Labour's anti Semitic problems.

[MC Prussian]

I'll reply to Alf when I'm on the pc tomorrow.

Good segment now on the Sunday politics on the issues I keep being criticised for regarding this.

Direct answer from John Mann, a Labour MP to whether Labour has a problem with antisemitism - "Yes, of course it does"

 

Wasn't this in particular to the criticism of Jeremy Corbyn tolerating and even allowing Gerry Downing back in - a Labour man who has posted some troublesome comments on his personal website?

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/news/1.708036

 

My problem with your argumentation is mainly because you - from a right-wing point of view - make this look like a problem for the Left only, even though the Conservatives have a longer history or dabbling with racism and anti-semitism - two states of mind that don't have a place in politics. It's just cool to hit on the Left now because the Right want to secure votes from the (conservative/orthodox) Jewish community and are desperate to distance themselves from the UKIP.

 

To balance it out, the same allegations thrown at Labour hold up against the Tories:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservative-party-is-still-racist-says-a-former-adviser-derek-laud-9985757.html

[Rincewind]

Was that quote complete or did he expand on the reply to explain why?  The question is not something that requires a simple yes or no answer. There are very likely to be members of the Labour party that are racist as are there are members of the Tory party that are racist. In fact anyone who is racist has the problem. Insecurity and paranoia comes to mind. I have noticed a little on here. No names mentioned.

[Claridge]

There certainly used to be an anti right wing bias on here when I first joined. The only people who'd admit to be being tory were me and Phube and we had to make a joke of it. The vilification of anyone who voiced any right wing views was pretty awful to be honest.

 

It's a lot less confrontational on here now and that's a good thing. I will admit there is a slight right wing majority on these threads now.

I think people are starting to feel more confident in admitting to being right wing.

The last labour government and the election of Jeremy Corbyn has certainly helped people not to hide their views out of fear of being labelled a racist or not caring which was often the lefts argument.

Also the fact that the obsession with multi-culturalism has alienated many people with its perceived anti-Britishness

[Thracian]

I got your point thrac but you were making it too personal. Ken has many faults but that's not what this thread is about.

It wasn't intended to be personal. I just got fed up of the suggestion that Labour helped the poor, capitalists didn't and that Ken was the victim of an uncaring situation when I knew for a fact he'd had the offer of help.

Having someone else imply that I was a liar as a pathetic defence of a standpoint irritated and so did reference to food banks.

There are all well and good but they don't solve anything but the localised problem - food is still needed next day/week etc and the ones after that. What's needed are things to make deprived people feel useful, proud of themselves and worth enough reward to keep their head up. Anyway, as I said, I'm out of it. Marxist-style hand-holding never impresses me much - it's doesn't help people value themselves.

Anyway, like I said, I'm out of here and, when the world really mucks up, and when the proverbial really hits the fans, I'll think of how surely it could all have been prevented.

[leicsmac]

It wasn't intended to be personal. I just got fed up of the suggestion that Labour helped the poor, capitalists didn't and that Ken was the victim of an uncaring situation when I knew for a fact he'd had the offer of help.

Having someone else imply that I was a liar as a pathetic defence of a standpoint irritated and so did reference to food banks.

There are all well and good but they don't solve anything but the localised problem - food is still needed next day/week etc and the ones after that. What's needed are things to make deprived people feel useful, proud of themselves and worth enough reward to keep their head up. Anyway, as I said, I'm out of it. Marxist-style hand-holding never impresses me much - it's doesn't help people value themselves.

Anyway, like I said, I'm out of here and, when the world really mucks up, and when the proverbial really hits the fans, I'll think of how surely it could all have been prevented.

 

I look at the actions of demagogues and nationalists all around the world, and I think exactly the same thing. Those on here who have seen me posting know that.

 

Just goes to show that it's all a matter of subjective perspective.

[Webbo]

It wasn't intended to be personal. I just got fed up of the suggestion that Labour helped the poor, capitalists didn't and that Ken was the victim of an uncaring situation when I knew for a fact he'd had the offer of help.

Having someone else imply that I was a liar as a pathetic defence of a standpoint irritated and so did reference to food banks.

There are all well and good but they don't solve anything but the localised problem - food is still needed next day/week etc and the ones after that. What's needed are things to make deprived people feel useful, proud of themselves and worth enough reward to keep their head up. Anyway, as I said, I'm out of it. Marxist-style hand-holding never impresses me much - it's doesn't help people value themselves.

Anyway, like I said, I'm out of here and, when the world really mucks up, and when the proverbial really hits the fans, I'll think of how surely it could all have been prevented.

The secret, which it took me a while to learn, is not to take Ken seriously.

[Wymsey]

The secret, which it took me a while to learn, is not to take Ken seriously.

He's alright, but think his problem is that he can be sarcastic in some posts and some members can't see that.

[Carl the Llama]

I think people are starting to feel more confident in admitting to being right wing.

The last labour government and the election of Jeremy Corbyn has certainly helped people not to hide their views out of fear of being labelled a racist or not caring which was often the lefts argument.

Also the fact that the obsession with multi-culturalism has alienated many people with its perceived anti-Britishness

Reading this thread's making me tear up:  The poor, marginalised right-wing have finally found the courage to speak up and make generalisations smearing fully one half of the political spectrum on an internet forum. (Irony intended.)

 

It truly is a year for wonderful underdog stories. 

[Strokes]

There certainly used to be an anti right wing bias on here when I first joined. The only people who'd admit to be being tory were me and Phube and we had to make a joke of it. The vilification of anyone who voiced any right wing views was pretty awful to be honest.

It's a lot less confrontational on here now and that's a good thing. I will admit there is a slight right wing majority on these threads now.

Yeah i remember coming on here and being branded a racist by daggers for an anti immigration post. I was quite alot younger then and i think it probably could have been a bit naughty but it wasnt racist. He and a few others certainly put me in my place.

[Claridge]

Reading this thread's making me tear up: The poor, marginalised right-wing have finally found the courage to speak up and make generalisations smearing fully one half of the political spectrum on an internet forum. (Irony intended.)

It truly is a year for wonderful underdog stories.

It surely is,who could of predicted Cameron's amazing victory and lcfcs premiership parade.

Welling up myself

[DJ Barry Hammond]

and so did reference to food banks.

There are all well and good but they don't solve anything but the localised problem - food is still needed next day/week etc and the ones after that.

What's needed are things to make deprived people feel useful, proud of themselves and worth enough reward to keep their head up.

Believe it or not, I have first hand experience of using a food bank as recently as Friday so feel compelled to respond - guess I will need to set the scene first though.

Some of you may have spotted a recent post of mine in the depression section and well this week things came to an ugly head - an argument to many with my mother resulted in me storming out the house with nothing on me but a bottle of water and a desire to take enough Paracetamol to endure an eternal sleep.

Fortunately as I got to around the 20th tablet i was having doubts, plonked myself in front of a police station and was assisted in getting to hospital - and spent the next 36 hours attached to various drips.

Whilst there, I was informed I was no longer welcome to return 'home' to my mothers, sending me into a spinning of head of 'what the hell do I do?' I had about 70p on me and no access to any further funds at that point so it was a desperate, desperate, situation.

Fortunately my support worker picked me up, took me to my local council and after about 5/6 hours they had secured me some emergency accommodation and provided me with a food bank voucher to use the following day.

So the following morning, I set out early to walk the 5 miles to this food bank*, already physically tired, emotionally drained and generally messed up - oh and just a tad hungry having not eaten since being discharged the morning before.

*ironically it was fairly local to where I was living, I went to School / played football right next to it - but my temporary shelter was in a central location

Anncious, not sure what to expect, feeling down right ashamed of having to ask for a hand out, the volunteers there were warm and welcoming... And naturally as I sat down asked what my situation was - and so I did my best to explain inbetween outbreaks of tears and raw emotion.

And yet, I had only spent 30 minutes in the place, but by that time conversation had moved on to a point where I could laugh and joke - and left with a smile on my face, a much more positive outlook (despite still being in the shit!), so very grateful for the service they provided but not feeling anywhere near as ashamed as I was feeling as I went in.

I guess I reasoned to myself that what I was providing in exchange was that positive feeling a person gets when you provide someone with constructive help... And in this case the actual food was the smallest part of that help being offered.

Of much more value was having the two ladies listen to me without judgement, offering bits of advice, reassuring me there are still plenty of well intentioned people in the world - and it's something I will forever be grateful for.

So hopefully that goes to show food banks do have a positive role to play in society, they can be much more than you have alluded to... and maybe Thracian, you'll be willing to pop down to your local one with a donation of supplies or physical support (if you haven't already).

It's certainly something I will look to do once I get myself back on my feet and heading in a positive direction again.

[Rincewind]

I have never said the left are the only ones that care. In fact I have said the opposite.  Has nobody noticed that if anyone defends the less well off they are branded as looney lefties? I have always said this is not the case. Defending the underprivileged and not using them as scapegoats is just the right thing to do as far as as I am concerned and has nothing to do with politics.

We are all of the same race. The Human race. There is good and bad all over the world not just sections that you may not approve of because of where they come from or what social class they belong to.Some of the most generous and caring people I have met or known have ben or are homeless and I am sure it is the same for the wealthiest who are just as caring.

I do not intend to come across as sarcastic but some posts are unbelievable. I once shared a thread about two ex Man Utd footballers opening a house for the homeless with the organisers responsible and their response was 'Wow that is taking bigotry to a new level'  I shared because one post suggested that the footballers in question would regret it when the house was full of druggies and alcoholics. I assumed that it was a joke but can never be sure with some people.

[Rincewind]

Re food banks. As DJ has said you are given vouchers either by social services or support workers. You are only able to receive a certain amount in a given period. The idea that you can turn up and walk away with a bag of groceries is a myth. There are conditions in order to receive them. After two to three visits there are advisers available to give support.

The use of foodbanks have risen in recent years coinciding with the rise in sanctions of JSA, the bedroom tax and reduction in benefits. Although I believe the benefit system has to be addressed I think the way it is being approached is wrong and unfair to those that it is not intended to target. 

[Guest MattP]

But Matt devotes a lot of time and effort to making posts denigrating the Labour Party or the Left in general. It's reasonable to ask why. Maybe he'll explain - or state his own record of political affiliations? Though he's obviously under no obligation.

 

Sometimes he expresses valid, even well-argued opinions about policy or issues.  I even agree with some of his posts. Often, though, they're based on obscure individuals or events, or opinions expressed decades ago. Maybe I should keep responding in kind (as I did by mentioning the Tory bullying scandal)? Maybe I should start a thread entitled "Is the Conservative Party's problem with racism beyond repair?" - or "When will Cameron & Farage stop beating their wives?"? Maybe I should keep posting comments made years ago by Tory/UKIP politicians or advisers? Or highlight every time some obscure Tory or UKIP councillor/activist is involved in a scandal or makes a stupid comment? Or harp on about seating arrangements at UKIP meetings?

 

Apologies for the lateness, Cheltenham! - No problem with my political affiliations, Labour party in early teens (parents) excited by Tony Blair, turned towards the Liberals in the my early 20's, moved across to Conservative Eurosceptism in my mid 20's and have been there ever since. Never been a member of a party, have attending meetings for UKIP, Conservative and Lib Dems as a guest.

 

As for the point about Tory and UKIP I'll repeat myself, if there was a surge of wife beating in the Tories or segregated seating at a UKIP conference you would be absolutely right to bring it up without fear of being accused of smear, as Webbo has said it really does look like some people are starting to try and play the victim card here to try and cover things up, the Tory bullying scandal was huge and despite it only involving 4-5 people it was correct that it has been such a big story and people were forced to resign over it.

 

Whether they want to admit it or not the views of some new members are a big story is the issue, it's been on the Daily Politics virtually every day, it was a bought up on the Moral maze, it's been in the newspapers and was even a subject on This Week, their own MP's have been on television to tell the World their own party now has a portion of people who have a problem with Jews. It clearly is and it won't go away just by trying to claim anyone who brings it up is smearing.

 

The problem though isn't the readmittance - mistakes happen and the party has been very quickly to suspend or kick out these people as soon they have found out their beliefs, the real problem is that a lot of these anti-semites now see Labour as the party for them because of the leadership, if Corbyn can't address that this problem won't go away.

[Buce]

Apologies for the lateness, Cheltenham! - No problem with my political affiliations, Labour party in early teens (parents) excited by Tony Blair, turned towards the Liberals in the my early 20's, moved across to Conservative Eurosceptism in my mid 20's and have been there ever since. Never been a member of a party, have attending meetings for UKIP, Conservative and Lib Dems as a guest.

As for the point about Tory and UKIP I'll repeat myself, if there was a surge of wife beating in the Tories or segregated seating at a UKIP conference you would be absolutely right to bring it up without fear of being accused of smear, as Webbo has said it really does look like some people are starting to try and play the victim card here to try and cover things up, the Tory bullying scandal was huge and despite it only involving 4-5 people it was correct that it has been such a big story and people were forced to resign over it.

Whether they want to admit it or not the views of some new members are a big story is the issue, it's been on the Daily Politics virtually every day, it was a bought up on the Moral maze, it's been in the newspapers and was even a subject on This Week, their own MP's have been on television to tell the World their own party now has a portion of people who have a problem with Jews. It clearly is and it won't go away just by trying to claim anyone who brings it up is smearing.

The problem though isn't the readmittance - mistakes happen and the party has been very quickly to suspend or kick out these people as soon they have found out their beliefs, the real problem is that a lot of these anti-semites now see Labour as the party for them because of the leadership, if Corbyn can't address that this problem won't go away.

I understand that Jimmy Saville (sp?) was attracted to the Tory party.

Are we to draw any conclusions from that?

[Guest MattP]

I understand that Jimmy Saville (sp?) was attracted to the Tory party.

 

Was he? I haven't seen any evidence of that.

 

If he was allowed to take out a membership, work or donate to the party despite them knowing what he did then absolutely you should be bashing the Tories for it.

[David Guiza]

Was he? I haven't seen any evidence of that.

 

If he was allowed to take out a membership, work or donate to the party despite them knowing what he did then absolutely you should be bashing the Tories for it.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/dec/28/jimmy-savile-access-margaret-thatcher I've heard numerous things about his relationship with Thatcher and rumours of cover ups etc due to his charity work.

[Buce]

Was he? I haven't seen any evidence of that.

If he was allowed to take out a membership, work or donate to the party despite them knowing what he did then absolutely you should be bashing the Tories for it.

I think you're missing my point.

I'm sure someone with a greater knowledge of political history than myself (Alf springs to mind) could compile a long list of vile, obnoxious people who found/find the Tories as a perfect match for their views. Are we to blame the Tories for attracting these people?

[Alf Bentley]

I think you're missing my point.

I'm sure someone with a greater knowledge of political history than myself (Alf springs to mind) could compile a long list of vile, obnoxious people who found/find the Tories as a perfect match for their views. Are we to blame the Tories for attracting these people?

 

 

I have a long list of work to do (for a change) and a long list of people to call about my Dad's care, so won't be compiling any other long lists today! 

 

I agree with your point, though. I'd much prefer to discuss the policies or political actions of the different parties, not which scumbags they attract (and they all do) or which obscure councillor/supporter/adviser has said something stupid or done something corrupt, provided such people are dealt with appropriately. If Labour allow men and women to sit separately in Muslim-dominated areas, I don't care so long as they're not supporting Islamic State or imposing segregation; if it encourages Muslim women to take part, I approve. Likewise, I'm more interested in what Cameron or Boris want to do with tax and spending than whether they trashed restaurants for the Bullingdon Club.

 

It's mildly interesting that Thatcher was great mates with Savile or that Blair was best buddies with Berlusconi, but their policies/actions are surely more relevant? If Thatcher facilitated Savile's offending in any way, or Blair facilitated Berlusconi's corruption or Bunga Bunga parties, then it becomes relevant (Jowell's husband was implicated like that, as I recall, but not Blair).

 

Matt, I'll try to reply to your response later, but it might take a couple of days (work today, visiting Dad tomorrow). I'd assumed that you were probably at Cheltenham. Hanging out with Hamer, I expect.....though not in that sense, I hope!  I mean, I hope that no urine was poured from balconies. You reserve your urine misuse for the homeless, as I recall? 

[Fox92]

 

[Guest MattP]

I think you're missing my point.

I'm sure someone with a greater knowledge of political history than myself (Alf springs to mind) could compile a long list of vile, obnoxious people who found/find the Tories as a perfect match for their views. Are we to blame the Tories for attracting these people?

 

I think you are missing the point, the subject depends what the views are that's attracting them. I doubt Jimmy was really attracted to the Tories (if he was) because they were soft on pedophiles so it's silly to make that comparison. I'm sure he'd have been closer to certain others parties giving the links to PIE.

A problem Labour has appears to be open anti semites joining up with it probably due to its leadership embracing some absolutely appalling Islamist groups, some of whom have even stated they want Israel wiped off the map, plus sharing platforms with holocaust deniers.

It's obviously a small minority but given what has already happened at a couple of young party groups it's something they need to get on top of.

[Guest MattP]

I have a long list of work to do (for a change) and a long list of people to call about my Dad's care, so won't be compiling any other long lists today! 

 

Matt, I'll try to reply to your response later, but it might take a couple of days (work today, visiting Dad tomorrow). I'd assumed that you were probably at Cheltenham. Hanging out with Hamer, I expect.....though not in that sense, I hope!  I mean, I hope that no urine was poured from balconies. You reserve your urine misuse for the homeless, as I recall? 

 

I'm ducking out for the same reason, also bit of work to do which is fortunate at the minute given how little I have!

 

I'm not at Cheltenham this year, the incident you talk about is exactly the reason why I don't bother with the main festival anymore, what was a wondeful celebration of British and Irish racing has now turned into a parade of idiots making shows of themselves (The irish attendance used to be 40,000 as well twenty years back, it's below 5,000 now for exactly the same reason I don't go) the knowledgeable crowd are few and far between and it's now full of drunken idiots dressing up like Peaky Blinders taking selfies all day without really any interest in the racing at all. The tragedy of something turning fashionable.

 

If they don't get on top of this with a dress and strict code of behaviour it will be finished, it's gone from being one of the beautiful cultural events the country has to offer to looking like closing time on the strip in Magaluf.

[Finnaldo]

I'm ducking out for the same reason, also bit of work to do which is fortunate at the minute given how little I have!

 

I'm not at Cheltenham this year, the incident you talk about is exactly the reason why I don't bother with the main festival anymore, what was a wondeful celebration of British and Irish racing has now turned into a parade of idiots making shows of themselves (The irish attendance used to be 40,000 as well twenty years back, it's below 5,000 now for exactly the same reason I don't go) the knowledgeable crowd are few and far between and it's now full of drunken idiots dressing up like Peaky Blinders taking selfies all day without really any interest in the racing at all. The tragedy of something turning fashionable.

 

If they don't get on top of this with a dress and strict code of behaviour it will be finished, it's gone from being one of the beautiful cultural events the country has to offer to looking like closing time on the strip in Magaluf.

 

Yep, couldn't really expect much more when the lad culture gets in grubby hands on something. Apprentice bricklayers spending a month's wages on a Topman suit, brogues and a Rolex. Thinking they're acting gentlemanly but forgetting the most important thing about being a Gentleman: not being a cvnt.    

[Webbo]

 

I thought that looked fake.

 

http://www.realwire.com/realResource.asp?ReleaseID=11238&d=w&name=Jimmy1%2Ebmp&title=Sir+Jimmy+with+his+California

 

http://www.realwire.com/releases/volkswagen-fixed-it-for-jim

[Fox92]

I thought that looked fake.

 

http://www.realwire.com/realResource.asp?ReleaseID=11238&d=w&name=Jimmy1%2Ebmp&title=Sir+Jimmy+with+his+California

 

http://www.realwire.com/releases/volkswagen-fixed-it-for-jim

 

I think it is tbf but it was linked from the Telegraph website so I dunno.