Labour party civil war

[Guest MattP]

Certainly. 

 

Reports already surfacing that Chuka Umanna will be the next challenger, that scares me, he could win an election. Hopefully they'll start purging and warn him off. 

[cityfanlee23]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Certainly. 

 

Reports already surfacing that Chuka Umanna will be the next challenger, that scares me, he could win an election. Hopefully they'll start purging and warn him off. 

Reports he turned away this morning on the Andrew Marr show when he said that they needed to get behind Corbyn.

[Guest MattP]

Let's hope so, I don't want him anywhere near that position. 

 

Conservatives now 15% ahead in new ICM poll, possible UKIP could be within ten points of Labour soon.

 

CON 41%

LAB 26%

UKIP 14%

LD 8%

GRN 4%

[Strokes]

45 minutes ago, MattP said:

Certainly. 

 

Reports already surfacing that Chuka Umanna will be the next challenger, that scares me, he could win an election. Hopefully they'll start purging and warn him off. 

Chuka is very talented and electable, he was devastated when the referendum unfolded the way it did. I have no doubt he would push a second referendum and attempt to halt any disintegration with the EU. For now Corbyn has my full support

[foxy boxing]

The blairites will just have to put up with Corbyn the next few years or leave to form their own party or join the lib dems. There is no getting rid of him now. Labour will just have to look for solutions with Corbyn as leader

[Strokes]

39 minutes ago, MattP said:

Let's hope so, I don't want him anywhere near that position. 

 

Conservatives now 15% ahead in new ICM poll, possible UKIP could be within ten points of Labour soon.

 

CON 41%

LAB 26%

UKIP 14%

LD 8%

GRN 4%

Interesting that the LibDems seem to have had a minor resurgence, and fell away again. They have been almost anonymous since the GE, what are they playing at? They should be seizing this opportunity to batter Labour.

[cityfanlee23]

10 minutes ago, Strokes said:

Chuka is very talented and electable, he was devastated when the referendum unfolded the way it did. I have no doubt he would push a second referendum and attempt to halt any disintegration with the EU. For now Corbyn has my full support

Problem is he's electable for the wrong reasons, Chuka seems to be a corporations man, which is not exactly what we need more of, we need someone who will take on the banks and big corps and force them to change their Neoliberal practices, or the economy will never be sustainable, stable, or for the many.

[Strokes]

5 minutes ago, cityfanlee23 said:

Problem is he's electable for the wrong reasons, Chuka seems to be a corporations man, which is not exactly what we need more of, we need someone who will take on the banks and big corps and force them to change their Neoliberal practices, or the economy will never be sustainable, stable, or for the many.

I think you need to change the beat on that drum you are banging, its just not in time with the rest of the song. Corbyn wont be able to do the things he says he will, whether you agree with them or not. He couldnt even support Brexit when he campaigned against the EU his whole life. The man is weak, the system will continue.

[cityfanlee23]

Just now, Strokes said:

I think you need to change the beat on that drum you are banging, its just not in time with the rest of the song. Corbyn wont be able to do the things he says he will, whether you agree with them or not. He couldnt even support Brexit when he campaigned against his whole life. The man is weak, the system will continue.

Neither could anyone.... when your party line is pro europe, how can you possibly campaign against it with your party split already? 
Weak? Have you seen the attack he's come under for 12 straight months? this is a man of steel. He may not be a born leader, but his policies are correct on the most part. 
The system will continue if we carry on voting for people who simply follow it. 

He gave very good reasons to stay in Europe instead of leaving the nation to a  bunch of idiots who don't understand the very basics of what they advocate, the idiots I used to vote for. 
Corbyn is a genuine threat to the establishment, maybe not as a PM, but he is getting the country talking about alternatives again, we've not had this sort of discussion since the 1980's. 
It really does amaze me how people just suck up the current mess we are in and just accept that we can't stop it, we can stop it, I'm not saying Corbyn is the answer, I'm saying the people are, which is what Corbyn is trying to achieve, people seem to expect him to be the one to lead us all, Newsflash, one man can't take on the establishment, the people have to rally behind him.

 

I see so many people brainwashed into thinking the current situation is the best for the people, then talk of "democracy"
It's a joke. The entire monetary system is set up to benefit those that "have" over those that "have little" 

Anyone that disputes that is simply delusional.

[cityfanlee23]

Just to reiterate, I'm not a corbynista, I don't support a lot of his policies under the current global climate, but anyone who stands up for change is a man I thoroughly admire, he's a threat to the system and for that he has my full backing. 
I don't want my children to have a harder life than me because of the greed of the few, and the brainwashing of the many. 

[Guest MattP]

The idea of Corbyn standing upto anyone is pretty hilarious. 

 

Although your argument over his EU U-turn slips up immediately on trident, his party has a clear position of supporting renewal, yet he stood at the despatch box as leader of the opposition in the debate and put his own person opinions across on the matter instead. 

 

He should just be honest, he supported the EU because all the north London bourgeois bohemians who got him into this position support it as well.

[Strokes]

21 minutes ago, MattP said:

The idea of Corbyn standing upto anyone is pretty hilarious. 

 

Although your argument over his EU U-turn slips up immediately on trident, his party has a clear position of supporting renewal, yet he stood at the despatch box as leader of the opposition in the debate and put his own person opinions across on the matter instead. 

 

He should just be honest, he supported the EU because all the north London bourgeois bohemians who got him into this position support it as well.

The mans as big of a sell out as anyone, his argument for not wanting to leave the EU whilst the tories are in power is pathetic too. What does he think once removed, they will never be in power again?

[cityfanlee23]

19 minutes ago, MattP said:

The idea of Corbyn standing upto anyone is pretty hilarious. 

 

Although your argument over his EU U-turn slips up immediately on trident, his party has a clear position of supporting renewal, yet he stood at the despatch box as leader of the opposition in the debate and put his own person opinions across on the matter instead. 

 

He should just be honest, he supported the EU because all the north London bourgeois bohemians who got him into this position support it as well.

Pretty big difference between the EU and the argument that we need to be able to bomb children at a moments notice matt. 
Corbyn would Nationalise banks and break up media monopoly, wonder why they hate him?

If a Blair style Leader came in and argued for the nationalisation of key resources, and breaking up of monopolies, I'd fall over myself to vote for him, corbyn is not a blair style leader and maybe does not possess the conviction, but he has the right ideas on the majority of policies.

[Guest Sharpe's Fox]

41 minutes ago, cityfanlee23 said:

Pretty big difference between the EU and the argument that we need to be able to bomb children at a moments notice matt. 
Corbyn would Nationalise banks and break up media monopoly, wonder why they hate him?

If a Blair style Leader came in and argued for the nationalisation of key resources, and breaking up of monopolies, I'd fall over myself to vote for him, corbyn is not a blair style leader and maybe does not possess the conviction, but he has the right ideas on the majority of policies.

This is the stance I take. Although quite an endearing fellow Corbyn is far from perfect but the top-down selection processes of New Labour has created an environment where personality is nonexistent in our MP's. The age of Labour Grandees like Nye Bevan, Stafford Cripps, Dennis Healey, Tony Benn, John Prescott ect. who you could disagree with but people respected is over. Its impossible to expect a Harry Perkins, working class socialist type character to sweep constituencies nation wide to step up so we have to deal with a bearded vegetarian called Jeremy.

[Guest MattP]

18 hours ago, cityfanlee23 said:

Pretty big difference between the EU and the argument that we need to be able to bomb children at a moments notice matt. 
Corbyn would Nationalise banks and break up media monopoly, wonder why they hate him?

If a Blair style Leader came in and argued for the nationalisation of key resources, and breaking up of monopolies, I'd fall over myself to vote for him, corbyn is not a blair style leader and maybe does not possess the conviction, but he has the right ideas on the majority of policies.

This is the problem whenever you get into an argument with someone who supports Corbyn, you get childish retorts about boming children, you know full well the intention of trident isn't to bomb children but you say it anyway.

 

I'm interested in what you say though, McDonnell makes his first speech today and there is no policy whatsoever to renationalise banks, do you have information the rest of us don't?

 

Break up media monopoly? What monpoly? Are you going to start telling people what they can and can't sell and can and can't buy in 2016 in a free country?

[Guest MattP]

Was an interesting first day anyway Who knows what today will bring?

 

 

What do the Labour supporters on here think of the members decision to vote against holding a discussion on Brexit at the party conference as well? Seems a bit daft to me to not even discuss what it surely the main political issue of the day at the oppositions main meeting for the year?

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/john-mcdonnell-claims-brexit-number-8914917

[The Railway Man]

LABOUR HAVE COMMITTED TO BANNING FRACKING.

 

Every Green MP in the country probably just saw any chance of winning at the election go up in smoke

[Finnegan]

What's the anti war merchandise that mocks wounded soldiers?

[Rincewind]

So very true.

 

 

[Guest MattP]

11 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

What's the anti war merchandise that mocks wounded soldiers?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1851174/rally-run-by-jeremy-corbyns-pressure-group-mocks-crippled-british-troops-with-offensive-items-on-sale/

 

One for the Out!rage crew to get mad about.

 

6 minutes ago, Rincewind said:

So very true.

 

 

The pollsters, Labour are now as low as 26% and can't break 30%, UKIP are now closer to Labour than Labour are to the Tories.

 

Saying Corbyn is electable as PM because he has a mandate in Labour is as daft as saying Farage was in UKIP (and Farage had about 80% of his party members)

[Finnegan]

3 minutes ago, MattP said:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1851174/rally-run-by-jeremy-corbyns-pressure-group-mocks-crippled-british-troops-with-offensive-items-on-sale/

 

One for the Out!rage crew to get mad about.

 

The pollsters, Labour are now as low as 26% and can't break 30%, UKIP are now closer to Labour than Labour are to the Tories.

 

Saying Corbyn is electable as PM because he has a mandate in Labour is as daft as saying Farage was in UKIP (and Farage had about 80% of his party members)

 

Well.. that's pretty ****ing ill advised to say the least.

[Guest MattP]

4 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

 

Well.. that's pretty ****ing ill advised to say the least.

Let's be honest in a list of crimes committed by Momentum and it's activists it's pretty low on the scale, ask Bilo and he'll tell you about some of them.

 

I was more concerned about watching the shadow chancellor go live on television and stil stand by a quote of lynching female MP's yesterday.

[MPH]

1 hour ago, The Railway Man said:

LABOUR HAVE COMMITTED TO BANNING FRACKING.

 

Every Green MP in the country probably just saw any chance of winning at the election go up in smoke

 

They probably realize they need green support after the next general election to stand any chance of forming a government... It's a bit defeatist, but they already see a coalition as their best hope..

[Alf Bentley]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

 

What do the Labour supporters on here think of the members decision to vote against holding a discussion on Brexit at the party conference as well? Seems a bit daft to me to not even discuss what it surely the main political issue of the day at the oppositions main meeting for the year?

 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/john-mcdonnell-claims-brexit-number-8914917

 

I've rarely thought you guilty of understatement before, Matt, but you are here. 

 

Brexit isn't just the main political issue of the day, it's arguably the biggest political issue for several decades and likely to remain the biggest issue for many years to come, surely?

 

Labour selected 8 topics for debate but decided Brexit shouldn't be one of them?! What that says to me is that Labour (the party I've mainly voted for and am a member of) is currently not a serious democratic political party.

 

I suppose the counter-argument from Corbyn supporters is that "it's not all about power, we're building a social movement". Well, I'm all in favour of social movements and politics isn't all about government, but unless you believe in violent revolution (I don't - and I presume most Corbynistas don't), then that social movement has to engage with democracy and seek power at some point. Right now would seem a pretty good point to engage, given the array of political/economic problems we face, the rewriting of most of the terms of economics, politics and society under Brexit and the fact that the Tory government is divided and has a tiny majority.

 

A question for Corbynistas out there: what is the purpose of the "social movement" and how will that purpose be achieved?

 

I see there's a plan for Labour to train up thousands of members in doorstep campaigning, so it'll be interesting to see what comes of that. How many Corbynistas will commit to that - and remain committed to that after encountering lots of people who vote Tory/UKIP, want low taxes, support Brexit, oppose unilateral nuclear disarmament, want to cut immigration, don't trust parties that promise massive increases in public spending or who question meaningless Corbynista platitudes such as "social justice" & "decency".

 

 

29 minutes ago, Rincewind said:

So very true.

 

 

 

Am I misinterpreting this video clip? I'd assumed that it was taking the piss out of Corbynistas as well as "Blairites" and "Red Tories" (i.e. anyone not signed up to the Corbyn cult)?

 

As for Corbyn being "unelectable", obviously nobody questions the fact that Corbyn is electable by Labour members - he was elected by them a year ago. They question whether he is electable by the UK electorate as a whole.

- If the Kings Arms selects a poker team, Ken, I'm sure you'd be deemed "electable". That wouldn't make you "electable" on the top tables in Las Vegas.

- If I wanted to play for a pub team on Victoria Park, I could find a team desperate enough to select me. That wouldn't make me "electable" by Claudio Ranieri.

 

[The Railway Man]

54 minutes ago, MPH said:

 

They probably realize they need green support after the next general election to stand any chance of forming a government... It's a bit defeatist, but they already see a coalition as their best hope..

This would be an absolute diaster if it's the plan, even if every single Green voter switched to Labour it would only give them 11 more seats. The only places where the Greens are strong are where Labour already hold the seats anyway, places like Brighton, Norwich, Bristol etc - https://www.theguardian.com/science/2016/aug/28/what-would-happen-if-every-single-green-voter-switched-to-labour

 

That's not even starting on the point of how middle ground votes they would lose openly saying they would go into coalition with a group of people like them, it was bad enough when people thought it would be Labour and the SNP.