Next Leader of the Opposition

[Buce]

Nut leaders earn around 200,000 a year to protect teachers 13 weeks holiday a year.yes I know there is planning and marking to do and various governments are always moving the goalposts but don,t make out it's not a well paid middle class profession with amazing benefits.you get a job paying minimum wage and you would need to work over 100 hours a week to earn an average teachers wage.and slt do bugger all for their money.i should know

Clearly the teaching profession has failed spectacularly in your case - you are barely literate.

[The Doctor]

Average wage after 10 years is 45,000.average head is 80,0000.yes many teachers do work incredibly hard but so do many other people for a lot less so find it annoying when nut etc ... Are always moaning.

 

NUT will be moaning a lot because they're under constant attack by a succession of governments and the public while working far harder than most other people. The starting wages are crap - around 20k (I'm working in a warehouse while I search for a graduate job, this is a school leavers role and pays only 4k less), and after 10 years it's 29k (not 45k, I've no idea where you've got that idea from) - for the amount of study you'd need to do (undergrad degree followed by a PGCE) and the hours you work, not to mention the quitting rate, you've got to be in it for the love of teaching, anyone going for the money will be sadly disappointed and flunk out very quickly.

[Alf Bentley]

Well, that's strange. I've ended up with a vote in this!

 

Having not been a Labour Party member since the 90s, I felt a sudden urge to rejoin last week. It seems like a watershed moment - could be a glorious turning-point or an utter fiasco. 

Whatever else, it's not going to be boring.

 

I didn't even know who I'd vote for when I signed up.

I shouldn't really be able to vote at all - even though I've signed up as a full member, not just a £3 "registered supporter". In the old days, you had to be a member for at least 1 year to vote in important party elections.

 

Am now pretty much decided to go Burnham 1, Corbyn 2 for leader - and Creasy 1, Watson 2 for deputy.

 

Corbyn's done a much better job at presenting a hard left argument than the Bennites / Militant & co did in the early 80s. Rather than present a shopping list of kneejerk lefty policies, he's popularised them to make them attractive beyond the hard left. Even so, I just can't see him either leading an effective and reasonably united opposition or winning a general election. Plus, at some point he'd say something that allowed the media to vilify him - though they'd attack any Labour leader (apart from a certain oily NuLab warmonger).

 

I don't buy the "Labour needs a woman leader" argument. It would be good, but NOT if there's no suitable woman candidate. I really wouldn't want to see Liz Kendall (New Labour, Blairite faction) or Queen Cynic Yvette Cooper (New Labour, Brownite faction) as leader. Voters are heartily sick of all the New Labour vacuousness, soundbites, Tory-aping, jargon and cheap point-scoring. Let's leave that to Cameron and his mates who still want to pump out that public relations garbage while ripping the country apart.

 

I don't find Burnham overly convincing and he's shifted around a lot, but at least he understands the needs to move on from the New Labour bullshit and to present a more honest, inspiring vision while retaining wide appeal. He comes across as a likeable bloke, which helps - and his lovely long eyelashes should win over the housewife vote ( ). 

 

Labour would still face an uphill struggle unless the Tories fvck things up big-time and create massive discontent....but they're more than capable of doing that, so Labour need to be standing ready as a strong opposition / potential government.

 

It's going to be interesting either way. If Corbyn wins, politics will get very lively.... and what the hell will all the Blairite centrists do? If Corbyn loses, how many of the new influx of "radical youth" will stick around in the Labour Party....not many, I suspect, especially if Cooper wins. Could Burnham mobilise the radicals while not alienating more MOR voters? He has more chance than any of the other 3....

[Guest MattP]

Well if the voters like Alf are giving Corbyn the 2nd preference votes he's got it wrapped up. Burnham and Cooper are now trying to claim they are the only ones who can win and the other should withdraw, it's all got a bit childish.

 

Why the hell didn't Umanna run? Surely even if he was outed he would been able to have beaten this shower?

 

Corbyn's shadow cabinet should be a cracker, he'll probably only have about 20 MP's to choose from and half of them are dinosaurs, could be places for McDonell, Abbott and Skinner it's going to make Miliband's cabinet look sensible.

[Finnegan]

I stopped following this weeks ago but is Umanna still tipped to stand as a mayoral candidate?

If so, that's probably more sensible than running for the leadership at this point, from a purely selfish point of view.

The next labour leader has a difficult and thankless task ahead of them whereas MoL gives plenty of opportunity to build up a portfolio, see Boris.

[Alf Bentley]

Well if the voters like Alf are giving Corbyn the 2nd preference votes he's got it wrapped up. 

 

 

Take your point about the risk of a fiasco if Corbyn wins, but would you have supported Ken Clarke for Tory leader instead of Hague and IDS in 1997 and 2001?

It was clear to non-Tories that he was the "most electable candidate", but he didn't fit the Tory politics of the time.

 

I'm not even sure that Cooper or Kendall are more electable than Corbyn. They're essentially hangovers from New Labour and politics has moved on. Does the electorate really want 5-10 more dreary years of a Labour leader spouting cliches about being "moderate", "good for business", in favour of "hard-working families"? Years of them slating the Tories for certain minor differences while clinging close to other Tory policies (in opposition, at least)? That has alienated enough people from politics already.

 

Labour needs to present a clearly-differentiated vision capable of inspiring supporters and not alienating centrists / people who are not that switched on to politics. I'm not convinced that any such leader is on offer, but Burnham seems the most likely candidate to me. Maybe Cooper or Kendall would be able to switch out of cliche/bland/jargon/slogan-ridden NuLabour mode - or maybe Corbyn would be able to present a unifying vision from the left? I'm not convinced....though, astonishingly, Corbyn has actually shown more sign of being able to adapt than Cooper or Kendall - partly why I'd prefer that gamble as a second choice to Burnham, rather than the equally pointless but even less inspiring gamble of Cooper/Kendall.

[Finnegan]

Kendall is just a straight up tory.

[Guest MattP]

I stopped following this weeks ago but is Umanna still tipped to stand as a mayoral candidate?

If so, that's probably more sensible than running for the leadership at this point, from a purely selfish point of view.

The next labour leader has a difficult and thankless task ahead of them whereas MoL gives plenty of opportunity to build up a portfolio, see Boris.

 

Nah he doesn't seem to have any interest in it, it's between Khan, Jowell, Lammy and Abbott for the London mayoral role. I actually like David Lammy as well, I think he'd make a good mayor. What that pig Abbott is doing in the race I'll never know, she's surely caused enough damage for this party over the last few years without showing herself up again.

 

Take your point about the risk of a fiasco if Corbyn wins, but would you have supported Ken Clarke for Tory leader instead of Hague and IDS in 1997 and 2001?

It was clear to non-Tories that he was the "most electable candidate", but he didn't fit the Tory politics of the time.

 

I'm not even sure that Cooper or Kendall are more electable than Corbyn. They're essentially hangovers from New Labour and politics has moved on. Does the electorate really want 5-10 more dreary years of a Labour leader spouting cliches about being "moderate", "good for business", in favour of "hard-working families"? Years of them slating the Tories for certain minor differences while clinging close to other Tory policies (in opposition, at least)? That has alienated enough people from politics already.

 

Labour needs to present a clearly-differentiated vision capable of inspiring supporters and not alienating centrists / people who are not that switched on to politics. I'm not convinced that any such leader is on offer, but Burnham seems the most likely candidate to me. Maybe Cooper or Kendall would be able to switch out of cliche/bland/jargon/slogan-ridden NuLabour mode - or maybe Corbyn would be able to present a unifying vision from the left? I'm not convinced....though, astonishingly, Corbyn has actually shown more sign of being able to adapt than Cooper or Kendall - partly why I'd prefer that gamble as a second choice to Burnham, rather than the equally pointless but even less inspiring gamble of Cooper/Kendall.

 

I don't think I could vote for Ken Clarke even now Alf, the man might hold the free market priciples of being a Conservative but he's a very strange breed of one and his subservience to Europe whatever the circumstance is worrying, clearly a very good local MP though and he seems to command huge respect from all sides of the house.

 

I think a female leader would have been good for the party, I know that's not what you should select on but it would would have looked like a fresh start and the "new politics" people talk of, the candidates were horrific though, I don't think they have a woman capable of leading them. The party looks in trouble whoever is in charge, (rightly or wrongly) I don't think they are ever going to shift the 'economic incompetence' tag , though I suppose a move to Corbyn takes that out anyway as he won't even pretend to be.

 

Agree Burnham is the most likely candidate to unite the left, whether he is electable is another thing, he can send people to sleep talking and he does resemble a ventriloquist's dummy. He has the best policy of the four by a mile though and as Bilo has said a few times it's important every single Labour voter reads his manifesto before casting their vote although little chance of that happening when half appear to have signed up for vote for JC.

 

Corbyn for leader could kill off the Green party and amen to that, any sort of non staunch, middle ground or immigration concerned Labour voter is going to be off though under him, the Lib Dems have a massive chance to relaunch.

Kendall is just a straight up tory.

 

Strange how she gets such a big vote in Leicester West isn't it if that's the case?

[Christoph]

 

Strange how she gets such a big vote in Leicester West isn't it if that's the case?

 

In all fairness how many people specifically voted for an MP? The vast majority of people just vote the party they want rather than the individuals. 

[Guest MattP]

In all fairness how many people specifically voted for an MP? The vast majority of people just vote the party they want rather than the individuals. 

 

Probably right, something I'd like to see changed.

 

It's probably time for Labour to split into two anyway, the party is too much of a broad church at the minute, it's going to be impossible to reconcile the Corbyn's of the party and the Kendall's under the same policy and manifestos.

[Christoph]

I wouldn't be surprised if it split but dont think it would do much good. The Tory's will be licking their lips if it happens. Can you imagine the easy smear campaign they'd do up to an election? Would be very easy and a split labour vote wouldnt beat a larger conservative vote. 

 

The voting system needs to change. Bit of a shame we didnt move to the alternative voting method. Looks a lot better then the one way have currently. 

[Finnegan]

There's nothing strange about Kendall getting elected in LW, she's wearing a red rosette, it's guaranteed.

Doesn't make her particularly liberal or a socialist.

[Guest MattP]

I wouldn't be surprised if it split but dont think it would do much good. The Tory's will be licking their lips if it happens. Can you imagine the easy smear campaign they'd do up to an election? Would be very easy and a split labour vote wouldnt beat a larger conservative vote. 

 

The voting system needs to change. Bit of a shame we didnt move to the alternative voting method. Looks a lot better then the one way have currently. 

 

The alternative vote wouldn't have made a jot of difference to the 2015 vote. I read an article and I think it would have meant the Tories got one more seat than they did.

 

If we change it has to be to PR, why Clegg sold out for AV which wouldn't have made a difference I still don't know to this day.

[Guest MattP]

There's nothing strange about Kendall getting elected in LW, she's wearing a red rosette, it's guaranteed.

Doesn't make her particularly liberal or a socialist.

 

Say that to her minions in New Parks as I did in a few months back and see the reaction you get.

 

Is there much difference in liberalism these days between the Tories and Labour anyway? I'd wager your average Tory voter is probably more liberal in the true sense of the word than your average Labour one, cdertainly is from the people I speak to whose voting trends I know.

 

The Labour party at the last election had MP's prepared to attend sex-segregated political rallies. If the my Tory MP did that I'd be disgusted.

[Lionator]

I think a lot of people will proverbially bottle it and end up voting for Burnham ahead of Corbyn. It'll be very close between those two. 

[Rincewind]

I wonder  if they will have figures of people  leaving the Labour party if Corbyn loses? Because he is so far left it leaves the impression on some that the others are too far to yhe right which I don't think is true. The best way to defeat an enemy is from within a little at a time. I just  hope the new leader  makes the right noises to get people behind Labour from all walks of life.

[Sir Fynwy]

I wonder  if they will have figures of people  leaving the Labour party if Corbyn loses? Because he is so far left it leaves the impression on some that the others are too far to yhe right which I don't think is true. The best way to defeat an enemy is from within a little at a time. I just  hope the new leader  makes the right noises to get people behind Labour from all walks of life.

That is absolute BS, if it was the best way to beat an enemy Britain joining the axis powers would have been the best way to win WW2, the best way to beat an enemy is to attack it.

[Finnegan]

Say that to her minions in New Parks as I did in a few months back and see the reaction you get.

Is there much difference in liberalism these days between the Tories and Labour anyway? I'd wager your average Tory voter is probably more liberal in the true sense of the word than your average Labour one, cdertainly is from the people I speak to whose voting trends I know.

The Labour party at the last election had MP's prepared to attend sex-segregated political rallies. If the my Tory MP did that I'd be disgusted.

Satisfy my curiosity, Matt, were the participants of these sex segregated meetings all of a similar faith?

And of course Kendall is going to be popular with plenty of her supporters. She's standing for the correct party and she's good at turning up and chatting, being friendly and even having a little flirt. She's a fantastic shmoozer. I'm confident the majority of her local fanbase are more interested in the fact she's "nice" than her actual policies.

It's like Hillary in the states. Raging conservative in the pocket of Wall Street at heart but she could he the first female pres so she'll ironically get the feminist liberal vote by default.

Just modern politics really. It's all about image. Sad.

[Guest MattP]

Satisfy my curiosity, Matt, were the participants of these sex segregated meetings all of a similar faith?

And of course Kendall is going to be popular with plenty of her supporters. She's standing for the correct party and she's good at turning up and chatting, being friendly and even having a little flirt. She's a fantastic shmoozer. I'm confident the majority of her local fanbase are more interested in the fact she's "nice" than her actual policies.

It's like Hillary in the states. Raging conservative in the pocket of Wall Street at heart but she could he the first female pres so she'll ironically get the feminist liberal vote by default.

Just modern politics really. It's all about image. Sad.

 

Of course. It wasn't going to be anyone else was it. (More worrying is the next deputy leader of Labour was there and appeared to have no problem with this)

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/11581329/Senior-Labour-politicians-Liam-Byrne-and-Tom-Watson-attend-segregated-Muslim-rally.html

 

I agree with you on what you have written there.

[Rincewind]

The leader table at the top needs to be updated Chukka is neck and neck with Burnham and he and two others are not even standing. Corbyn isnot even listed.

[Guest Bilo]

The leader table at the top needs to be updated Chukka is neck and neck with Burnham and he and two others are not even standing. Corbyn isnot even listed.

 

http://www.foxestalk.co.uk/forums/topic/102202-new-labour-leader-poll-only/

[Dr The Singh]

Can we have Donald Trump please.

[johnny the fox]

Think I would prefer Trumpism rather than Corybnism... but there appears to be a load of Corbynists on here... worse than cov or sunderland fans..

[Rincewind]

That is absolute BS, if it was the best way to beat an enemy Britain joining the axis powers would have been the best way to win WW2, the best way to beat an enemy is to attack it.

Is it? So how can a party change things when they  are not in a  position to do so. In WW2 they sent spies in to infultrate and disrupt. Sabatage and so forth. What I am saying whilst Corbyn  may be saying the right things  for a lot of people he will also put a lot of people off especially some of the media can influence the public. Times have changed and the majority of people have their own interests  first. The 'worker' and  'shirkers' message that has repeatedly been spouted out by those in power and media has got through to the public  so they will not change their minds easily. So we need an opposition leader who will take safe route and change the way peple think gradually. Corbyn is trying to do it  before he can make a difference. A shame really because he is passionate and cares for people.

[DB11]

http://www.foxestalk.co.uk/forums/topic/102202-new-labour-leader-poll-only/

 

I can change the poll for this thread if you'd like rather than have the other thread quickly slide down the list of topics