Labour's anti Semitic problems.

[Rincewind]

Couldn't this thread be merged with the Toxic Left thread? It saves ignoring more than one.

[Webbo]

 

 

I'm not denying I'm biased at all, but we are all are, when was the last time you attacked Ken on here for consistently smearing the Tories with often totally made up memes or information? I find it hard to believe you would let that go so consistenly were it me or Webbo posting it.

Fair point.

[Alf Bentley]

Oh come on mate, you seem to think every single thing directed at the Labour party is a smear these days, how about the party actually takes some responsibility for it's people? No one (yourself included) seemed to have a single problem with any of this when it was UKIP memebers being splattered all over the front pages before the election last year for saying far milder things.

 

It's perfectly reasonable to bring this up, the bloke was mentioned by the Prime Minister himself at PMQ's and yesterday he was invited on as a guest to the Daily Politics to discuss his situation, he openly stated he was welcomed back into the party, people knew about the things he had said and the organisations he was involved with, if I really wanted to smear I'd be also be whacking up the picture they showed of him sitting with the shadow chancellor, this defence of everything is a smear becoming pathetic now and seems to be reaching all sides of the Labour party. .

 

And for what it's worth the "Tatler Tory" should be talked about just as much (and has been in the media I've read) - It's a total stain on the party and needs to be seriously dealt with, everyone who was involved needs to be kicked out and I would hope no Tory member or supporter would try and brush it off as a scare or smear whilst wanting to do nothing about it.

 

I'm not denying I'm biased at all, but we are all are, when was the last time you attacked Ken on here for consistently smearing the Tories with often totally made up memes or information? I find it hard to believe you would let that go so consistenly were it me or Webbo posting it.

 

 

I note that you didn't reply to my questions about your affiliations to political parties or groups. Why was that?

 

In case it encourages you to be more open, I'm happy to share my own affiliations. I was an active member of the Labour Party in the 1980s and more sporadically in the 1990s. I let my membership lapse in about 1998-99, mainly due to disillusionment with the party's undemocratic, centralising ways rather than policy issues. For different reasons, I voted Lib Dem in 2001 & 2005 and hadn't been a Labour Party member until a few months back. I rejoined during all the furore over the leadership election but haven't had any active involvement. I may well leave again as I'm pessimistic about where Labour is heading under Corbyn (I'm not a big fan of the dogmatic left) but will wait to see what happens after the local elections and the EU referendum - when I'm expecting a big ferment on Left and Right. For a couple of years around 1991-93 I was in an organisation called Democratic Left, but that was largely a talking shop; I was also in various trade unions and in CND in the 1980s, that's about it. I have some sympathy for the Greens, but think they've been poor recently. Over to you, Matt....

 

Yes, people in all parties who do dodgy things or express offensive views should be disciplined or expelled - and all parties have such people. But I'd prefer to discuss policy, not some obscure Labour activist and not the Tatler Tory - so long as parties deal with dodgy individuals when they inevitably appear. We'd disagree on a lot, but agree on some things. What I find depressing is this endless stream of mud that you fling at particular individuals in the hope of smearing the Labour Party through "guilt by association": what some obscure adviser, councillor or party member did or said this week or last century etc.

 

5 days ago, I picked Ken up on a false claim that a Tory MP had defected to Labour over the doctors' strike (see "doctors' strike" thread). I don't pick Ken up over things very often because (a) I often agree with him (Yes, we're all biased); (b) some of his posts are of a good quality; © When he posts something inaccurate or unsourced, I'm confident that several of you Tory/Rightist lads will quickly stick the boot into him - and I have better things to do with my time.

 

 

[Alf Bentley]

Fair point.

 

 

Answered in my reply to Matt, Webbo. Hope you think I've made "fair points", too.

 

Will be back on later.

[Thracian]

Anyone with a Celtic, Anglo-Saxon, Roman or Norse heritage, I suppose.

 

Oh wait, they are or were all bloody foreigners!

If you've got an agenda why not be straightforward and lay it out?

Cos you're a long way from convincing me of anything so far and your bitter insults are something I heard long ago from your neck of the woods. Not that I believe you're German. They're an arrogant lot for sure, but some, at least, command respect.

[Webbo]

I think you're being a bit paranoid Alf. If Matt was spreading propaganda for any organisation I'm sure he could pick a better place than this. There's probably only 10 or 15 of us who actually read these threads and nobody's ever changed their mind yet.

 

For the record, I'm not a member of any political party/organisation and never have been either.

[Thracian]

I note that you didn't reply to my questions about your affiliations to political parties or groups. Why was that?[/size]

 

 [/size]

In case it encourages you to be more open, I'm happy to share my own affiliations. I was an active member of the Labour Party in the 1980s and more sporadically in the 1990s. I let my membership lapse in about 1998-99, mainly due to disillusionment with the party's undemocratic, centralising ways rather than policy issues. For different reasons, I voted Lib Dem in 2001 & 2005 and hadn't been a Labour Party member until a few months back. I rejoined during all the furore over the leadership election but haven't had any active involvement. I may well leave again as I'm pessimistic about where Labour is heading under Corbyn (I'm not a big fan of the dogmatic left) but will wait to see what happens after the local elections and the EU referendum - when I'm expecting a big ferment on Left and Right. For a couple of years around 1991-93 I was in an organisation called Democratic Left, but that was largely a talking shop; I was also in various trade unions and in CND in the 1980s, that's about it. I have some sympathy for the Greens, but think they've been poor recently. Over to you, Matt....[/size]

 

 [/size]

Yes, people in all parties who do dodgy things or express offensive views should be disciplined or expelled - and all parties have such people. But I'd prefer to discuss policy, not some obscure Labour activist and not the Tatler Tory - so long as parties deal with dodgy individuals when they inevitably appear. We'd disagree on a lot, but agree on some things. What I find depressing is this endless stream of mud that you fling at particular individuals in the hope of smearing the Labour Party through "guilt by association": what some obscure adviser, councillor or party member did or said this week or last century etc.[/size]

 

 

 

5 days ago, I picked Ken up on a false claim that a Tory MP had defected to Labour over the doctors' strike (see "doctors' strike" thread). I don't pick Ken up over things very often because (a) I often agree with him (Yes, we're all biased); (b) some of his posts are of a good quality; © When he posts something inaccurate or unsourced, I'm confident that several of you Tory/Rightist lads will quickly stick the boot into him - and I have better things to do with my time.

I'm not sure Ken has a sincere personal, defensible, philosophy about anything but there's time yet.

Even when I tried to help him he reportedly turned to someone else for a decision, presumably because he didn't trust his own judgement - or me!

As my wife so aptly says - "why bother?"

Indeed, given his political stance, I find it quite ironic that what I believe has been Ken's best source of unconditional material help (outside the benefits office) in recent years, has come from a capitalist and occasional Tory.

However, that comment does open up a wonderful opportunity for sincere socialists and I look forward to his being firmly on his feet in no time!

[Foxxed]

at the title. Are MattP's political biases beyond repair?

 

I've not read the article, the thread title just made me laugh. Antisemitism is bad, as is any form of racism or xenophobia, from either party, should I need to clarify. Enjoy the thread.

[Claridge]

Couldn't this thread be merged with the Toxic Left thread? It saves ignoring more than one.

Leftie censorship of the threads:)

[Rincewind]

I'm not sure Ken has a sincere personal, defensible, philosophy about anything but there's time yet.

Even when I tried to help him he reportedly turned to someone else for a decision, presumably because he didn't trust his own judgement - or me!

As my wife so aptly says - "why bother?"

Indeed, given his political stance, I find it quite ironic that what I believe has been Ken's best source of unconditional material help (outside the benefits office) in recent years, has come from a capitalist and occasional Tory.

However, that comment does open up a wonderful opportunity for sincere socialists and I look forward to his being firmly on his feet in no time!

If you intended to do something that you knew nothing about would you just go ahead and do it or take advice from someone? I happened to mention the proposal to my brother and he came back to me with his forecast and costsl

As I said He was helping manage my budget. Your political stance had nothing to do with my decision. I would not have been able to do it if not for ongoing help. Transport and setting and unsetting up the stall. I am not a strong person so would struggle lifting the goods. Do you not think you should weigh up pros and cons before taking out insurance with any particular company? Of course not. You look at quotes and see which one best suits your needs.

BTW I do not belong to any political party. They are all as bad as each other. But I do think there is a bias towards the right on here. Anything mentioned about errors this Government and it is seized upon and condemned as being leftie. I would say if anything I lean towards being Liberal. Not Lib Dems which is not the same. The old liberals were actually the ones that brought about the health service, employment equality in the workplace amongst other things.

[MC Prussian]

If you've got an agenda why not be straightforward and lay it out?

Cos you're a long way from convincing me of anything so far and your bitter insults are something I heard long ago from your neck of the woods. Not that I believe you're German. They're an arrogant lot for sure, but some, at least, command respect.

 

It took you four weeks to get back to me.

 

They (Germans) are an arrogant lot for sure

Nothing beats generalizations. And that from the man who claims he doesn't travel that much to foreign places anymore. You know your stuff from YouTube. Excellent.

You'll find arrogant people no matter where you go, being German has nothing to do with it. But thanks for the xenophobic wink in my direction.

 

So you define "indigenous" as 

people who originate in an area and have a specific connection to it, I suppose.

The dictionary says:

"originating in and characteristic of a particular region or country;native (often followed by to)"

 

But that definition doesn't go as far to tell what timeframe the "origin" part applies to.

As you say it, it's a vague description and can be used in all sorts of contexts and for many purposes. In general, I find that racists, some right-wing politicians and xenophobes abuse it for their own agenda in a way of saying "we were here first", neglecting the fact that they as modern-day individuals have inherited a right that once was down to one man saying "this is mine".

I consider that a twisted logic.

 

In essence, we could all be considered foreigners as we are descendents of immigrants back in the days.

Because our ancestors once moved to the area we come from. Only time, tradition and possession (of property) make us more "indigenous" than migrants of today. You take a Sikh or Hindu family that has moved to Leicester in the 50ies or 60ies, now consisting of three, if not four generations that have lived in the county or city - are they also indigenous to the area or still considered foreigners?

[DJ Barry Hammond]

I'm not sure Ken has a sincere personal, defensible, philosophy about anything but there's time yet.

Even when I tried to help him he reportedly turned to someone else for a decision, presumably because he didn't trust his own judgement - or me!

As my wife so aptly says - "why bother?"

Indeed, given his political stance, I find it quite ironic that what I believe has been Ken's best source of unconditional material help (outside the benefits office) in recent years, has come from a capitalist and occasional Tory.

However, that comment does open up a wonderful opportunity for sincere socialists and I look forward to his being firmly on his feet in no time!

Is it fair for you to continue publically airing a personal situation on here between you and Ken in the manor that you are doing.

What help you offered and Ken's decision on whether to accept it or not is not really a matter for public discussion on a forum and he shouldn't be having to defend himself for making what he feels was the right decision for him.

[Buce]

Is it fair for you to continue publically airing a personal situation on here between you and Ken in the manor that you are doing.

What help you offered and Ken's decision on whether to accept it or not is not really a matter for public discussion on a forum and he shouldn't be having to defend himself for making what he feels was the right decision for him.

This.

It displays a distinct lack of class, as does your (unsubstantiated) claims of charitable munificence.

[Alf Bentley]

Is it fair for you to continue publically airing a personal situation on here between you and Ken in the manor that you are doing.

What help you offered and Ken's decision on whether to accept it or not is not really a matter for public discussion on a forum and he shouldn't be having to defend himself for making what he feels was the right decision for him.

 

 

Precisely.

 

People are absolutely entitled to contest opinions expressed by Ken or anyone else - and to criticise Ken or anyone else who posts inaccurate information. But Thracian isn't the only one who has indulged in personal attacks on Ken's life choices - and it's out of order. Thracian raised this same issue a week or two back and Ken was polite enough to offer an explanation for his decision (he was under no obligation to do so) and now Thracian's raising it again: why? It stinks, frankly. 

 

Maybe Ken should invite Thracian to do some voluntary work with the homeless - and launch repeated personal attacks on Thracian's selfishness if he chooses to spend his time differently? No, that wouldn't be nice either, would it?

 

As I understand it, Ken worked from about 16 to 60, doing warehousing and latterly security work - is that right, Ken? He's more than earned the right to spend his retirement how the hell he likes. Dividing his time between family, poker, writing poetry, doing voluntary work with the homeless, posting on FoxesTalk and pissing it up on real ale sounds a pretty good combination to me. I'm envious! 

[Alf Bentley]

I think you're being a bit paranoid Alf. If Matt was spreading propaganda for any organisation I'm sure he could pick a better place than this. There's probably only 10 or 15 of us who actually read these threads and nobody's ever changed their mind yet.

 

For the record, I'm not a member of any political party/organisation and never have been either.

 

 

More curious than paranoid, Webbo. As you say, it's just a handful of people jabbering on a forum at the end of the day.

 

But Matt devotes a lot of time and effort to making posts denigrating the Labour Party or the Left in general. It's reasonable to ask why. Maybe he'll explain - or state his own record of political affiliations? Though he's obviously under no obligation.

 

Sometimes he expresses valid, even well-argued opinions about policy or issues.  I even agree with some of his posts. Often, though, they're based on obscure individuals or events, or opinions expressed decades ago. Maybe I should keep responding in kind (as I did by mentioning the Tory bullying scandal)? Maybe I should start a thread entitled "Is the Conservative Party's problem with racism beyond repair?" - or "When will Cameron & Farage stop beating their wives?"? Maybe I should keep posting comments made years ago by Tory/UKIP politicians or advisers? Or highlight every time some obscure Tory or UKIP councillor/activist is involved in a scandal or makes a stupid comment? Or harp on about seating arrangements at UKIP meetings?

 

I reckon that would be a depressing and pointless experience for everyone, though. Surely it's better to discuss and argue over genuine political issues, rather than deal with a constant sewage flow of trivial, slanted propaganda. The purpose is clearly to smear Labour and the Left through association with particular individuals who have done or said stupid things (often years ago)....I'm just curious about the motive for this purpose.

 

This isn't meant personally, btw. As you know, I met Matt twice a couple of years back and greatly enjoyed his company over a few beers. I also enjoy arguing with people who hold different opinions.....but a spew of trivial slanted propaganda is a turn-off. 

[Rincewind]

That is about right. I never dismissed Thracian's offer right of way. It was much appreciated and I considered it. In the end I did not feel that I would be able to put in the work that was needed and it would be unfair if it fell on him to spend most of his time helping me.

I have tried to reduce my input in this section. Now it is separate from GC it is easier to do so. I do read it and often it is hard not to respond but I have managed it OK I believe. I just rep if I feel someone has posted something that I agree withh in a better way.

I may post some crap but by the same token others also post things that fit their way of thinking and often biased.

Anyway I will leave this thread to those who like to blame everything on the political left and believe the right can do no wrong. As far as I am concerned there are good and bad on all sides. There is enough criticising the left which I found fault on the other side for balance but if that is not wanted I will stay out of it and leave people to wallow in their glory.

[Webbo]

Is it fair for you to continue publically airing a personal situation on here between you and Ken in the manor that you are doing.

What help you offered and Ken's decision on whether to accept it or not is not really a matter for public discussion on a forum and he shouldn't be having to defend himself for making what he feels was the right decision for him.

I have to say I agree. You've mentioned it once thrac that should be enough. Banging on about it isn't really on.

[Thracian]

I'm right with Rincey (which makes a change) about time spent commenting in here and will leave it to the Lefties who won't ever stop dictating their agenda until the rest of the world shuts up anyway - however wrong they may be.

My mention of Rincey was connected to the above in that he is forever defending socialism for what it does for the needy (laughable in my view much of the time) while roundly condemning Conservatism in all its forms. And yet in championing the needs of the needy he refuses help offered (which is not unsubstantiated but sincerely meant, confirmed by the man himself and therefore yet another Lefty smokescreen over reality)

But, back to the point. I'm out of this sector. And leave it more despairing for the future of this country than ever.

Some of the blind, misguided ideology defies logic to me, even from those who've clearly thought about it and who I accept in wanting a better/fairer world.

Haha even Sturgeon's won't accept no and is reinventing her Scottish Independence push saying she won't ram it down peoples throat while she quite plainly intends to.

It's the Leftist way. Never mind what anyone else thinks (or even votes for) we'll get what we want whatever just like so many trades unions who gained a little and lost a lot.

I'm out and will focus on the football because any view of mine will be manipulated whatever into some sort of "hating foreigners" or "unsubstantiated charity" bullshit and so many idealistic views on immigration, human rights and so on will just grate on me for their fundamental flaws.

I shall leave the debate in the good hands of the few on here who do seem to understand the folly of so much errant thinking and simply follow the football.

In time I feel sure the Lefties will end up talking to themselves and becoming quite sure that, in the absence of contention, they must be right.

I wish they were - and there was the prospects of a better world to look forward to.

Instead I look at the world we're making and shake my head at the folly of so much naivity, well meant or otherwise.

[Webbo]

I got your point thrac but you were making it too personal. Ken has many faults but that's not what this thread is about.

[Claridge]

I'm right with Rincey (which makes a change) about time spent commenting in here and will leave it to the Lefties who won't ever stop dictating their agenda until the rest of the world shuts up anyway - however wrong they may be.

My mention of Rincey was connected to the above in that he is forever defending socialism for what it does for the needy (laughable in my view much of the time) while roundly condemning Conservatism in all its forms. And yet in championing the needs of the needy he refuses help offered (which is not unsubstantiated but sincerely meant, confirmed by the man himself and therefore yet another Lefty smokescreen over reality)

But, back to the point. I'm out of this sector. And leave it more despairing for the future of this country than ever.

Some of the blind, misguided ideology defies logic to me, even from those who've clearly thought about it and who I accept in wanting a better/fairer world.

Haha even Sturgeon's won't accept no and is reinventing her Scottish Independence push saying she won't ram it down peoples throat while she quite plainly intends to.

It's the Leftist way. Never mind what anyone else thinks (or even votes for) we'll get what we want whatever just like so many trades unions who gained a little and lost a lot.

I'm out and will focus on the football because any view of mine will be manipulated whatever into some sort of "hating foreigners" or "unsubstantiated charity" bullshit and so many idealistic views on immigration, human rights and so on will just grate on me for their fundamental flaws.

I shall leave the debate in the good hands of the few on here who do seem to understand the folly of so much errant thinking and simply follow the football.

In time I feel sure the Lefties will end up talking to themselves and becoming quite sure that, in the absence of contention, they must be right.

I wish they were - and there was the prospects of a better world to look forward to.

Instead I look at the world we're making and shake my head at the folly of so much stupidity.

 

If you look at the demographics. the poorest people are usually in labour controlled areas and have been for at least 50 years. We have had labour governments in this time period and yet we still have poor people. Socialism never has and never will work.

If you look at the traditional labours seats(pre thatcher) that went Tory, you get a different story. Labour need the poor to be poor or why else would they vote labour? Blair massively increased the state sector on purpose because he knew the 'poor' had sussed labour out as we saw in the last election when UKIP took many votes off them.

[Rincewind]

I have to say I agree. You've mentioned it once thrac that should be enough. Banging on about it isn't really on.

Thanks for the support. just to confirm that my reason to decline Thrac's kind offer was personal not political.

I am not affiliated to any political party and do not believe in scapegoating and I am for equality and fairness. I do not think that is a political trait but a humane one.

I gave my reasons which I did not have to and thought they were reasonable so if they are not accepted I see no reason to debate the matter.

Now everyone can get back to the topic which is finding fault with the looney left which BTW I am not or want to be associated with.

[Alf Bentley]

It's the Leftist way. Never mind what anyone else thinks (or even votes for) we'll get what we want whatever just like so many trades unions who gained a little and lost a lot.

I'm out and will focus on the football because any view of mine will be manipulated whatever into some sort of "hating foreigners" or "unsubstantiated charity" bullshit and so many idealistic views on immigration, human rights and so on will just grate on me for their fundamental flaws.

I shall leave the debate in the good hands of the few on here who do seem to understand the folly of so much errant thinking and simply follow the football.

In time I feel sure the Lefties will end up talking to themselves and becoming quite sure that, in the absence of contention, they must be right.

 

 

Not for the first time, there's an under-current of victimhood here, suggesting that the world and FoxesTalk are dominated by Lefties.

 

Call me a saddo, but I thought that I'd analyse this thread to see whether it's dominated by Lefties or Righties.

 

I counted 36 posts by Righties and 28 posts by Lefties.

This is obviously a very rough measurement as people can be Centrists or "Righties" on one issue and "Lefties" on another.

For that rough approximation, I ignored those who weren't obviously one or the other, and grouped posters as follows (apologies to anyone who objects at their categorisation):

- Leftish: Rincewind, Alf Bentley, Swan Lesta, Captain, Charl91, Buce, MC Prussian, Foxxed

- Rightish: MattP, Thracian, Webbo, Jon the Hat, Strokes, Claridge

 

At the General Election, there was a poll on here. As I recall, this pretty much reflected the national outcome between the 2 "big" parties: Con and Lab fairly close but a small lead for Con. Support for UKIP and the Greens was higher than nationally, as I remember, but that's to be expected on a forum mainly frequented by younger people (even if this thread is dominated by us old gits!).

 

When I went to bed last night, the world was largely run through fairly free-market capitalism, we had a majority Tory government and an in-out referendum on the EU was pending. Did something happen overnight that I'm unaware of? Was the world suddenly taken over by a devilish horde of democracy-destroying Corbynistas, BBC employees, Islamist migrants, socialist schoolteachers, communist doctors, all-powerful trade unionists and left-wing FoxesTalk posters?! 

 

I find this right-wing persecution complex utterly bizarre....and the political persuasions of posters on here are fairly even, maybe even slightly tilted to the Right (as might be expected, tbf, as the Right is currently on top in national politics).

 

Part of me wants to encourage you to stick to the football forums, Thracian, as your football posts are often very good. But there's no reason for you to avoid politics threads, even if the likes of Ken and me are always likely to disagree with you. You have plenty of fellow thinkers on here - and the objection raised this time related to your personal issue with Ken, not your political views. 

 

Back to real life...

[Webbo]

There certainly used to be an anti right wing bias on here when I first joined. The only people who'd admit to be being tory were me and Phube and we had to make a joke of it. The vilification of anyone who voiced any right wing views was pretty awful to be honest.

 

It's a lot less confrontational on here now and that's a good thing. I will admit there is a slight right wing majority on these threads now.

[Guest MattP]

I'll reply to Alf when I'm on the pc tomorrow.

Good segment now on the Sunday politics on the issues I keep being criticised for regarding this.

Direct answer from John Mann, a Labour MP to whether Labour has a problem with antisemitism - "Yes, of course it does"

[Rincewind]

Some may regard me as leftish but I prefer the word liberal. I try not to post so much in the politic section because the majority on here do not want to know about corruption, tax evasion/avoidance, over the top expenses claims and such like because it is seen as having a go at just the righties even though it happens across the political spectrum and people. Maybe I am too cynical sometimes when I find something fishy about the biggest donators to the Tory party are those at the top and they also receive the biggest tax incentives. The owner of the Mail is a personal friend of Cameron could lead some to think its a bit dodgy too but there is no strong evidence of any wrongdoing is there?

If all the 'lefties' stopped posting in this section, the swing to the right would increase much like the GE when Labour voters became disillusioned with New Labour in the past decade or so.