the more experienced and most expensive French player in history and also his preferred captain option and undoubtedly iconic Vieira. so players who not only have some experience at playing football (for club if not for their country) but are also at the age which is widely believed to be that at which a player plays best: 26-29. As for you comments about Toni, Perotta, Toldo, Totti, Benzema & Vieira missing out, could that be because Toni & Benzema have been misfiring this year, Toldo is about 38 now and surely about ready to retire, Totti has never produced at international level and Vieira has only really played about half a season of football.
marbelladave Posted 3 June 2010 Posted 3 June 2010 Shen - Superb post, perhaps I should have done a bit more homework!... I could say that the 'obvous' comment referred to Capello's thinking but suggesting that would be only half true. However the most important point that your post brings up is why on earth have we, (England) failed to bring forward young players in the way that many of our european competitors have done? We are going into our first group match with substantially the same side that played in 2006, just two of our probable starters next week did not start games in Germany. FFS it's not as if we actually won the bloody thing!
dandannieldanok Posted 3 June 2010 Posted 3 June 2010 Delighted that Crouch has bagged the number 9 shirt.
Alexikokopops Posted 3 June 2010 Posted 3 June 2010 Chandler, is that you? Have you returned as a new poster? Do a search for the word Anusfield and have a look at the only two posters who have used it. That'll answer the question
shen Posted 3 June 2010 Posted 3 June 2010 so players who not only have some experience at playing football (for club if not for their country) but are also at the age which is widely believed to be that at which a player plays best: 26-29. As for you comments about Toni, Perotta, Toldo, Totti, Benzema & Vieira missing out, could that be because Toni & Benzema have been misfiring this year, Toldo is about 38 now and surely about ready to retire, Totti has never produced at international level and Vieira has only really played about half a season of football. The point about the average age (in conjunction with number of caps) is that experience IS NOT consistently preferred over form or inexperience. You conveniently leave out the average ages of those inexperienced players from Spain and Germany, and also fail to address that ALL those countries have considerably more inexperienced players in their final squad than England. All but Spain have more than 50 % inexperienced players! It shows that these coaches also think about the future and about form when selecting their squads. Toni has had a very fine start at Roma, and his quality is still undisputed, so he's not exactly 'misfiring' He would've been a serious candidate for selection, but Lippi has sent out a signal of intent here. What about Perotta, whom you failed to address? Toldo is at the end of his career, yes, but he's still Inter's first reserve. That he's not selected just proves once more that Italy have some world class keepers at their disposal. James isn't exactly a spring chicken either, but I don't hear people talking about his pending retirement... And Totti never produced at international level? No, he's only won the World Cup with Italy and was selected in the World Cup All Star team and was named MOTM in the final against France at the 2000 Euro's The doubts over Vieira's fitness are well-documented, but with Diarra losing out through injury, surely some would argue Vieira should have deputised. He's the only available player apart from Henry (and Anelka partially) from the WC '98 and Euro 2000 success campaigns and to say he has been influential in the French NT over the past 15 years would be an understatement. That leaves Benzema who has had a difficult year at Madrid admittedly, but he's still considered a class attacker at international level. Again, the fact he's not selected should be another proof that experience is not the favoured criteria of national team managers!
breadandcheese Posted 3 June 2010 Posted 3 June 2010 Do a search for the word Anusfield and have a look at the only two posters who have used it. That'll answer the question That is brilliant. You are a proper detective
Guest ttfn Posted 3 June 2010 Posted 3 June 2010 I was going to point out that fffn's post was hopelessly optimistic but I am more concerned with other matters. Such as the 'revelation' in the cribbed post above that England are going into the first group game with virtually the same XI who played in 2006 under Sven. Just 2 outfield changes and one of those only occurred because goldenballs tripped over his image rights and broke something. In 4 whole years we have progressed from the 'Golden Generation' in its prime to the 'Well past it's sell by date Generation'. I think it was Einstein who pointed out that repeatedly doing the same thing, in the same way, and expecting different results is the sign of madness. (Or maybe stupidity.) On reflection the stupidity belongs to the fans who actually believe that the same bunch of over rated, over the hill losers can actually do better than last time. Even more worrying is the apparent re-emergence of player power blocking non 'G.G.' members to the English team. Could this be the real reason non members such as Walcott, Parker, Dawson, Johnson and the rest were left out whilst founder member, David Beckham, is going as some sort of non playing captain? Player power fooked us last time in Germany and will most likely do so again later this month. For a time, about 12 months, ago I though Capello might have had this under control but no I was wrong! PPS Will the person who pissed in my cornflakes this morning please own up to save the cyberworld from more of my ranting. Thank you. I'm sorry but all this conjecture about player power and Walcott not being picked because he was disliked is total arse. Walcott was left out because he's had a poor season. I wouldn't have left him out personally, but there's enough reasons to omit him not to resort to wild conspiracy theories. Parker is one of the most over-rated footballers in the country. Sure, he was playing well at the end of last season, but you could have put a steaming turd in the centre of the West Ham midfield last year and it would have looked good. England need to be dictating games at this level, and Carrick, poor season that he's had, still gives us a better option than Parker. I'll agree that Dawson should have gone over Upson, but I can't imagine that had anything to do with the players. Not quite sure how I'm being 'hopelessly' optimistic. I've presented facts, and an opinion based on them. In fact, I explicitly stated that we shouldn't expect any dazzling England performances. But a semi-finals berth is ours to lose, thanks to the draw and the poor form of many (not just England) of the sides of the tournament. Then again, it's England, so we'll find a way of going out on pens.
Fosse Fox Posted 3 June 2010 Posted 3 June 2010 I'm sorry but all this conjecture about player power and Walcott not being picked because he was disliked is total arse. Walcott was left out because he's had a poor season. I wouldn't have left him out personally, but there's enough reasons to omit him not to resort to wild conspiracy theories. Parker is one of the most over-rated footballers in the country. Sure, he was playing well at the end of last season, but you could have put a steaming turd in the centre of the West Ham midfield last year and it would have looked good. England need to be dictating games at this level, and Carrick, poor season that he's had, still gives us a better option than Parker. I'll agree that Dawson should have gone over Upson, but I can't imagine that had anything to do with the players. Not quite sure how I'm being 'hopelessly' optimistic. I've presented facts, and an opinion based on them. In fact, I explicitly stated that we shouldn't expect any dazzling England performances. But a semi-finals berth is ours to lose, thanks to the draw and the poor form of many (not just England) of the sides of the tournament.Then again, it's England, so we'll find a way of going out on pens. So, Walcott is excluded because he's had a 'poor' season whilst Carrick is included despite having had a poor season. If you'd been awake during your logic seminar you'd realise you'd just done an RAA (reductio ad absurdum). Your mitigating proposition for Carrick's selection 'a better option than Parker' infers that this was the only choice open to Capello. What about, say, Carrick Vs The Hud? I won't go into all the other option headaches that flew under the radar. Poor young Theo doesn't get a mitigating proposition from you at all, of course so can I give one? How about er coming of the bench with half an hour to go, ripping apart the best team in the world, retrieving a 0-2 deficit and scoring in the process? Many players would die for a 'poor season' like Walcott's. Let's move on... So, a semi final berth is our's to lose eh? Why not make that the World Cup is ours to lose (just as it is New Zealand's)? Well, I can tell you reasonably confidently that far more modest targets might be beyond England's reach. And that is not because England's current form is poor (which by their own modest standards it is not) it is because England cannot beat a good side 'on the road' when it matters. Do you know that it took 36 years for England to win their first overseas World Cup knock out match? Now look very closely at the following sides: Paraguay, Belgium, Cameroon, Denmark and Ecuador. Hardly top of the FIFA charts are they? But they are the only sides that England have ever beaten in the knock out phase of a foreign hosted World Cup. But of course, everything is 'ours' to lose' playing 'poorly' because of the poor form of others. Now who, pray, exactly are these 'others' undergoing such a footballing crisis? For example are any of the teams ranked above us having such a profound off period that we could edge past them whilst playing poorly? You don't have Argentina in mind by any chance? That bastion of no marks like Tevez, Melito and oh yes, that Barca freak who, on an average day, would rip our guts out? ttfn this post, along with many of your others is illogical, vague and completely deluded. Like all insular England fans you massively overestimate England's capabilities mainly by ignoring their appalling tournament record and by allowing yourself to be taken in by media hype that is based more on players' earning power rather than their true footballing worth. And if this is not bad enough you completely underestimate the ability of the forces ranged against us. But there again, history is littered with buffoons who make that basic error - in fact that is what history is about.
The Doctor Posted 3 June 2010 Posted 3 June 2010 That leaves Benzema who has had a difficult year at Madrid admittedly, but he's still considered a class attacker at international level. Again, the fact he's not selected should be another proof that experience is not the favoured criteria of national team managers! surely the exclusion of benzema is proof experience is preferred since, despite his undoubtable quality, he's still quite young and so inexperienced.
shen Posted 3 June 2010 Posted 3 June 2010 surely the exclusion of benzema is proof experience is preferred since, despite his undoubtable quality, he's still quite young and so inexperienced. Nope. He has more than twice as many caps as the one selected ahead of him, Gignac. Yes he's young but he already has 5 years of first team football behind him and has won five major trophies already. Not to mention almost a quarter century of games in Europe. So not only does he have higher pedigree but he's also more experienced than the option Domenech took.
Libertine Posted 4 June 2010 Posted 4 June 2010 King against USA then Carra/Upson/even Dawson against the others. Not such a disaster for the group games (not saying they're easy), the worry comes later. If we rotate King and Carragher it shouldn't be too disastrous.
Ozwin Posted 4 June 2010 Posted 4 June 2010 Don't rate Upson at all but I reckon he'll be starting for some reason.
Jon the Hat Posted 4 June 2010 Posted 4 June 2010 Rio is no great loss. He always seems to make mistakes in big games.
ScouseFox Posted 4 June 2010 Posted 4 June 2010 England captain Rio Ferdinand has been ruled out of the World Cup after suffering a knee injury in training.The 31-year-old centre-back had a scan after hurting his left knee following a challenge with Emile Heskey during Friday's first training session. People on Facebook have now decided we're not going to win the World Cup, and it's Heskey's fault already
Tilley Posted 4 June 2010 Posted 4 June 2010 Dawson/Upson/Carragher can play against Slovakia and Algeria. As long as King plays against USA and is rested for knockout stages, we'll be absolutely fine.
Libertine Posted 4 June 2010 Posted 4 June 2010 Dawson/Upson/Carragher can play against Slovakia and Algeria. As long as King plays against USA and is rested for knockout stages, we'll be absolutely fine. *explodes with admiration*
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