Labour party civil war

[Guest Sharpe's Fox]

1 hour ago, Darkon84 said:

Did anyone see Dispatches on C4 last night, going undercover in Momentum and Labour supporters groups etc? Unfortunately I only got to see the first 20 minutes before having to go out to play 5 a side, but it appears to have caused quite a stir on Twitter and, of course, the Huff Post, blaming the mainstream media for trying to smear the Labour left. I mean, come on, haven't any of those people watched Channel 4 news over the last couple of years? They've gone so far left and biased it's almost unbearable to watch at times, and now these people are claiming it's part of the MSM conspiracy against Corbyn. It's really quite laughable.

Anyway, I suppose I can't comment too much on it, having not watched the rest yet, but was wondering what other people's take on it was?

Absolute tosh. It was touted to be the great investigative journalist piece uncovering a Trotskyite plot to nationalise a four year olds lemonade stand and bring in corrective gulags for Tory voters. Instead all it showed was that people on the left are err...trying to get a guy on the left elected leader. Seriously, I think the most shocking thing it discovered was that Jeremy Corbyn can tell a decent joke.

[Guest Bilo]

[Alf Bentley]

Excellent letter about Corbyn here from a neutral stance: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/sep/20/the-labour-party-must-now-heal-its-self-inflicted-wounds

 

"[...] the most important thing about Jeremy Corbyn is what he symbolises to the thousands of people who have joined the Labour party since he became leader. After years of soulless Blairite pragmatism without principles, Corbyn represents a return to conviction and hope for radical change. The numbers inspired by Corbyn are not enough by a long shot to win an election. Nonetheless, it’s a huge number of people, and their energy and conviction could be a crucial part of a broader election-winning strategy.

But this should not blind us to the fact that Corbyn has proved extremely bad at the practical skills of leadership. After many years of being a backbench rebel, he has not taken well to the business of putting out press statements, formulating catchy messages that are repeated to death, putting together a simple narrative that gives people a sense of Labour’s positive vision. In the real world these are things you need to do if you want to cut through to the vast proportion of the electorate who don’t follow lefty politics on social media, and who get their politics by catching the odd line on the television or radio news".

 

Another excellent letter, ultimately hostile to Corbyn, but thoughtfully so: http://www.watfordobserver.co.uk/news/14751700.Letter__Float_towards_Jeremy_/

"Being a floating voter means both that I’m the sort of person Jeremy Corbyn needs to persuade if he’s to become PM, and also that I have given him and his policies a fair hearing. But, having had that hearing, as the Labour leadership election approaches its climax, I am dismayed at the thought of him ever leading our country. His political aspirations amount to vague “motherhood and apple pie” platitudes about social justice, but I began to have real doubts on hearing his first major economic policy announcement – the re-nationalising of the railways. Unlike many naive Corbynistas, I am old enough to remember the delights of nationalised railways, and am deeply frustrated that when Jeremy could have talked about advancing artificial intelligence, robotics, genetic engineering, green technology, or satellite communication he chose to resurrect the idea of a state-owned railway. [...] 

Turning to his much-vaunted claim of authenticity – I think this is based upon 30 years of sitting on his hands on the back benches, avoiding responsibility in a secure Labour seat [...]. Not for Jeremy the challenges of mastering the intricacies of the benefits, health, defence or taxation systems with a view to reforming them. He preferred to specialise in lost causes in faraway lands which posed few intellectual challenges [...]. A much more pleasant parliamentary life than labouring in a demanding opposition front bench or government job, with the added bonus of not having to tarnish his much vaunted principles with anything as sordid as making the tough choices required of serious politicians. 

Furthermore. his authenticity doesn’t appear to preclude cynical political “spinning” e.g. claiming a record of success in recent elections which falls apart at the slightest scrutiny, or pulling a silly transparent stunt such as the “I’m an ordinary guy having to sit on the floor of a train” episode".

 

[In case anyone jumps on the rail re-nationalization issue, I don't necessarily think that it's a bad idea, if done well, gradually and affordably. But Corbyn clearly favours wide-ranging re-nationalization in various industries - and nationalization is very costly, at a time when resources are scarce. Regulation can achieve as much at an infinitely lower cost, provided that the regulations are effective but do not create unnecessary bureaucratic obstacles.  Competition can also be as effective, where true competition is viable (not the case with the railways, which are natural near-monopolies). Corbyn operates on the Orwellian "public good, private bad" principle - just as infantile and misguided as the Thatcherite ultras who say "private good, public bad"]

 

[Rincewind]

good find Alf. Anyone else know that the depatches programme and one on the BBC were made by the same production team.  I'm waiting for a similar programme on Owen Smith for balance which will also say bad as well as good things about him.

I have seen different viewpoints about the programmes so cannot comment without seeing them myself.

Maybe Corbyn has awoken people's interest in politics in wanting a different approach and maybe his objectors are afraid their cushy way of life will have to change. I dont really think that is a bad thing.

[Jon the Hat]

I don't think that is it at all Ken.  I am never in a millions years going to be a Labour voter, but I am impacted here becuase we have a leader of the opposition who is not fit for the job.  He is clearly appealing to part of the electorate, but is not a man cut out to be a party leader, much less leader of the opposition.  He is not capable of holding together a shadow cabinet, let alone holding the government to account.  This is a fundamental duty of the opposition, and they are completely failing.  Sort it out.

[Rincewind]

you may be right but it is also true that many who post on on here have only seen right leaning Labour governments and opposition. In that context Corbyn is seen as a raving loony. The opposition for the past few years have been weak. You say he is not holding the government to account. In the past year since being leader he has managed to force changes or stop policies that would affect vulnerable people. When talking about him these are omitted. Owen Smith criticised him for blocking a policy that he voted for, which would reduce child tax credits for working mothers on low income. 

The only thing stopping Corbyn is that we now have a society that think of themselves. Its all very well having a caring society but if being caring reduces ones stndard of living then it is easier to turn the other way.

The reason Corbyn is unelectable is that the public school career politician is now rife in the Labour party and they will not let him change it. Maybe if he acted like them he'd have a better chance. Things like claim more than £10 a year on expenses who vote with the opposition over service cuts.

 

In other news I read that David Cameron is to charge over £1000 hr for after dinner talks on austerity.

I find that amusing true or not. Someone talking about people that cannot afford to see the talks to people that can whilst they are drinking £300 bottles of wine and champagne. No doubt there will be plenty of cheering and shouts of 'hear hear' but if that's how they get their jollies then let them. I'm off to the pub to see real mates.  

[Guest MattP]

On 9/20/2016 at 15:04, Sharpe's Fox said:

Absolute tosh. It was touted to be the great investigative journalist piece uncovering a Trotskyite plot to nationalise a four year olds lemonade stand and bring in corrective gulags for Tory voters. Instead all it showed was that people on the left are err...trying to get a guy on the left elected leader. Seriously, I think the most shocking thing it discovered was that Jeremy Corbyn can tell a decent joke.

To be fair it did show a lot of people in the group are clearly ready to push deselection despite publicly claiming they aren't and it showed how sly they are with regards to data etc - apart from that though it wasn't great if that was the best they could get.I did laugh when Corbyn cracked his Bond St/ISIS joke though

 

Anyway it's his election and Labour will carry on being a placard waving protest movement rather than a serious party of government, time for the rebels to put up or shut up, create the new party, become the opposition and send him and his rabble to the backbenches where they belong.

 

Whatever happens they can't say they weren't warned.

[Guest Sharpe's Fox]

Ken Loach made a good documentary of JC talking to people across different communities and experiences if you have the time and your into that sort of thing.

 

 

[Rincewind]

just saw a video by ken leach about how he explains the media is biased. Ignore the source watch the video. On my phone and do not have time to search for it elsewhere

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/09/20/ken-loach-just-proved-beyond-doubt-bbc-brainwashing-british-public-video/

[Buce]

26 minutes ago, Rincewind said:

just saw a video by ken leach about how he explains the media is biased. Ignore the source watch the video. On my phone and do not have time to search for it elsewhere

http://www.thecanary.co/2016/09/20/ken-loach-just-proved-beyond-doubt-bbc-brainwashing-british-public-video/

 

Who is Ken Leach?

[Rincewind]

ken Loach

 

[Claridge]

2 hours ago, Buce said:

 

Who is Ken Leach?

Goes in to make films about the poor,trousers a load of money and goes back to his upper class Luvvies.

leach fits him perfectly

[Guest MattP]

Is the Canary now the number one news source for the Corbynistas?

[Rincewind]

On 9/21/2016 at 21:44, Claridge said:

Goes in to make fil and a little ironicms about the poor,trousers a load of money and goes back to his upper class Luvvies.

leach fits him perfectly

That is funny and a little ironic.

[Guest MattP]

Corbyn could even be getting 65% of the vote tomorrow according to The Times today, although interestingly, among before May 2015 members, Smith is a comfortable winner. The insurgency is complete.

 

We really do live in amazing times, a man can take his former party of government below 30% consistently in the polls, even manage to lose to the Tories in the natural homeland, be proved to be lying on camera, oversee a huge surge in sexism and antisemitism and yet still be elected with an even bigger mandate than before

[stripeyfox]

I just don't get the whole Corbyn thing. I'm neither a Labour nor Tory traditionalist. I've voted for both in the past. I can sort of see the appeal of Corbyn to the left leaning type, but to me he looks like Mr Corbyn the sixth form history teacher. The guy is out of his depth, most of his MP's don't support him. That alone should be enough for a change at the time. But they've ringfenced themselves in with a ridiculous election process. 

 

It's like us being given the choice to elect our new manager and choosing Bernie.... then after Bernie gets us relegated to our lowest ebb and all the players say he has to go, we elect him again!
 

It's madness. Corbyn is never going to win an election. The tories must be pissing themselves as they can go on virtually unchecked.

 

Crazy

[Guest MattP]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/~/article-3804907/index.html

 

Can't make this up, the shadow minister for domestic violence was once cautioned for domestic violence. 

 

The party of parody carries on, I can't see us getting past the weekend without something kicking off; one Jewish MP is even having to take a bodyguard to her own party conference. 

[Guest Sharpe's Fox]

12 minutes ago, MattP said:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/~/article-3804907/index.html

 

Can't make this up, the shadow minister for domestic violence was once cautioned for domestic violence. 

 

The party of parody carries on, I can't see us getting past the weekend without something kicking off; one Jewish MP is even having to take a bodyguard to her own party conference. 

The former Tory equalities minister voted against gay marriage. Everyone has fingers in pies, Matt.

 

[stevelcfc]

As above, private polls suggest "at least 65/35"

[Guest MattP]

2 hours ago, Sharpe's Fox said:

The former Tory equalities minister voted against gay marriage. Everyone has fingers in pies, Matt.

Do you think these two things are comparable?

[Guest Sharpe's Fox]

12 minutes ago, MattP said:

Do you think these two things are comparable?

So on one side we have a women who struck her husband during an private argument and apologised for it, admitting she was wrong and has reconciled with her ex husband.

 

On the other we have a woman in parliament who used her power to deny people who love eachother a right to enshrine that in law on equal footing with straight couples. Even though it has no bearing on her life or indeed any straight couples lives whatsoever she ignored the responsibility of the government post she was appointed to to actively deny equality to others based on nothing more than their sexual orientation.

 

If anything the latter is worse, in my eyes.

[Nick]

Civil war over, close thread.

[Guest MattP]

I don't think even the most ardent Corbynista would be that naive Nick.

[Strokes]

I just hope he can remain in leadership until we leave the European Union, Corbyn leading the opposition right now, is good for brexit.

[Rincewind]

On 9/24/2016 at 11:48, Sharpe's Fox said:

So on one side we have a women who struck her husband during an private argument and apologised for it, admitting she was wrong and has reconciled with her ex husband.

 

On the other we have a woman in parliament who used her power to deny people who love eachother a right to enshrine that in law on equal footing with straight couples. Even though it has no bearing on her life or indeed any straight couples lives whatsoever she ignored the responsibility of the government post she was appointed to to actively deny equality to others based on nothing more than their sexual orientation.

 

If anything the latter is worse, in my eyes.

Exactly. How can you have someone in charge of equal rights being against equal rights?

Oh well hopefully all the petty namecalling and one upmanship will soon be over.