Conservatives

[MONreborn]

It was once said that the moral test of a government is how that government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; and those who are in the shadows of life, the sick, the poor and the disabled.

It is also true that moral test of a governent is how it treats the professionals who look after the above.

The governent has failed both moral tests.

Just what exactly is their end game?

[Rincewind]

We have had Tories in forin one form or another the past 35 years. People know no other way.

I gave up on it all years ago. They are all as bad as one another.

[Foxxed]

I wonder if they'll consider putting a N/A on the next election paper. Or if UKIP and the Lib Dems are the equivalent for right and left leaners.

 

Interesting to see the Tories tear their own party in two over Europe. And I'm really not sure what Labour are up to and if their leadership will last.

 

And, to answer the question, I guess the Conservatives' end game--like most/all parties I'd say--is to keep power and to change the country to fit their ideology.

[Thracian]

Party politics is pathetic and fosters hypocrisy.

I'm not convinced by democracy at all. Majorities can, and do, vote wrongly and can end up making the most dreadful mistakes.

The trends of recent years have been appalling and all the deceit that's gone with them.

We need strong, visionary leadership with a consistent philosophy. It sounds simple, and is simple in essence.

But corruption and vested interest seems to blight every good intention before long.  

[Webbo]

It was once said that the moral test of a government is how that government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; and those who are in the shadows of life, the sick, the poor and the disabled.

It is also true that moral test of a governent is how it treats the professionals who look after the above.

The governent has failed both moral tests.

Just what exactly is their end game

Does coming out with this shit make you feel superior?

[Carl the Llama]

Title not sufficiently alarmist and divisionary.  Please revise.

 

 

It was once said that the moral test of a government is how that government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; and those who are in the shadows of life, the sick, the poor and the disabled.
It is also true that moral test of a governent is how it treats the professionals who look after the above.

The governent has failed both moral tests.

Just what exactly is their end game?

Doesn't seem like a solid test tbf.  Government's about more than healthcare and benefits.  Not for one second saying the incumbents aren't nauseating.

[Guest MattP]

It was once said that the moral test of a government is how that government treats those who are in the dawn of life, the children; those who are in the twilight of life, the elderly; and those who are in the shadows of life, the sick, the poor and the disabled.

It is also true that moral test of a governent is how it treats the professionals who look after the above.

The governent has failed both moral tests.

 

Most pensioners vote Conservative so the elderly as a collective obviously don't feel like you do.

 

Personally I think the moral test of a government is what they leave behind for the next generation, in my opinion leaving our children and their children to have Greek style austerity enforced on them because our generation continued to borrow and borrow to live beyond our means would be the most immoral thing a government could do.

[Alf Bentley]

Party politics is pathetic and fosters hypocrisy.

I'm not convinced by democracy at all. Majorities can, and do, vote wrongly and can end up making the most dreadful mistakes.

The trends of recent years have been appalling and all the deceit that's gone with them.

We need strong, visionary leadership with a consistent philosophy. It sounds simple, and is simple in essence.

But corruption and vested interest seems to blight every good intention before long.  

 

 

Blimey. That sounds like Mussolini, Hitler or Stalin....but their "strong, visionary leadership" and elimination of democracy didn't end well. 

I'd settle for wise leadership and better democracy - including the devolution of more power to local communities, regions etc.(as opposed to the centralisation of power ongoing under successive governments).

 

 

The Conservative Party has changed massively over the last 65 years. During the 50s & 60s, we had "Butskellism" (Butler was a leading Tory, Gaitskell led Labour) whereby both major parties basically supported a mixed economy, business, economic development, moderate wealth redistribution and decent public services. The Tories started to challenge several of those assumptions in the 70s, and particularly since the 80s, seeing free markets as the solution to almost everything. Now, under Corbyn, Labour seems to be moving in the opposite direction.

 

My father-in-law was an active Conservative before I knew him, and an admirer of Butler. He ended up in the SDP in the 80s and in New Labour in the 90s, without ever changing his political beliefs, which tells you a lot.

 

I regret the fact that that old Conservative Party - pro-business, but anti-poverty and pro-public services - no longer exists, apart from a few ageing "Wets" like Ken Clarke. It all seems very "Animal Farm" in the Tory party these days: "private good, public bad, baa-aa, baa-aa!". One or two Tory posters on here occasionally express a more liberal slant (e.g. Jon the Hat), but most seem to express what seems to be the dominant Conservative thinking: private enterprise & free markets are the solution to everything; most public spending is a waste of money; doctors/teachers are all radical lefties and/or idlers with a cushy number; the unemployed are mainly idle scroungers who receive loads of benefits; homelessness is a lifestyle choice etc.

 

As for Thracian's comment.....sorry, mate, Benito is no longer available; he got hung up by his boots decades ago!    

[Guest MattP]

I regret the fact that that old Conservative Party - pro-business, but anti-poverty and pro-public services - no longer exists, apart from a few ageing "Wets" like Ken Clarke. It all seems very "Animal Farm" in the Tory party these days: "private good, public bad, baa-aa, baa-aa!". One or two Tory posters on here occasionally express a more liberal slant (e.g. Jon the Hat), but most seem to express what seems to be the dominant Conservative thinking: private enterprise & free markets are the solution to everything; most public spending is a waste of money; doctors/teachers are all radical lefties and/or idlers with a cushy number; the unemployed are mainly idle scroungers who receive loads of benefits; homelessness is a lifestyle choice etc.

 

Was it you were saying about this place getting silly because of people exaggerating and misrepresenting the opinions of others? I don't think any Conservative on this board seriously believes most public spending is a waste of money, doctors and teachers are all radicals and the unemployed in the main are scroungers, this just seems to be the response these days when you suggest any sort of reforms to anything related to these subjects.

 

I'd say most are Disraelian one nation Conservatives, I think it's seen in the electorate as well as more and more of the working class starts to vote Tory and more and more of the middle classes seem to be joining Labour ( http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/20/labours-new-members-mostly-wealthy-city-dwellers-leaked-report) - but it's those Tories values that are appealing - the desire for liberty, and the recognition that most people in society want to gain an advantage for their children has been the single most progressive force in developing the modern and more civilised World.

 

The radical reforms will continue and Cameron and Co have to be prepared for the backlash, there has barely been an instance in history where the public will take the side of hated politicians ahead of the doctors, nurses and teachers they meet every day but if they can deliver value what is seen as value for money history will be kind to them and the public will still treat them as a serious political party, which is why they are still here nearly 200 years after they were formed and are the most successful political party on the planet.

 

Nice to have you back though, the place isn't the same without you.

[Jon the Hat]

I shall gratefully accept your kind reference there Alf.

 

I do believe that capitalism has been the defining source of good in our time, lifting countless people out of poverty across the world.  That said, it can clearly go too far - see the US model for example.  What I want to see is our taxes spent efficiently, and I really don't see that.  The reactionary left see any criticism of waste as a criticism of public services, which it isn't.  Re benefits, we clearly had a system where too many where not incentivised to work - ie better off on benefits - and that is not a positive for anyone.  Have the cuts been well executed and fair?  No I don't think they have.  I didn't want or need the tax cut I got from the recent budget, certainly not at the expense of disability benefits.

[Alf Bentley]

Was it you were saying about this place getting silly because of people exaggerating and misrepresenting the opinions of others? I don't think any Conservative on this board seriously believes most public spending is a waste of money, doctors and teachers are all radicals and the unemployed in the main are scroungers, this just seems to be the response these days when you suggest any sort of reforms to anything related to these subjects.

 

 

 

My depiction of dominant Tory assumptions was not intended to be taken literally, verbatim, but more as an impression of general attitudes: i.e. most Tories feel far too much public spending is wasted (not most), the doctors' strike / opposition to compulsory academies are strongly influenced by lefty unions/attitudes, a lot of the unemployed (not all) are scroungers, a lot of the homeless bring it on themselves/are on the street by choice (not all) etc.

 

Incidentally, having just seen Jon's post, I certainly wouldn't disagree with some of the criticism of wasteful/disorganised public services. I've almost had a long rant about this several times, from personal experience of dealing with the NHS and council social services re. my elderly father over the past year - some massive failings caused by Tory cuts, but others caused by mismanagement, over-complex systems (the fault of Labour & Tory govts), inflexibility and personal idleness/incompetence. I hope that means I'm not on the "reactionary left"!

 

Must go now as I've suddenly had a lot of work commissioned this week - must be the economy booming under the Tories. 

 

Will probably return to the thread at some point....unless it turns into an abuse-fest and gets closed down (quite likely, I'd imagine!).

[Guest MattP]

Must go now as I've suddenly had a lot of work commissioned this week - must be the economy booming under the Tories. 

 

Will probably return to the thread at some point....unless it turns into an abuse-fest and gets closed down (quite likely, I'd imagine!).

 

Me too, I've managed to pick up some work writing for an Australian betting website (I blame the weak pound though ), weird writing about odds compiling and comparison for Leicester City rather than clubs like Man Utd!

 

I'm sure it will be gone before long, politics is going to get a lot nastier over the new few years in this country with some severe Conservophobia , look at the bright side though, at least we aren't America and beating each other up at meetings yet.

[Thracian]

Considering the death toll and deceit since the democratic election of Blair - and those who've succeeded him - I'm surprised at the strength of your commitment to democracy and there are, of course, examples of people who were regarded as benevolent dictators ..  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictatorshipalthough I've not intended to promote the idea of dictatorship necessarily.

 

That said, there is nothing in theory to stop a wise leader or their agents canvassing public views on a subject and those views, freely given and analysed, would perhaps be more sincere than those expressed within a party situation.

 

In many ways I agree with your view of the Conservative party. I'm very much pro-business, anti poverty and pro-public services -  but minus the self-serving politics of trades unionism and so long as provision is made within a sound/sustainable/responsible/value-for-money economic framework (see current Leicester City FC-type management! )

 

Sadly, there are many instances of individuals who actually fit perfectly into your mocking generalisions - and across a much broader framework - but I consider almost all genuine unemployment to reflect a failure of the system - and a lot of homelessness too, but that is a big subject with tendrils for discussion encompassing education/substance abuse/family breakdown of lack of support, mental illness and countless other things.

 

Whatever way you look at it, the marrying of human rights with human responsibility, needs far greater emphasis from birth.

 

Social welfare provision is laudable where necessary, but far better for the system to do all it can to promote resourcefulness and the ways and means of people looking after themselves and their family instead of having people grow used to holding the hands of others either out of expectation or their fears/ lack of confidence or even lack of awareness in relation to opportunities.

[Captain...]

Benevolent dictators are the way forwards

[Alf Bentley]

Considering the death toll and deceit since the democratic election of Blair - and those who've succeeded him - I'm surprised at the strength of your commitment to democracy and there are, of course, examples of people who were regarded as benevolent dictators ..  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_dictatorshipalthough I've not intended to promote the idea of dictatorship necessarily.

 

That said, there is nothing in theory to stop a wise leader or their agents canvassing public views on a subject and those views, freely given and analysed, would perhaps be more sincere than those expressed within a party situation.

 

In many ways I agree with your view of the Conservative party. I'm very much pro-business, anti poverty and pro-public services -  but minus the self-serving politics of trades unionism and so long as provision is made within a sound/sustainable/responsible/value-for-money economic framework (see current Leicester City FC-type management! )

 

Sadly, there are many instances of individuals who actually fit perfectly into your mocking generalisions - and across a much broader framework - but I consider almost all genuine unemployment to reflect a failure of the system - and a lot of homelessness too, but that is a big subject with tendrils for discussion encompassing education/substance abuse/family breakdown of lack of support, mental illness and countless other things.

 

Whatever way you look at it, the marrying of human rights with human responsibility, needs far greater emphasis from birth.

 

Social welfare provision is laudable where necessary, but far better for the system to do all it can to promote resourcefulness and the ways and means of people looking after themselves and their family instead of having people grow used to holding the hands of others either out of expectation or their fears/ lack of confidence or even lack of awareness in relation to opportunities.

 

 

I actually agree with most of that, except that I suspect you blame a higher proportion of the unemployed for their predicament than I do (though I'd blame a minority myself).

 

Re. democracy: I should have introduced you to my mother while she was still around. She used to sporadically think that "stupid people should be banned from voting" (though hers was a hard-left analysis of "stupid" that might not have agreed with yours - you'd have probably banned one another from voting!  ). To deploy a cliche, I see democracy as "the worst system of government in existence - apart from all the others", so would concentrate on improving it, not demolishing it. Likewise, I'd see (socially regulated) capitalism as "the worst economic system apart from all the others". Mind you, I might be persuaded by a benevolent dictatorship if the dictator was Nigel Pearson or Claudio Ranieri. 

[Bryn]

The political parties are as bad as each other. I think party politics attracts and encourages truly reprehensible people. Those politicians who do have a shred of morality seem to end up marginalised.

That said, Cameron and Osborne terrify me.

[Thracian]

I shall gratefully accept your kind reference there Alf.

 

I do believe that capitalism has been the defining source of good in our time, lifting countless people out of poverty across the world.  That said, it can clearly go too far - see the US model for example.  What I want to see is our taxes spent efficiently, and I really don't see that.  The reactionary left see any criticism of waste as a criticism of public services, which it isn't.  Re benefits, we clearly had a system where too many where not incentivised to work - ie better off on benefits - and that is not a positive for anyone.  Have the cuts been well executed and fair?  No I don't think they have.  I didn't want or need the tax cut I got from the recent budget, certainly not at the expense of disability benefits.

 

 

Entirely agree - and particularly with that last sentence. 

[Rincewind]

Interesting to think that the cuts to the disabled benefits that were change would have saved 4.2bn. The tax cuts cost 4.8bn.

More people would be affected by the cuts than those that benefit from the cuts to tax at the higher level.

 

Just saying.

[Bryn]

I suppose the argument is it stimulates the economy in some way. What kind of tangible benefit any normal person will see from it is beyond me.

[bovril]

Benevolent dictators are the way forwards

 

Personally I'm in favour of an Anarcho-socialist collective based on a mixture of early Canaanite religions and the work of Hermann Hesse.

 

Searching for a candidate in West Norfolk to represent my views.

[Alf Bentley]

I suppose the argument is it stimulates the economy in some way. What kind of tangible benefit any normal person will see from it is beyond me.

 

 

The "trickle-down theory", innit!

 

'If you feed the horse enough oats, some will pass through to the road for the sparrows" - John Kenneth Galbraith 

[Bryn]

It's about control.

[Rincewind]

The "trickle-down theory", innit!

 

'If you feed the horse enough oats, some will pass through to the road for the sparrows" - John Kenneth Galbraith 

On the other hand when the bird at the top of the tree shits, it trickles down on the poor buggers at the bottom. 

[SMX11]

All government spending is tax, be it today through general taxation or in the future through the devaluing the currency. It should be in the interest of everybody to reduce it down to a respectable level 25-30% of GDP.

[Rincewind]

Is this right and moral? Nothing to do with envy or jealousy it is to do what is right and fair. It is not just Tory MP's at fault but those that use the position the electorate have placed them in to take advantage. It makes it look bad for the ones who do not take advantage. In fact there are one or two that hardly claim at all yet are criticised in other areas which seem to hit the headlines more than their miniscule expenses claims.