Tottenham and other disturbances / riots

[21st Century Fox]

and after all these pages and repeated boring posts of yours (thats my opinion, not a cast iron fact) and you have actually brought no evidence, no researched debate, just your opinion, like I have yet you want to make out you opinion is more valued than mine.

and still dont forget i tucked you right up with your access to education theory

and i genuinely did enjoy the debate last night till i read yet another snidey comment after you knew I'd logged off

edit - just wanted to point out i didnt mean that smug little 'giggle' smilie, thought it was another one

Hold on a sec, I was just off doing something else it stuck me of what you thing I meant by what I said.

I wasn't saying anti-social behaviour is based on your level of education. I pitched better education as a solution to bad parenting because if you're given access to a better education you have a better chance at a better job and therefore a feeling of a brighter future and self worth. You break this cycle by giving a whole generation a better chance and hopefully they won't influence their children in the same way that theirs have influenced them.

Concerning the student riots, these people have been educated and can form there own political reasoning which is why they rioted (especially the Anarchists involved as this is a principle of Anarchy, they did it as a political tool, reasoned). If a riot is a riot then you'd class the citizens of the Arab nations as anti-social, which they aren't, they had a clear, reasoned and definitive goal, not based on behaviour.

Now again if you think that is based purely on adrenaline rushes and 'buzzes' thats your prerogative but most things aren't as black and white as that and have much deep seeded roots.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

and the daily mail was on the canteen table at work so what do i do on my break, read the paper or read ingrediants to my tin of tuna?

That is no excuse, it should be so unreadable to the intelligent man you feel compelled to burn it. At least the tin of tuna would have more factual information on it!

[l444ry]

Labour should be careful with any political gain they try and make from this as I think most will view that in bad taste.

This situation could also be the making of Cameron. If he takes a hard line stance I imagine that will be approved by the populist majority, regardless of whether that is the right or wrong approach.

Add in the fact that Ed Millaband just doesn't seem electable as a PM, I'd be very suprised if Cameron doesn't get a second term, without the liberals this time!

To be fair it is an Internet debate. Just wouldn’t be the same without a bit of hyperbole. Also, I’m pretty sure I just saw War And Famine go galloping past my window…

[AoWW]

and after all these pages and repeated boring posts of yours (thats my opinion, not a cast iron fact) and you have actually brought no evidence, no researched debate, just your opinion, like I have yet you want to make out you opinion is more valued than mine.

and still dont forget i tucked you right up with your access to education theory

and i genuinely did enjoy the debate last night till i read yet another snidey comment after you knew I'd logged off

edit - just wanted to point out i didnt mean that smug little 'giggle' smilie, thought it was another one

Yet you've made more posts in this thread than 21st Century Fox. And yours are just as boring and repetitive (that's my opinion, only the number of posts is a cast iron fact)!

[Guest lcfc80]

Your viewpoint is flawed....little one i think could i refer you to some literature and some papers that you might find of some use i did when i did my PHD in criminal psychology and environmental psychology.

mate, i'd be more than happy to read anything that was published that actually concluded anything and i'd happily debate my ideas and take things on board etc etc. what happened last night was i gave my opinion based on life experiences and was shouted down on the back of a study that hasnt even been finished.

[Zingari]

To be fair it is an Internet debate. Just wouldn’t be the same without a bit of hyperbole. Also, I’m pretty sure I just saw War And Famine go galloping past my window…

were they chasing a rather large lady carrying some bags of crisps ?

[Guest lcfc80]

Yet you've made more posts in this thread than 21st Century Fox. And yours are just as boring and repetitive (that's my opinion, only the number of posts is a cast iron fact)!

maybe, and if you dont agree or find them engaging then thats up to you but what you will have seen is that i have tried to back up everything i have posted with reason, allbeit not generally agreeing with everyone but one thing is for sure, if you are slightly outspoken on here and dont agree with what others think then people queue up to take little shots. Doesnt bother me though tbh as it would make it a very boring place if everyone agreed

[DJ Barry Hammond]

mate, i'd be more than happy to read anything that was published that actually concluded anything and i'd happily debate my ideas and take things on board etc etc. what happened last night was i gave my opinion based on life experiences and was shouted down on the back of a study that hasnt even been finished.

Well the point I was trying to make was your approach was far simplistic and that there is clearly more than one simple reason to the events of the past few days.

You then question the validity of a fellow posters basis for their view based on a scientific study (in progress), yet your view is essentially based on 'life experience' which on the front of it should be open to ridicule.

You then join in with another poster celebrating the role of some 'football lads' in eltham, who shouldn't be confused or mixed in with the edl in anyway, and feel that any scinasicm at these people's motives is completely unfounded.

[tewkesbury-fox]

maybe, and if you dont agree or find them engaging then thats up to you but what you will have seen is that i have tried to back up everything i have posted with reason, allbeit not generally agreeing with everyone but one thing is for sure, if you are slightly outspoken on here and dont agree with what others think then people queue up to take little shots. Doesnt bother me though tbh as it would make it a very boring place if everyone agreed

A riot is the language of the unheard-Martin Luther King

Interesting debate

[AoWW]

maybe, and if you dont agree or find them engaging then thats up to you but what you will have seen is that i have tried to back up everything i have posted with reason, allbeit not generally agreeing with everyone but one thing is for sure, if you are slightly outspoken on here and dont agree with what others think then people queue up to take little shots. Doesnt bother me though tbh as it would make it a very boring place if everyone agreed

ooh, I do love being told what I have (or haven't!) seen! :Being blond and female I find it a really useful aide-memoir.

[Zingari]

maybe, and if you dont agree or find them engaging then thats up to you but what you will have seen is that i have tried to back up everything i have posted with reason, allbeit not generally agreeing with everyone but one thing is for sure, if you are slightly outspoken on here and dont agree with what others think then people queue up to take little shots. Doesnt bother me though tbh as it would make it a very boring place if everyone agreed

very true

i enjoy all the hotly debated stuff , i don't join in much because i'm not that erudite , but it doesn't stop me trying to see all the points of view

keep it up all fellow foxestalkers

[Guest lcfc80]

Well the point I was trying to make was your approach was far simplistic and that there is clearly more than one simple reason to the events of the past few days.

You then question the validity of a fellow posters basis for their view based on a scientific study (in progress), yet your view is essentially based on 'life experience' which on the front of it should be open to ridicule.

You then join in with another poster celebrating the role of some 'football lads' in eltham, who shouldn't be confused or mixed in with the edl in anyway, and feel that any scinasicm at these people's motives is completely unfounded.

i honestly think life is a lot more simple than people make out mate. for example, some left wingers have been queuing up to try and say these riots kicked off because of this and that and the rioters being ignored by the government etc yet some rioters in manchester were asked why and they just said because they could and because they could get some free stuff. the rioters are actually telling people why they are doing it but some people want to make up there own conclussions.

and the Eltham thing mate, I can honestly say I probably do know more about that than anyone else on here yet still get shot down. In fact i waent and asked one ofthe lads about the edl thing after the posts on here earlier, and (i know this is just my word) he basically confirmed what i'd said, Monday and tuesday was eltham lads (many being 'millwall lads') and only 3 being edl, the wednesday most didnt go out because of the idiot eliment had jumped on board

[Daggers]

Take your foot out of your mouth, Bilo!

Just making an observation. Whether I like or dislike Cameron is immaterial.

The point I make is that the Tories old chestnut argument can now be countered by Labour.

"deeper than I'm claiming"......that's a laugh. I was one of the first on here making the point that this wasn't just "evil kids".

You were so much funnier and generally more entertaining when you were Lemon Harpic.

[Daggers]

I'm just pointing out your pseudo intellectual arguments are falling pretty much on their arse every time you post. Laughable really. But you need the attention so you keep coming back for more, as though you actually feel you are winning some FT argument league. I guess you need the virtual attention that your 600 friends can't give you.

Ace!

[Guest lcfc80]

Hold on a sec, I was just off doing something else it stuck me of what you thing I meant by what I said.

I wasn't saying anti-social behaviour is based on your level of education. I pitched better education as a solution to bad parenting because if you're given access to a better education you have a better chance at a better job and therefore a feeling of a brighter future and self worth. You break this cycle by giving a whole generation a better chance and hopefully they won't influence their children in the same way that theirs have influenced them.

Concerning the student riots, these people have been educated and can form there own political reasoning which is why they rioted (especially the Anarchists involved as this is a principle of Anarchy, they did it as a political tool, reasoned). If a riot is a riot then you'd class the citizens of the Arab nations as anti-social, which they aren't, they had a clear, reasoned and definitive goal, not based on behaviour.

Now again if you think that is based purely on adrenaline rushes and 'buzzes' thats your prerogative but most things aren't as black and white as that and have much deep seeded roots.

i will accept that uprisings in the arab countries are different to anything we can ever get our heads around so im not actually sure you can compare them to any riots/protests on our shores. yet the student rioters, the anarchists, the pricks from the last week all have the right to protest if they want to do so they have a head start in the first place. surely you cant really compare the uprisings to anything we've had here?

as for the 'buzz' thing, just look how many people are now going through court and have jobs and don't fit into the 'poorest of the poor' stereotype. many of the excuses are they just got caught upin the moment, i.e the rush of adrenaline got the better of them in a moment of excitment

[Guest lcfc80]

so are you stereotyping that all football lads are edl members and visa versa or have you just opened your mouth without knowing anything about it. you seem to make out you have a great knowledge of this in Eltham yet had no idea these lads (Millwall lads from Eltham not EDL) stopped Eltham high street getting trashed Monday night, or is that a bad thing?

daggers, you seem to have made a few little digs yet avoided the post i made above

is it a good thing that these lads stopped Eltham high street getting smashed up?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

i honestly think life is a lot more simple than people make out mate. for example, some left wingers have been queuing up to try and say these riots kicked off because of this and that and the rioters being ignored by the government etc yet some rioters in manchester were asked why and they just said because they could and because they could get some free stuff. the rioters are actually telling people why they are doing it but some people want to make up there own conclussions.

and the Eltham thing mate, I can honestly say I probably do know more about that than anyone else on here yet still get shot down. In fact i waent and asked one ofthe lads

about the edl thing after the posts on here earlier, and (i know this is just my word) he basically confirmed what i'd said, Monday and tuesday was eltham lads (many being 'millwall lads') and only 3 being edl, the wednesday most didnt go out because of the idiot eliment had jumped on board

as I've commented before I like a simple approach, but this is far from a simple situation so I don't think one can be used and how you can be so dismissive of any other point of view.

Asking people can only attain so much, as most of these actions would have taken place without conscious thought and so although people may try and provide logic and reason afterwards in truth not even they know.

Adrenaline or a buzz can form part of a theory for a fee, but that only accounts for the physical and chemical balanced of the human body and does not account for the more complex area of the conscious and unconscious mind.

Upbringing and previous life experience will count for much of what happens in both mind states, as different people will interpret different situations with a varrying degree of acceptability - some people involved in these actions will genuinely feel they were justified, which shows after the

adrenaline has left the body the conscious mind in those individuals is still leaning the same way.

Then we can come to the greed cycle, the need for material goods, which has also been touted by some as a main reason.

Well if you cycle back 20 to 30 years ago the mind set for possessions wad generally a lot different, in that you had what you could afford and if you aspired to better you had to wait and save for it.

The modern era has brought credit and a have it all now, pay later physcosis, and I would say that has had an effect here in that many saw the opportunity to aquire items of desire or high worth and thought, yes, let's take this opportunity hence the large degree of copycat riots.

The post of the guy ranting to camera typifies this, as he reals out the numerous I'll advised reasons for his conduct, a large proportion of the group in the background have carried on, targeting the nearest electronic, phone or fashion shop in sight, unaware of who or what they are fighting for - maybe they're just there for the buzz like you say.

But clearly one reason for all of these people's actions from different areas is far too simplistic, surely even you have to agree?

[Trav Le Bleu]

I banged my head on my monitor trying to loot eBay.

[21st Century Fox]

i will accept that uprisings in the arab countries are different to anything we can ever get our heads around so im not actually sure you can compare them to any riots/protests on our shores. yet the student rioters, the anarchists, the pricks from the last week all have the right to protest if they want to do so they have a head start in the first place. surely you cant really compare the uprisings to anything we've had here?

as for the 'buzz' thing, just look how many people are now going through court and have jobs and don't fit into the 'poorest of the poor' stereotype. many of the excuses are they just got caught upin the moment, i.e the rush of adrenaline got the better of them in a moment of excitment

This thread!

I wasn't making the comparison you said "a riot is a riot". Thats precisely why you can't compare them, they had a goal and motive and an agenda, far past any involuntary or subconscious behaviour. Riots are a principle of Anarchy which is a political philosophy its been reasoned and thought out, so its not based on behaviour either. These people being interviewed saying they did it because they could obviously don't know themselves why they did it, they have no motive to speak of which would lead you to think its behavioural, hence why you or I wasn't out there also, because we could have if we'd wanted to.

Baring opportunists who have looted which is another case all together and probably based on completely different reasons e.g. financial/moral. There weren't many opportunists setting fire to buildings and actually bricking windows, the people who were doing that were more than likely the same people who usually vandalise property, beat up or intimidate strangers outside of a riot. Again I'm not saying that rich people don't commit such crimes, but then again not all rich people make perfect parents, but I think you can agree that the majority of them during these riots were from poorer areas. The student riots didn't include extensive looting, arson or muggings, other than what would have been committed by the anarchists which is again part of there political agenda. The serious crimes that were committed during the latest riots do seem to be committed by the people from the poorer areas who I mentioned previously.

[Dr The Singh]

I'm sure the football lads and EDL would have done the same for the muslims duing there holy month, even better the hindus who have been far too busy making chappatis!!!

http://itn.co.uk/home/26325/Anger+towards+police+in+Birmingham

Anger towards police in Birmingham

Thu Aug 11 2011 5:17

Residents in the Winson Green area of Birmingham have said that police failed to protect the community during the riots in the city, after three men were killed while attempting to protect the area from looters.

The men, named as Haroon Jahan, 21, and brothers Shazad Ali, 30, and Abdul Musavir, 31, were killed after being hit by a car as they protected shops during the early hours of Wednesday morning.

Hundreds of people attended a community group meeting on Wednesday, which was attended by members of the West Midlands Police who answered questions about their tactics.

Speaking after the meeting, one resident said the force still had questions to answer.

"Why ain't the police protecting the Muslim Mosques while they are praying after Ramadan? The police haven't done anything for us, it's the Sikh community have come and stood there to protect the Muslim Mosques so that people do not get hurt while they are praying," he said.

Politicians and police have come under fire for not deploying enough officers on the streets after riots, which began in London on Saturday, and spread beyond the capital this week.

Police have launched a murder investigation into the three deaths in Birmingham, with a 32-year-old man having been arrested on suspicion of murder.

[l444ry]

[jonthefox]

Im glad this scumbag , no good, pencil dicked , mutha f**kers been pulled in.

http://web.orange.co.uk/article/news/man_arrested_over_good_samaritan_attack

[StanSP]

[Daggers]

"I don't even know what reletavising is!"

The best I've ever seen her perform - but you could put up the survivor of a car crash with only 5% brain functionality and they'd still make Gove look like an utter twat. But still, a quality showing.

Gove is one of the most loathesome politicians to have existed in my lifetime.

[AoWW]

"I don't even know what reletavising is!"

The best I've ever seen her perform - but you could put up the survivor of a car crash with only 5% brain functionality and they'd still make Gove look like an utter twat. But still, a quality showing.

Gove is one of the most loathesome politicians to have existed in my lifetime.

I hate saying 'this', but...

This.