Russia 'begins air strikes' on Syria

[leicsmac]

Yes Twitter is definitely a bastion of left wing opinion; Labour actually won the General Election vote on there.

Did you not listen to Camerons speech at the conference? He made a point of saying "the views of Twitter are not those of Britain" in it.

 

With respect, Matt - that's quite possibly the biggest load of cobblers I've heard so far this year. Did you not see what happened when President Obama first posted on Twitter? The death and rape threats to Anita Sarkeesian and a lady who suggested the idea of a lady on the £10 note might be a good idea? 

 

Twitter amplifies all voices, and I could find you a hundred stories of the left wing nutters right wing equivalent on there - those above are just two.

 

Of course reddit (specifically r/theredpill) and 4chan are a better place to find them, but Twitter is no left wing oasis. If you think that, I dread to think what you make of Tumblr.

[Babylon]

Let's be honest, you can bet your arse Corbyn will make sure he makes the point of saying he'd rather have seen Jihadi John in court rather than dead.

 

At least say that before he's been on the news saying it!!

 

I agree with him, but at what expense? I presume he's wanting to send in ground troops to achieve that, because the bloke isn't going to come home and say "it's a fair cop".

[Guest MattP]

With respect, Matt - that's quite possibly the biggest load of cobblers I've heard so far this year. Did you not see what happened when President Obama first posted on Twitter? The death and rape threats to Anita Sarkeesian and a lady who suggested the idea of a lady on the £10 note might be a good idea? 

 

Twitter amplifies all voices, and I could find you a hundred stories of the left wing nutters right wing equivalent on there - those above are just two.

 

Of course reddit (specifically r/theredpill) and 4chan are a better place to find them, but Twitter is no left wing oasis. If you think that, I dread to think what you make of Tumblr.

 

But it's not is it? As I've already said, Labour won the Twitvote in May, the Greens even beat UKIP? I thought it was pretty widely accepted that Twitter has a pro-left bias? For a variety of reasons from the sort of job you use to the average age of the user.

As for Obama, I think this shows far more evidence of the bias than a few abusive tweets from trolls.

 

[Guest MattP]

At least say that before he's been on the news saying it!!

 

I agree with him, but at what expense? I presume he's wanting to send in ground troops to achieve that, because the bloke isn't going to come home and say "it's a fair cop".

 

I actually didn't see that, I'm watching the cricket!  I hope he at least showed some respect and made mention of the victims etc alongside it this time. Corbyn will probably have more questions to answer about his backing of CAGE mind in the near future with regards to this case.

 

It's a different argument to this thread but I really don't get the desire many seem to have to get as many radical Muslims into prison as possible, for a start prison is now among the most likely place a person will be radicalised, these people have no chance of being rehabiliated, they have no desire for it, they are better off killed in a battlefield where they can never directly influence another human being again.

[Voll Blau]

 

"We await identification of the person targeted in last night's US air attack in Syria.

It appears Mohammed Emwazi has been held to account for his callous and brutal crimes. However, it would have been far better for us all if he had been held to account in a court of law.

These events only underline the necessity of accelerating international efforts, under the auspices of the UN, to bring an end to the Syrian conflict as part of a comprehensive regional settlement."

– Jeremy Corbyn

 

[leicsmac]

But it's not is it? As I've already said, Labour won the Twitvote in May, the Greens even beat UKIP? I thought it was pretty widely accepted that Twitter has a pro-left bias? For a variety of reasons from the sort of job you use to the average age of the user.

As for Obama, I think this shows far more evidence of the bias than a few abusive tweets from trolls.

 

 

I would assume that the number of Twitter "voters" was higher than the number of "TwitVotes", which would mean a more reliable sample, yes? Also I wouldn't mind seeing the error displayed across all 50 states as opposed to merely seven. 

 

In any case, my point was that right-wingers shout as loudly as left wingers on Twitter and they get themselves heard - they are not in any way marginalised, and the bias isn't nearly as big as you claim it to be. If we say a 65/35 split for the sake of argument (roughly in line with the Twitter "voters" above), that's still a lot of people that identify as Republican - a party further to the right than anything we have over here bar the BNP.

 

Like you I've got the cricket on and so we might have to agree to disagree?

[Guest MattP]

"We await identification of the person targeted in last night's US air attack in Syria.

It appears Mohammed Emwazi has been held to account for his callous and brutal crimes. However, it would have been far better for us all if he had been held to account in a court of law.

These events only underline the necessity of accelerating international efforts, under the auspices of the UN, to bring an end to the Syrian conflict as part of a comprehensive regional settlement."

– Jeremy Corbyn

 

It's an interesting response and certainly one that raises a few questions,

 

Would Jeremy have given the go ahead for this in power or would he have argued against it?, How many people would he allow to be beheaded by this guy before enough is enough and you have to put an immediate kill on him? As for him seeing a court, Which court would he be tried in? Would he have committed troops to try and bring this about as I'm sure even he would admit it was highly unlikely Jihadi John would have a change of heart and hand himself in at Stoke Newington station one morning.

 

I actually like Cameron's statement more but again I think he should have urged us to think of the victim's families, I can't imagine how horrific it would have been to know that your loved one went through that sort of death and it was still freely avaliable on the internet and being enjoyed by some extremely sick people.

 

This was an act of self-defence. It was the right thing to do.”

[Guest MattP]

I would assume that the number of Twitter "voters" was higher than the number of "TwitVotes", which would mean a more reliable sample, yes? Also I wouldn't mind seeing the error displayed across all 50 states as opposed to merely seven. 

 

In any case, my point was that right-wingers shout as loudly as left wingers on Twitter and they get themselves heard - they are not in any way marginalised, and the bias isn't nearly as big as you claim it to be. If we say a 65/35 split for the sake of argument (roughly in line with the Twitter "voters" above), that's still a lot of people that identify as Republican - a party further to the right than anything we have over here bar the BNP.

 

Like you I've got the cricket on and so we might have to agree to disagree?

 

I think so. I've provided enough evidence really that we have no point going around again, I simply can't bring myself to proceed with the sort of delusion that would make me agree a section of society that votes Labour ahead of the Tories on the day the Tories achieve an overall majority in the whole of the country and sees the Green defeat UKIP (across whole country 1.3mil v 3.9mil) isn't one that is leaning towards the left.

[Fox92]

Has Jeremy Corbyn expressed his condolences yet?

 

When did he do that last time? 

 

His words on Bin Laden were taken out of context.

[leicsmac]

I think so. I've provided enough evidence really that we have no point going around again, I simply can't bring myself to proceed with the sort of delusion that would make me agree a section of society that votes Labour ahead of the Tories on the day the Tories achieve an overall majority in the whole of the country and sees the Green defeat UKIP (across whole country 1.3mil v 3.9mil) isn't one that is leaning towards the left.

 

I think what we're disagreeing on the amount of lean, not the fact that it exists.

 

Anyway, time to watch Hales make a ton.

[Guest MattP]

Hopefully, think we need 320-330 looking at this pitch.

[Finnaldo]

Social Media is the death of political and topical debate to be quite honest.

 

Twitter is the exemplary example. Facebook and Tumblr has it's fair share, but to try and debate anything in 140 characters is often nigh on impossible, especially when you have as many variables as politics does. The result is condensed shite or 10 word memes. Then the whole theory of social pressures means that the most fanciful and attractive ideas and opinions become shared with little evidence or reasoning attached. That therefore puts a more socially-minded (or, on first appearance, depending on your political standing) Labour ahead, especially in the younger age groups that are the majority on the platform. I've never seen a post on Twitter giving a fully backed assessment of Cameron, again as it's impossible within 140 characters. Therefore it comes back to the 'pigfvcker' or 'tax credit-stealing monster' again, the only thing they're learnt or likely to learn on Twitter without fully reading up on the topic at hand. In much the same manner, its easy to say 'Corbyn has the answers'  than actually have an understanding of what the answers entail. That goes for some right-wing ideas too on immigation, some of the stuff on Twitter in that sense is as disgusting as the 'kill all white men' neo-feminists. 

 

So while I wouldn't cal it a 'bastion', a lot of the more attractive socialist left views are going to be shared and favourited whilst someone my age is going to be less hasty to post positive feeling on a more right-wing issue, at least on a personal account.

[Voll Blau]

It's an interesting response and certainly one that raises a few questions,

 

Would Jeremy have given the go ahead for this in power or would he have argued against it?, How many people would he allow to be beheaded by this guy before enough is enough and you have to put an immediate kill on him? As for him seeing a court, Which court would he be tried in? Would he have committed troops to try and bring this about as I'm sure even he would admit it was highly unlikely Jihadi John would have a change of heart and hand himself in at Stoke Newington station one morning.

 

I actually like Cameron's statement more but again I think he should have urged us to think of the victim's families, I can't imagine how horrific it would have been to know that your loved one went through that sort of death and it was still freely avaliable on the internet and being enjoyed by some extremely sick people.

 

All valid questions but I don't think he's claiming to have the answers, just looking at it from an idealistic perspective. I think he knows it's naive to think it could have been practically done. As his quote says he feels Emwazi's rightly been held to account, he's hardly indulging in that "I will not rejoice in the death of an enemy..." type quote that was doing the rounds on Facebook when Bin Laden got bumped off.

 

For what it's worth there's a quote attributed to David Haines's widow in which she basically says in an ideal world for the families of his victims Emwazi would be captured alive and brought to jusitce.

[Guest MattP]

Agree with virtually everything you have written there Finnaldo.

 

All valid questions but I don't think he's claiming to have the answers, just looking at it from an idealistic perspective. I think he knows it's naive to think it could have been practically done. As his quote says he feels Emwazi's rightly been held to account, he's hardly indulging in that "I will not rejoice in the death of an enemy..." type quote that was doing the rounds on Facebook when Bin Laden got bumped off.

 

For what it's worth there's a quote attributed to David Haines's widow in which she basically says in an ideal world for the families of his victims Emwazi would be captured alive and brought to jusitce.

 

That seems to be him in a nutshell, chasing unrealistic idealisms, I know Corbyn is one of these people who believes a person's opinion defines their moral virtue but does he have to show us his in every statement he makes? I'm already finding it a bit tiresome.

 

I did read the quote from Haines widow saying she had mixed feelings but also read one from another victim's family saying they were delighted they now knew there was a 0% chance they would ever see a video of him killing again, all about personal opinion I suppose.

[MPH]

Same here. But in war No one wins. There are always innocent casualties on all sides. That is what is wrong. War should never be glorified.

 

All lifeforms are merely temporary

Inhabitants of planet Earth

Man's time a millisecond hidden

In the vastness  of space.

Yet innocents  still suffer

Needlessly again and again

In war; No one wins.

 

 

 

Tell that to Russia after they annexed Crimea pretty successfully... 

[Jon the Hat]

Why would it have been better if we had captured him and put him on trial? Interested to the hear the arguments.  I can mainly see downsides.

 

From my side, if you take to the battlefield against the big boys then you take the risks that come with it.  This happened in a theatre of war.  Pathetic to say we should be arresting people on the battlefield.  This was absolutely the right thing to do.

 

The fact that being able to kill people by drone on the other side of the planet pisses people off is not a reason not to do it.  Sure your enemy would much rather have a chance, but who cares?

[Webbo]

The only thing that I think is a shame is that he didn't die more slowly in agony.

[MPH]

Why would it have been better if we had captured him and put him on trial? Interested to the hear the arguments.  I can mainly see downsides.

 

From my side, if you take to the battlefield against the big boys then you take the risks that come with it.  This happened in a theatre of war.  Pathetic to say we should be arresting people on the battlefield.  This was absolutely the right thing to do.

 

The fact that being able to kill people by drone on the other side of the planet pisses people off is not a reason not to do it.  Sure your enemy would much rather have a chance, but who cares?

 

 

 

 

Also, to add to this, Hostage taking, no matter how misguided/ unsucessful,  has often been a tool used by those who want certain people released.

 

 

 

Killing him was definitely the best option.

[Jon the Hat]

The only thing that I think is a shame is that he didn't die more slowly in agony.

 

I don't know, I am inclined to think if you have been playing the invincible card and laughing that the all powerful US cant find you, being vaporised in an instant by a guy sat behind a PC in the US is quite fitting.  Evil ****er need to get done that is for sure.

[Thracian]

Worst thing about these cvnts is that they actually look forward to death, although I like to think there is a split second where it dawns on them that everything they believe is wrong.

 

Worst thing about these cvnts is that they actually look forward to death, although I like to think there is a split second where it dawns on them that everything they believe is wrong.

 

 

 

So the theory goes but how come IS have threatened anyone who shows the white flag with execution in one theatre of conflict...and have already executed some of their own soldiers for that reason in other areas?  

 

As for Ji-John his name has already been "glorified" in public far too much. Every public revenge mission such as this invites ever greater/more gruesome retaliation because the media is part of the battlefield. 

 

Claiming credit for killing such a person doesn't do anything to serve strategic aims nor does it help the next potential victims of IS. In many ways the least said in warfare the better. Either that or represent yourself in a brighter light than the enemy.         

[Alf Bentley]

Why would it have been better if we had captured him and put him on trial? Interested to the hear the arguments.  I can mainly see downsides.

 

From my side, if you take to the battlefield against the big boys then you take the risks that come with it.  This happened in a theatre of war.  Pathetic to say we should be arresting people on the battlefield.  This was absolutely the right thing to do.

 

The fact that being able to kill people by drone on the other side of the planet pisses people off is not a reason not to do it.  Sure your enemy would much rather have a chance, but who cares?

 

 

I presume that the counter-argument is that he was guilty of war crimes. So, under an ideal scenario, he would have been captured, tried at The Hague and given a life sentence.

It is the argument that "justice is better than war" and that the West would be showing itself to be on a higher moral plain by preferring justice to an act of war.

 

However, I cannot see how it would have been feasible in the circumstances, without sending in special forces and endangering their lives, which would have been crazy.  

If he'd come strolling across the Turkish border, he could have been sent to The Hague, but he didn't - and would doubtless have committed more atrocities if left alive where he was.

 

He was a murderous war criminal and active enemy in a war zone. He was also an international propaganda tool and recruiting sergeant for this savage death cult. So, killing him seems entirely reasonable in the circumstances.

 

It's not as if it's likely to drive anyone remotely reasonable into the arms of the Islamists either - a valid argument against some acts of aggression. The bloke publicly killed innocent non-combatants in cold blood. Only someone who already had a completely warped moral view would be attracted to the cause by such a person being targeted in a war zone. Might the killing discourage 1 or 2 hotheads from heading to Syria for "death or glory"? Maybe not, sadly, as their warped thinking often seems to embrace death, as Bovril says.

 

Nothing to rejoice about, but a perfectly reasonable action that makes the world a fractionally better place. Still a truly massive pile of crap to sort out, though.

[Thracian]

So the theory goes but how come IS have threatened anyone who shows the white flag with execution in one theatre of conflict...and have already executed some of their own soldiers for that reason in other areas?  

 

As for Ji-John his name has already been "glorified" in public far too much. Every public action such as this invites ever greater/more gruesome retaliation.

 

Claiming credit for killing such a person doesn't do anything to serve the war aims nor does it help the next potential victims of IS. In many ways the least said in warfare the better. Either that or represent yourself in a brighter light than the enemy.         

 

 

Sadly, after just getting home to news of the Paris shootings, I rest my case. Revenge only begets more of the same - and so predictably. So much about the West's reaction since 9/11 has been psychologically and even strategically naive.

 

Our foreign policy - and not just in the Middle East - needs major review at a time when we first need to understand who are spiritually capable of being our trusted friends - if trust is a word that still has credence - and who are not. Both across the world and within our midst as well.

 

Even now,  undoing the mistakes of recent years will take near genius. But, my life, attitudes have to change and change fast. 

[Rincewind]

Re Twitter, I agree there is a lot of left wing views  but then again I do not follow anyone  that has far right views. if I did I would need a new laptop every few weeks after throwing it  at the wall. i do however visit the Conservative page on Facebook just to see what is the next  brilliant thing Camerpn believes he has don. 

TBH  most of my contacts on Twitter are either City fans Secularists or atheists. There are some good posts on after when all the Hillbilly's make an appearance to tell non believers they are going to hell for not  believing in their kind and forgiving god. There are even some flat Earthers.

[Guest MattP]

There are still flat earthers?

[m4DD0gg]

Come on Russia bring the rain on those mother ****ers.