Tottenham and other disturbances / riots

[Daggers]

Channel 4 News Chief Correspondent Alex Thomson reports from Eltham, one of the only areas to see continued trouble five nights after riots began. But there was confusion over who was fighting who. Select a rating 1 2 3 4 5 It was, as the phrase goes, a major police presence on the streets. All we had heard were the usual Twitter messages about vigilantes coming out in Eltham in south east London "to protect their community".

This is a phrase you hear rather a lot of in some parts of England just now.

So it was that in the central crossroads of Eltham they certainly had come out in force. Crowds of young men and (mostly male) teenagers and crowds of police. Scores of police transit vans. Many from Wales judging by the badges.

In two pockets close to the central crossroads, two groups of men - not teenagers this time. White men, roughly from their twenties into their forties. You quickly heard them randomly abusing the several hundred police gathered here, along with chants of "E...E...EDL" (English Defence League).

You quickly heard them randomly abusing the several hundred police gathered here, along with chants of "E...E...EDL".

The local pubs had been asked to close for the evening and all the shops and food places bar a rather fine Chinese had agreed to do so.

So the stage was set, it seems, for a rather bizarre confrontation: these chanting men had come, we were told, to protect their streets. The police had come to protect their streets. And here were the two groups come to protect the streets by confronting each other.

Only a matter of time

Thus it was only a matter of time.

As it happens we were in precisely the "right" place for the first of a number of cans and bottle to come hurling in from the EDL chanters to the riot police.

That was the signal for them to act, steadily and gradually charging out from the central crossroads to retake an area several hundred yards down the roads reaching out from it. Gradually the crowd of perhaps a hundred or so men legged it at every police push.

The officers had dogs but did not use them. We saw one arrest but basically the "vigilantes" never allowed the police to get near enough and the police themselves appeared pretty happy with things being that way.

In an hour or so it was all over and these men had melted away into the night.

So who were they? Were they an organised EDL outfit? Well, hard to know since whenever we were close to them they threw bottles and other objects at us and the police - or simply ran away as fast as they could.

Local people standing watching all this divided into two distinct groups. The first insisted these were local Eltham men come out to "defend our community" from would-be rioters and on the whole these people seemed pretty angry at the vast police presence which seemed to have been mounted to prevent them doing the police's job.

The other camp insisted these were not locals at all but outsiders - EDL - coming into the area to stir up racial tension and mix it with the police or anybody else.

"Lewisham,", they told us darkly. You quickly sense on the streets here there is little love lost between Lewisham and Eltham, for reasons I could not entirely fathom.

Channel 4 News FactCheck counts the costs of the riots

EDL, vigilantes, locals

Tony Begsley described himself as an EDL member from nearby Dartford and said these were not EDL people but people using the EDL name to stir up trouble.

"I've come up to video them because they're using the EDL name and they are nothing to do with EDL - just using the name to jump on the bandwagon," he said.

"They're all locals but they just don't want all these police down here they want to manage their own streets."

That, like much else in terms of who these people are and why they were here, and how they were protecting their community by attacking policemen who had come here to do the same thing, will be hotly contested in this areas.

Adrian, a local resident said: "There's just no reason for this. These are grown men. They're just trying to get a reputation for themselves, for their gang or whatever. There's just no need for it. They're just putting themselves up as idiots."

"They should send them out to Afghanistan," said another."That's where the English men are. They're just coming into this area to cause trouble."

Whatever they are about, it presents a new potential challenge for outside police forces - in this case from another country (Wales) in many cases - who do not know the area but who do now know that potentially, there is more to this disorder than simply bunches of kids looting because they think they can get away with it.

Yes, it will definitly be people impersonating the EDL and not the EDL themselves. You'd never find bunches of pig-shit thick, drunk white blokes lobbing stuff and acting like cvnts at any EDL march - so these twats were obviously just using the chant because they like the lyrics.

[Corky]

Yes, plenty of people would want to attach themselves to the EDL wouldn't they?

[21st Century Fox]

If one more politician gets anymore screen time to just 'condemn' violence and riots without having anything constructive to say or solutions to propose, I would happily finish off what Guy Fawkes started!

[Bellend Sebastian]

Criminoligists discuss the newspapers' theories for why people have been being c****:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14483149

[Daggers]

Cameron's statements to Parliament in full:

1. No I'll not reverse the cuts to the police budgets which will have a knock-on effect on police numbers because the police can make £1.5 billion in savings through back-office cut-backs

2. Children are wonderful

3. This was criminal behaviour which in no way reflects upon my policies or period in office

4. Teacher's should punish kids more strongly

5. I'm going to control media/social media next time

6. It's all the fault of Labour

7. I'm sticking my fingers in my ears now so I can't hear you. La-la-la-la, see? I'm not listening. You can't make me because I am Prime Minister. La-la-la-la...

[Bellend Sebastian]

Cameron's statements to Parliament in full:

1. No I'll not reverse the cuts to the police budgets which will have a knock-on effect on police numbers because the police can make £1.5 billion in savings through back-office cut-backs

2. Children are wonderful

3. This was criminal behaviour which in no way reflects upon my policies or period in office

4. Teacher's should punish kids more strongly

5. I'm going to control media/social media next time

6. It's all the fault of Labour

7. I'm sticking my fingers in my ears now so I can't hear you. La-la-la-la, see? I'm not listening. You can't make me because I am Prime Minister. La-la-la-la...

What he really wants is for poor people to be invisible again, and isn't that what we all want? They were in Debenhams for Chrissake! We go in there sometimes!

No need for liberal hand-wringing or right wing rage if we can't see them

[The Doctor]

This is getting ridiculous now, deport the ***** to Australia, see if they can still be bothered to riot when surrounded by millions of happy-go-lucky ****-wits.

[Bellend Sebastian]

This is getting ridiculous now, deport the ***** to Australia, see if they can still be bothered to riot when surrounded by millions of happy-go-lucky ****-wits.

There's a lot more room in Antarctica, although employment opportunities are limited: Fluffer needed for elephant seal porno film

[The Doctor]

There's a lot more room in Antarctica, although employment opportunities are limited: Fluffer needed for elephant seal porno film

like these people have any chance of employment in the first place

[ACF]

This is getting ridiculous now, deport the ***** to Australia, see if they can still be bothered to riot when surrounded by millions of happy-go-lucky ****-wits.

Piss off!

[Bellend Sebastian]

http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/10/an-open-letter-to-david-camerons-parents/

[The Doctor]

Piss off!

what?

Australia was designed as a place for England to dump all their undesirable people.

[Houdini Logic]

http://nathanieltapley.com/2011/08/10/an-open-letter-to-david-camerons-parents/

It's amazing how quickly your forget about these things.

On the money though

[Guest lcfc80]

Its got **** all to do with the EDL? Its football lads, not EDL. So don't understand what point your trying to make there.

And actually no Barry I wasn't. Sorry for biting your head off btw, just annoys me when people slag these boys off, if it wasn't for them, things would have gotten a lot worse in town.

EDIT: And Daggers, they stopped the police doing their job? Are you nuts pal? Theres a reason parts of London, B'ham and other places got torn apart, its because the police didn't do anything, they let the rioters take control.

Theres also a reason it stopped in B'ham, it never kicked off in parts of London (Spurs, Millwall, Charlton) and here. Its because the football lads stood on the high streets.

you are bang on there, been saying it but people dont want to listen, the EDL werent any major force in Eltham, it was local lads that many happened to support Millwall with the odd one supporting the EDL.

Daggers hasnt a clue what he's talking about as I know for a fact (as i know some people that were there) that these same lads managed to chased these rioters away from Eltham twice and stop it getting smashed up on MONDAY, the worse day of the rioting and a day before anyone on here even knew they were doing what they were.

So to summarise they stopped their town getting burnt down the same night when many other places saw the worse rioting they have had saving local peoples property and livelyhoods (twice) when the police were too overstretched to stop anything. its just to easy for people on here to sit reading whatever articles they like in whatever papers and on facebook and twitter and believe they know everything that is going on

#now awaits a few snidey digs

[Corky]

Piss off!

They're not that bad, just misguided.

[Guest lcfc80]

You'd have thought this would have been a cert to go ahead considering the Spurs "football lads" ensured that nothing happened there...

The Spurs lads were in another area on Tuesday and not Tottenham

[Wherethefoxhat?]

[Leicester_Loyal]

lcfc80, glad someone else here has some knowledge of what actually went on. Spot on pal.

And the reason it kicked off in Tottenham at the start, the rioters kicked off in the middle of the night, before any lads or members of the community had time to sort a anti-riot lot out.

You lot can sit here and judge people all you want, but when it comes down to it, most of you have done nothing to help stop these rioters or help clean up the town after the damage has been done. If by cleaning up our town or defending peoples property means I have to defend it with 'members' of the EDL or football lads, then I'll do it. These lads have done us proud, you'd be thanking them if they stopped the rioters damaging your houses or property, so wind your necks in.

[Houdini Logic]

You lot can sit here and judge people all you want, but when it comes down to it, most of you have done nothing to help stop these rioters or help clean up the town after the damage has been done. If by cleaning up our town or defending peoples property means I have to defend it with 'members' of the EDL or football lads, then I'll do it. These lads have done us proud, you'd be thanking them if they stopped the rioters damaging your houses or property, so wind your necks in.

They're usually the ones rioting and smashing up our cities you naive, ignorant cock end

[Guest lcfc80]

They're usually the ones rioting and smashing up our cities you naive, ignorant cock end

come on lets not get hysterical. When was the last time you seen a mob of football lads come to leicester and 'smash the town up'?

[NGoloMode]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cbVW_QS2eE

Its gone too far now..

[Leicester_Loyal]

They're usually the ones rioting and smashing up our cities you naive, ignorant cock end

Typical response from another one who doesn't have a clue.

Football lads are constantly going around smashing up cities aren't they

[Dr The Singh]

Typical response from another one who doesn't have a clue.

Football lads are constantly going around smashing up cities aren't they

It's like saying

'islamic terrorist are constantly going around blowing themselves up killing innocents'

At the right time, place and scenario's EDL has caused no end of trouble and abuse including racist chanting, thuggery and blatant disregard for anyone else but themselves. Although not every week, they have done so, enough to get recognised for being morons, louts and trouble makers!!!

[Leicester_Loyal]

Oh and I will totally agree with that mate, I don't agree with what they do or say, but I'm just saying that they have at least stood and protected shops and the high street.

Btw my point was more about the football lads rather than the EDL.

[Guest lcfc80]

It's like saying

'islamic terrorist are constantly going around blowing themselves up killing innocents'

At the right time, place and scenario's EDL has caused no end of trouble and abuse including racist chanting, thuggery and blatant disregard for anyone else but themselves. Although not every week, they have done so, enough to get recognised for being morons, louts and trouble makers!!!

you seem to be blurring the line between football lads and the EDL