Labour's anti Semitic problems.

[Guest MattP]

A synogogue in her constituency tweeted her some support last night so she must have done some decent work in the community, although with a choice of Labour or Respect in that seat that could just be the lesser of two evils they are looking at for the Jewish community these days.

 

I still don't see how she'll be able to continue though, every week we now have a story about someone connected to the Labour leadership engaging in some anti semetic behaviour and if they are serious about stomping it out then she can't really remain on the backbenches.

 

There might even be a chance these comments were deliberate to take support away from Galloway (it was considered a close race despite the end result), give the casual impression to voters she's Labour but don't worry she still hates them, given who they have voted for in the past the area is clearly a hotbed of anti-Israeli sentiment.

 

Be interesting to see what the response is today, certain Cameron will mention it at PMQ's.

[Alf Bentley]

A synogogue in her constituency tweeted her some support last night so she must have done some decent work in the community, although with a choice of Labour or Respect in that seat that could just be the lesser of two evils they are looking at for the Jewish community these days.

 

I still don't see how she'll be able to continue though, every week we now have a story about someone connected to the Labour leadership engaging in some anti semetic behaviour and if they are serious about stomping it out then she can't really remain on the backbenches.

 

There might even be a chance these comments were deliberate to take support away from Galloway (it was considered a close race despite the end result), give the casual impression to voters she's Labour but don't worry she still hates them, given who they have voted for in the past the area is clearly a hotbed of anti-Israeli sentiment.

 

Be interesting to see what the response is today, certain Cameron will mention it at PMQ's.

 

 

That bit in bold seems unlikely if her posts date from 2014, as stated. She was only selected as parliamentary candidate a couple of months before the 2015 election after the prospective candidate stood down.

 

I don't see any need for her to stand down as an MP, provided she doesn't do or say anything similar again. She probably just brainlessly assumed that she was only addressing like-minded people with a deep (and at least partly justified) resentment of Israeli actions on Palestine. It's certainly a step too far to put flippant, potentially offensive communications about a whole nation in the public domain, though, whatever she thinks of Israeli policies.

 

Incidentally, will you be starting a thread entitled "Is the Conservative Party's problem with racism beyond repair?", so as to cover Boris' comments about Obama's absentee Kenyan Dad having caused him to be hostile to Britain and Tory attempts to smear Sadiq Khan as associated with Islamist extremism? 

[Guest MattP]

That bit in bold seems unlikely if her posts date from 2014, as stated. She was only selected as parliamentary candidate a couple of months before the 2015 election after the prospective candidate stood down.

 

I don't see any need for her to stand down as an MP, provided she doesn't do or say anything similar again. She probably just brainlessly assumed that she was only addressing like-minded people with a deep (and at least partly justified) resentment of Israeli actions on Palestine. It's certainly a step too far to put flippant, potentially offensive communications about a whole nation in the public domain, though, whatever she thinks of Israeli policies.

 

Incidentally, will you be starting a thread entitled "Is the Conservative Party's problem with racism beyond repair?", so as to cover Boris' comments about Obama's absentee Kenyan Dad having caused him to be hostile to Britain and Tory attempts to smear Sadiq Khan as associated with Islamist extremism? 

 

But in 2014 she must have been already been quite high up in the local Labour party, you don't just come from nowhere in the big two to secure nominations for General Elections, let alone in seats that you have a good chance in winning, the "Everything Hitler did is legal" post was as late as September as well in that year. (although in reality what really worries me is the fact she tagged 82! people into that comment, talk about company you keep!) It suggests problems with the vetting process that UKIP would blush at.

 

I also have a hard time believing she has changed her views so much in two years, we wouldn't believe me, you, Dangerous Tiger, Digitalalba etc on here if we claimed hateful opinions had changed in two years, I don't think we should give that much credit to an MP either, she's apologising now but she must surely have remembered these posts? Why didn't she go back and delete them when she got elected? She'll produce a huge apology soon but she's only doing so because she got caught and she's trying to save her job.

 

Regarding the last line, not at all, the Conservative party has had more than it's fair share of racism allegations over the years, feel free to do so though, it will make a good topic if there is enough of it about.

 

On Zac Goldsmith I think he'll have a lot of regrets in the way he has campaigned, he certainly should have made sure his own house was in order before he asked Khan to answer questions about the links he had, regarding Boris I have no problem with his comments whatsoever, Obama has written a book on how a lot of his Kenyan roots have shaped his political beliefs, it's not that absurd to claim they may have effected the way he views Britain given the history between the two countries.

[Guest MattP]

I didn't conjure up the thread title either, I didn't expect it to run into numerous pages, it was originally intended to just be a debate on the article in the original post where ex Labour member Dan Hodges asks the question I used for the ttle.

 

Happy to the mods to re-name it "Labour anti-semitism problems" if they can. @@Webbo

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Just like to mention... Having become aware of a second post published by Ms Shah referencing Nazi Germany, I would not condone that one as "satire" - that goes well beyond a line.

[Guest MattP]

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2016/apr/28/labour-has-serious-problem-with-antisemitism-peers-claim-politics-live

 

Numerous Labour MP's call for suspension of Ken Livingstone after he claimed "Hitler was a Zionist" this morning.

[foxy boxing]

the labour party has a massive problem now because jeremy corbyn is a massive islamic exremism sympathiser who condones hatred of jews and other religions and,lets not forget he calls hamas and hezbollah,people who kill people because of their twisted ideology friends.

[Guest MattP]

Red Ken being absolutely torn to bits by Brillo on Daily Politics, painful to watch.

[Rincewind]

the labour party has a massive problem now because jeremy corbyn is a massive islamic exremism sympathiser who condones hatred of jews and other religions and,lets not forget he calls hamas and hezbollah,people who kill people because of their twisted ideology friends.

You been reading the Sun again?

[Bryn]

I have a really poor understanding of antisemitism, I can't get my head round it at all. I can't understand any form of racism but I know the background to other forms far better, antisemitism just seems to be this omnipresent thing in history that has no basis in reality.

[Guest MattP]

Anyone interested in politics has to watch the Daily Politics today, pure theatre.

 

Andrew Neil destroyed what was left of Ken Livingstone's career in about 15 minutes, we then had the incredible sight of Red Ken trying to claim that deporting all Jews back to Israel isn't an anti-semetic belief.

 

They had footage in the corridors as well of John Mann shouting at Livingstone calling him a Nazi apologist, it looked like he was going to physically attack him at one point, then he turns up on camera to argue with him on a split screen, it was a WWE special

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Well that was the most astonishing Daily Politics I've seen... ever. I even ended up feeling sorry for Nick Clegg for first having to endure Ken Livingstone and John Mann and if that wasn't enough to then have Peter Hitchin rant on and on.

Should make "This Week" later tonight a good watch.

And if we were doubting whether there was a problem in the Labour Party on this subject - I think today has shown there is. It's not just the headline comments, it's the below the line comments on news items where there's a flood of defensive and angry positioning on the subject and it just makes you go "wow!"

[Guest MattP]

It is good people in the party now seem to realise they have a problem rather than trying to blame it on smears, Tories and the Murdoch press.

News in last hour is an aide to Naz Shah has been suspended (Facebook post found claiming Jews are behind IS) and Ken Livingstone has been suspended from the party.

The inquiries will be interesting, if they are going to claim to be seriously about tackling this I'm not sure any of them can survive, even if the apologies are genuine.

[Darkon84]

According to 'deletedmyMPs' an account that aggregates tweets deleted by MPs, Dianne Abbott the shadow international development secretary and a leftwing ally of Ken Livingstone, has been deleting tweets she posted in the past expressing support for Livingstone. They were retweets of tweets backing Livingstone for election to Labour’s national executive committee.

[Guest MattP]

According to 'deletedmyMPs' an account that aggregates tweets deleted by MPs, Dianne Abbott the shadow international development secretary and a leftwing ally of Ken Livingstone, has been deleting tweets she posted in the past expressing support for Livingstone. They were retweets of tweets backing Livingstone for election to Labour’s national executive committee.

 

Remember when she deleted that "white people like to divide and rule" tweet after it had already been shared 1,500 times? Unfortunately for her when you say things like "Chairman Mao did more good than bad" on live television most people aren't going to take you seriously no matter how much you try and change the past.

 

Where is Corbyn btw? Surely he's got to make a statement given we have now had an MP and a member of the NEC suspended in the last 12 hours?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Grimsby I understand - but they don't have telephones do they, let alone the Internet!?!

(I'm allowed to be Grimsbyist yes?)

[Trav Le Bleu]

But in 2014 she must have been already been quite high up in the local Labour party, you don't just come from nowhere in the big two to secure nominations for General Elections, let alone in seats that you have a good chance in winning, the "Everything Hitler did is legal" post was as late as September as well in that year. (although in reality what really worries me is the fact she tagged 82! people into that comment, talk about company you keep!) It suggests problems with the vetting process that UKIP would blush at.

 

I also have a hard time believing she has changed her views so much in two years, we wouldn't believe me, you, Dangerous Tiger, Digitalalba etc on here if we claimed hateful opinions had changed in two years, I don't think we should give that much credit to an MP either, she's apologising now but she must surely have remembered these posts? Why didn't she go back and delete them when she got elected? She'll produce a huge apology soon but she's only doing so because she got caught and she's trying to save her job.

 

Regarding the last line, not at all, the Conservative party has had more than it's fair share of racism allegations over the years, feel free to do so though, it will make a good topic if there is enough of it about.

 

On Zac Goldsmith I think he'll have a lot of regrets in the way he has campaigned, he certainly should have made sure his own house was in order before he asked Khan to answer questions about the links he had, regarding Boris I have no problem with his comments whatsoever, Obama has written a book on how a lot of his Kenyan roots have shaped his political beliefs, it's not that absurd to claim they may have effected the way he views Britain given the history between the two countries.

 

Everything Hitler did WAS legal.

 

Seriously, some people's grammar!

 

 

 

Aside from that, I've heard on the radio people saying that criticism of Israel is anti-semetic... but is it? By that measure, criticism of any state is racism, surely? Obviously some people have gone too far, but as always, it seems to be counted by people going entirely in the opposite direction.

[ousefox]

I didn't manage to catch it. What's he done wrong? Ken mentioned something about Hitler wanting to deport Jews originally? What was the context?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Everything Hitler did WAS legal.

 

Aside from that, I've heard on the radio people saying that criticism of Israel is anti-semetic... but is it? By that measure, criticism of any state is racism, surely? Obviously some people have gone too far, but as always, it seems to be counted by people going entirely in the opposite direction.

Trav - don't think this is the time to go here really, but I would highlight this;

It is fine to critiscise the state of Isreal for political decisions, so long as it is clear that is who you are criticising - but linking those views to inflammatory ideas or using terminology to tarnish an entire race as part of that is unacceptable.

It's why attacking ISIS for what they do is fine, but associating all Muslims to the acts ISIS carry out is not.

[Trav Le Bleu]

Trav - don't think this is the time to go here really, but I would highlight this;

It is fine to critiscise the state of Isreal for political decisions, so long as it is clear that is who you are criticising - but linking those views to inflammatory ideas or using terminology to tarnish an entire race as part of that is unacceptable.

It's why attacking ISIS for what they do is fine, but associating all Muslims to the acts ISIS carry out is not.

 

No, that is what I was saying really - People were saying that criticism of Israel (the state) is anti-semitic, when clearly they are different things. It would be the same a saying that criticism of Iran is Islamophobia.

[Sharpe's Fox]

I didn't manage to catch it. What's he done wrong? Ken mentioned something about Hitler wanting to deport Jews originally? What was the context?

He said before the Final Solution was thought up Hitlers plan was to move them to Palestine. I don't know if thats true but it was pretty stupid to even bring it up he wasn't even asked about it, he just said for no reason like a 12 year old arguing in a YouTube comment section

[ousefox]

He said before the Final Solution was thought up Hitlers plan was to move them to Palestine. I don't know if thats true but it was pretty stupid to even bring it up he wasn't even asked about it, he just said for no reason like a 12 year old arguing in a YouTube comment section

Yeah just looked at the quote and it was a bit of a random thing to bring up. I'll watch C4 news but everyone seems to be going mad about this and I'm not really sure where Livingstone's been anti-Semitic.... purely because he's defending Shah?

[Claridge]

Corbyn and labour.Racist scum

Where's all the lefties on here attacking the worst major political party the countries ever seen?

[Guest MattP]

Yeah just looked at the quote and it was a bit of a random thing to bring up. I'll watch C4 news but everyone seems to be going mad about this and I'm not really sure where Livingstone's been anti-Semitic.... purely because he's defending Shah?

 

He claimed Hitler was a Zionist before he "went a bit mad" - he also then has been on a huge media campaign defending Naz Shah saying her comments weren't anti semitic, which is strange given she has already apologised for her "anti semetic" remarks.

 

Alan Johnson as usual nailed it on This Week last night, we don't know if Labour has an anti-semitic problem, but we do know they have a Ken Livingstone problem, whatever problem they have he can come along and make it ten times worse, of all the decisions Corbyn has cocked up allowing and encouraging this idiot to become a public face of the party again has to be right near the top.

[Alf Bentley]

He said before the Final Solution was thought up Hitlers plan was to move them to Palestine. I don't know if thats true but it was pretty stupid to even bring it up he wasn't even asked about it, he just said for no reason like a 12 year old arguing in a YouTube comment section

 

 

This.

 

What an absolute car crash.

 

Naz Shah, an otherwise promising MP, was found to have acted like a 16-year-old on Twitter shortly before becoming an MP. She was deservedly disciplined. She does seem to recognise the seriousness of her error (subject to there being no repeats) and the head of the local synagogue has spoken up for her. That does suggest to me that she was misguidedly trying to fit in with the "right on, let's all hate Israel, Israel is the new South Africa" brigade, not actively anti-semitic.

 

Then Livingston piles in with his offensive and ridiculously pedantic pontification, comparing Zionism to early Nazi policies....in that context. Actually, most 12-year-olds wouldn't be that stupid.

 

There's plenty to criticise about Israeli policy under this and previous governments: decades breaching UN resolutions, illegal settlements, disproportionate use of military power, impoverishment of Palestinian communities, Zionist ideology in practice.... But guess what, there are many Israelis who disagree with that, too, not to mention Jews in other countries. There's no need - and no excuse - for blanket condemnations of a whole country or implied condemnations of an ethnic group. The historical context of the Holocaust dictates that justified criticisms of Israeli policies need to be worded very carefully.

 

There's sometimes an expectation among leftists who don't talk to a wide enough range of people that they should adopt a series of knee-jerk stances ("support the Palestinians, hate Israel") to gain approval by "the group". That's understandable in a 19-year-old student activist - and happens on the right, too - but you'd expect people to start growing up after that, questioning their own assumptions, being aware of how other social groups think etc. How old is Livingston? 50 years too old for offensive, sub-juvenile crap like this. That John Mann is a w-anker, too, mind: pursuing a sectarian agenda and launching into public abuse - Livingston deserved abuse, but privately.

 

The state of politics is unbelievably bad all round just now. Normally, we'd be looking at the Tories as a car crash: fiasco of a budget, split down the middle over Europe, scandals over tax, at war with doctors, starting another needless war with schools, then partly backtracking. This should be a moment of political opportunity for Labour and other parties. Instead, what is the vision or issue that Labour is highlighting? Fvcked if I know, they seem more interested in an infantile civil war - with no prospect of it ending soon, given the divergence of membership/leadership and parliamentary party. The Greens seriously under-performed at the election, the Lib Dems were decimated and are now led by a boy scout leader and UKIP is a narrow 1 or 2-issue party treading water. I'd seriously worry about the security of democracy if there was a major economic crisis (entirely possible for various reasons). We don't seem to have any credible parties - and Labour is rapidly becoming the least credible of the lot, sadly.