Labour's anti Semitic problems.

[Darkon84]

What an absolute plank . There was no need for him to pipe up with anything at all. The moment he was allowed to take a decent seat in the party, it was obvious that something like this was going to happen.

Oddly enough, however, it was only last year when Benjamin Netanyahu was speaking at the Zionist Convention and saying the same things, that Hitler originally simply wanted to move the Jews to Palestine and Jerusalem, until the he met the Mufti of Jerusalem at the time, Al Husseini who convinced him to just exterminate them instead. Though, this could quite easily, just be to stir up tension against Muslims again.

 

EDIT: Here's the clip  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ju1w-iDR0o

[Guest MattP]

Great post Alf.

 

Assuming results are as bad as expected for Labour on Thursday, what do you think of action should be? Should MP's start to make moves to remove Corbyn or is it just not worth it because of the backlash they'll receive from the new members?

 

I'm interested in the views of Labour members or people who voted in the leadership election. @@Bilo

[Thracian]

It is good people in the party now seem to realise they have a problem rather than trying to blame it on smears, Tories and the Murdoch press.

News in last hour is an aide to Naz Shah has been suspended (Facebook post found claiming Jews are behind IS) and Ken Livingstone has been suspended from the party.

The inquiries will be interesting, if they are going to claim to be seriously about tackling this I'm not sure any of them can survive, even if the apologies are genuine.

 

 

The Labour Party is an abomination - and hardly recognisable as once representative of hard-working British people and supposedly sincere, fair and caring values.

 

The sooner it is wound up the better and this only gives further credence to a point I've made so many times.

 

Working British tax-payers - and those thousands left on the scrapheap by the impact of New Labour's social engineering - deserve better.

 

Labour's being ravaged from within until its credence now is riddled way beyond curing.  

[Alf Bentley]

Assuming results are as bad as expected for Labour on Thursday, what do you think of action should be? Should MP's start to make moves to remove Corbyn or is it just not worth it because of the backlash they'll receive from the new members?

 

I'm interested in the views of Labour members or people who voted in the leadership election. @@Bilo

 

 

I don't think there should be a knee-jerk response to the local election results, even if they are very bad.

 

Any change should wait at least until after the EU referendum, when it will also become clearer what the Tory response will be to the outcome of the referendum. There could well be chaos in the Tory ranks, too.

 

However, regardless of that, Labour needs to be presenting a vision. If elected in 2020, what would be its mission? Concentrating on certain policy areas would be OK, so long as voters could answer the question "What would a Labour government be for?" A lot of Miliband's problem last time was that his policies were too fragmentary. Corbyn's policies also seem fragmentary but, even worse, they generally just seem to respond to events or Tory policies. They need to set the political agenda more.

 

I've no idea whether Corbyn has such a vision/mission - or whether colleagues are encouraging him to develop one. If so, I don't see any evidence of it yet.

 

Unless Corbyn is able to seize some control of the agenda by the summer/autumn, rather than reacting to it, he should go. That doesn't mean a return to New Labour. There are a lot of issues that could feed into quite a left-wing vision that could win widespread support: reducing burgeoning inequality; stimulating investment in affordable housing; supporting new industries as old ones are phased out; expanding apprenticeships; funding better care for the elderly; reducing over-centralised over-regulation of health & education, while maintaining funding etc. Some of those might necessitate difficult decisions on tax or on other spending. If Labour does continue to do badly under Corbyn, maybe a better leader would be capable of building some such platform with enough appeal to keep a decent level of support among left-inclined activists while appealing more to uncommitted voters.

 

Can't say I'm optimistic. Though the Tories could easily end up in a massive mess within a couple of months, too.

[Guest MattP]

What an absolute plank . There was no need for him to pipe up with anything at all. The moment he was allowed to take a decent seat in the party, it was obvious that something like this was going to happen.

 

In terms of what Ken said regarding Hitler wanting to put Jews all in one place he was right, to suggest he's a Zionist though for wanting that is stretching the definition of the word If Nigel Farage came out today and said that all British Jews should be deported to Israel I have a sneaky feeling people might call him a racist rather than a Zionist.

 

As Alf has touched on, it's incredible, he's about 65 and he's still playing that "Hitler, Hitler, Hitler" politics that most students have even grown out of.

[-MaTaN-]

Alright, this story is now big in Israel too haha.
For the ones who are asking themselves - Why make such a big deal out of it? Well, the Jewish people have yet to overcome the Holocaust trauma which was led by Anti Semitism. 6 Million were gone, The Jewish population in the entire world is 14 Million atm. Those numbers are still insane.
The Holocaust is still playing a huge part in the Jewish world, And whenever someone is talking about that or making any Anti Semitic comments, He must be very careful.
 

[Guest Bilo]

Livingstone has form for this, let's not forget that fact. I remember being astonished he wasn't expelled for likening a Jewish journalist to a concentration camp guard, and that was a decade ago.

I'm feeling rather disheartened about all this, and not just because it was what I predicted and feared would happen last summer.

The fact that McDonnell had to be the person to make it clear that antisemitism wasn't anathema to the party, and some of the newcomers attacked him as a Zionist shill for doing so, worries me.

This battle isn't ending soon.

[DJ Barry Hammond]

Livingstone has form for this, let's not forget that fact. I remember being astonished he wasn't expelled for likening a Jewish journalist to a concentration camp guard, and that was a decade ago.

I'm feeling rather disheartened about all this, and not just because it was what I predicted and feared would happen last summer.

The fact that McDonnell had to be the person to make it clear that antisemitism wasn't anathema to the party, and some of the newcomers attacked him as a Zionist shill for doing so, worries me.

This battle isn't ending soon.

In terms of Livingstone (and this is not trying to excuse his actions or words in any way), he reminds me of your typical racist grandparent, where they say things that in an earlier time no one would have batted an eyelid about and they've simply not moved with the times.

He also casts the shadow of a lonely man - you could see in his face he was actually enjoying talking to people. I don't think the fact the reaction was pretty hostile or what he was saying was really going through his head at all, because when he'd stopped being racist he was talking with the reporters about what he was going to do with his day (moving some newts apparently). It could be the case, to coin one of Ken's own phrases "he needs some pyschological help?"

But as I say, that shouldn't excuse him at all and the more shocking thing for me was seeing the sheer number of comments on sites like the Daily Mail and the Guardian defending what Ken was saying - I suppose the comments do have a uniting appeal to both the hard left and the hard right, but it was just so sad to think our society holds so many people of this type.

[GaelicFox]

Antisemitism and anti-Zionism are not the same.

Zionism is a political ideology which has always been contested within Jewish life since it emerged in 1897, and it is entirely legitimate for non-Jews as well as Jews to express opinions about it, whether positive or negative.

Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Zionists are Jews

Labour is an anti-Zionist movement and party and long may it do so

Our Palestinian friends need support and solidarity

[GaelicFox]

In terms of Livingstone (and this is not trying to excuse his actions or words in any way), he reminds me of your typical racist grandparent, where they say things that in an earlier time no one would have batted an eyelid about and they've simply not moved with the times.

He also casts the shadow of a lonely man - you could see in his face he was actually enjoying talking to people. I don't think the fact the reaction was pretty hostile or what he was saying was really going through his head at all, because when he'd stopped being racist he was talking with the reporters about what he was going to do with his day (moving some newts apparently). It could be the case, to coin one of Ken's own phrases "he needs some pyschological help?"

But as I say, that shouldn't excuse him at all and the more shocking thing for me was seeing the sheer number of comments on sites like the Daily Mail and the Guardian defending what Ken was saying - I suppose the comments do have a uniting appeal to both the hard left and the hard right, but it was just so sad to think our society holds so many people of this type.

He isn't racist , the man is political legend and speaks the truth , the Zionist press loves s communist to bash , red Ken this week and Putin next week

Despite the fact that Ken is a thoroughly decent man and Putin the greatest political leader of a world superpower at present

[GaelicFox]

Great post Alf.

Assuming results are as bad as expected for Labour on Thursday, what do you think of action should be? Should MP's start to make moves to remove Corbyn or is it just not worth it because of the backlash they'll receive from the new members?

I'm interested in the views of Labour members or people who voted in the leadership election. @@Bilo

I'm a unison officer and a labour member

Jeremy is the greatest positive to happen to the party in decade

Long term yes he will need to move on but right now he is a breath of fresh air

[Webbo]

I'm not anti-Semitic but....

[Nick]

He isn't racist , the man is political legend and speaks the truth , the Zionist press loves s communist to bash , red Ken this week and Putin next week

Despite the fact that Ken is a thoroughly decent man and Putin the greatest political leader of a world superpower at present

If Kens a great politician his mouth doesn't reflect his ability sometimes.

I have no idea what prejudices he has or the depths of them.

As for Putin being the contemporary great in superpower leadership - that's just ****ing insanity and undermines any future point you make as a bench mark for your views. And please don't come back with a list of Putin's achievements I havn't got the time or the strength to discuss the mans lack of transparency in his political activities.

[Guest Bilo]

Antisemitism and anti-Zionism are not the same.

Zionism is a political ideology which has always been contested within Jewish life since it emerged in 1897, and it is entirely legitimate for non-Jews as well as Jews to express opinions about it, whether positive or negative.

Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Zionists are Jews

Labour is an anti-Zionist movement and party and long may it do so

Our Palestinian friends need support and solidarity

You were doing well until the penultimate line, which is patently false.

[Guest Bilo]

Vladimir Putin as a great leader?! Where do you even start with that one?

[RobHawk]

Labour in a mess after a terrible week, election on Thursday and they send Dianne Abbott onto Andrew Marr?

I can see a the Labour Party splitting and a new party being formed!

[Alf Bentley]

Labour in a mess after a terrible week, election on Thursday and they send Dianne Abbott onto Andrew Marr?

I can see a the Labour Party splitting and a new party being formed!

 

 

If Sadiq Khan loses the London mayoral election because of this fiasco, there'll be blood on the carpet. Poor results is one thing, but London was supposed to be the face-saver.

 

What's more, the Tories (or acolytes of Lynton Crosby) seem to have been running a filthy, race-based campaign in London.....but instead the negative focus is on Labour due to Livingstone. 

I lived in London in the 80s and liked the bloke as GLC leader and after, but he's got seriously self-obsessed if he thinks defending the pedantic detail of his comments is what matters here. As it happens, he's wrong about that, too: there's no parallel between Hitler considering expelling all the Jews to Palestine and Zionists wanting to voluntarily set up a Jewish homeland there. But even if the comparison had been valid, it would still have been offensive due to the context of the Holocaust.  "I'm sorry if I've upset anyone" is a mealy-mouthed cop-out. People HAVE been offended, quite reasonably, and the apology should be unreserved. This might also allow the election campaign to focus on the real issues!

 

As for parties splitting, that could conceivably happen to both Labour and the Tories, depending on events in elections and the referendum. It probably won't because (a) First-past-the-post elections favour large, broad-ranging parties, not splits or new parties - as the SDP (1980s) and UKIP have found out; (b) You need a lot of money to run effective election campaigns - nowhere near as bad as the USA, but along similar lines. 

 

Will Self has argued that it would be better for British politics if both Labour and the Tories split into 2 separate parties. I tend to agree with him. Our democracy is becoming unhealthy, if not dysfunctional, and needs a realignment.

Back to the happier terrain of football.... 

[Claridge]

Antisemitism and anti-Zionism are not the same.

Zionism is a political ideology which has always been contested within Jewish life since it emerged in 1897, and it is entirely legitimate for non-Jews as well as Jews to express opinions about it, whether positive or negative.

Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Zionists are Jews

Labour is an anti-Zionist movement and party and long may it do so

Our Palestinian friends need support and solidarity

 

If it wasn't for the fact that the Palestinians blow up innocent people , stab them ,hijack planes, murder athletes etc...you may have a point about being friends. 

Idiot

[Rincewind]

They are both as bad as each other.

[Guest MattP]

Antisemitism and anti-Zionism are not the same.

Zionism is a political ideology which has always been contested within Jewish life since it emerged in 1897, and it is entirely legitimate for non-Jews as well as Jews to express opinions about it, whether positive or negative.

Not all Jews are Zionists. Not all Zionists are Jews

Labour is an anti-Zionist movement and party and long may it do so

Our Palestinian friends need support and solidarity

 

The Labour party was the natural home of British Jews for years, no way could be be described as a anti-Zionist movement, it might be now after the lunatics have taken over the asylum but it certainly hasn't been in the past. The Labour friends of Israel group has always been one of the biggest movements in the party.

 

I noticed in another thread you said you were a card carrying member for twenty years, I don't really understand how anyone could be that, they might be called the same thing but Labour under Blair is a totally different political party to what it is now, they are even both massively different political ideologies.

 

It's important to remember this lot have only been in charge of the party for 9 months, can you imagine what it will look like if they get 5 years?!

 

Alf just touched on how important money is as well to win elections, there is a hell of a lot of Jewish money in politics and Labour might have even more regrets than they think when it comes around to trying to fund a campaign for 2020.

[Guest MattP]

Did I actually se Putin described as a communist as well?

[Guest Bilo]

Did I actually se Putin described as a communist as well?

Was gonna say, he makes Farage look like Natalie Bennett!

[Jon the Hat]

They are both as bad as each other.

They really aren't.

[Rincewind]

They are. Nether want to give way.

[GaelicFox]

Vladimir Putin as a great leader?! Where do you even start with that one?

Has literally saved the world