Labour party civil war

[Finnegan]

I had the same argument with a Corbyn supporter on Friday, Alf. I don't understand how you can gleefully back a man who seems happy to be unelectable.

 

I said the same thing, either you advocate actual revolution or you've got to engage the current democratic system, however flawed you believe it is.

 

I'd say that Corbyn standing as labour leader does more harm to his own cause as good. If he had a shred of charisma, he could be a voice for political and social change without actually being an MP at all. Plenty of great social reformers and philosophers weren't elected officials. 

 

But if even the more radical left want a tolerable middle ground as a temporary compromise then that's going to come from playing the game.

 

Put another way, would you (not literally you, an archetypal Corbynista) rather wait for La Revolution with a Tory government or a Labour one in the interim?

[Guest MattP]

47 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

I've rarely thought you guilty of understatement before, Matt, but you are here. 

 

Brexit isn't just the main political issue of the day, it's arguably the biggest political issue for several decades and likely to remain the biggest issue for many years to come, surely?

 

Labour selected 8 topics for debate but decided Brexit shouldn't be one of them?! What that says to me is that Labour (the party I've mainly voted for and am a member of) is currently not a serious democratic political party.

 

I suppose the counter-argument from Corbyn supporters is that "it's not all about power, we're building a social movement". Well, I'm all in favour of social movements and politics isn't all about government, but unless you believe in violent revolution (I don't - and I presume most Corbynistas don't), then that social movement has to engage with democracy and seek power at some point. Right now would seem a pretty good point to engage, given the array of political/economic problems we face, the rewriting of most of the terms of economics, politics and society under Brexit and the fact that the Tory government is divided and has a tiny majority.

 

A question for Corbynistas out there: what is the purpose of the "social movement" and how will that purpose be achieved?

 

I see there's a plan for Labour to train up thousands of members in doorstep campaigning, so it'll be interesting to see what comes of that. How many Corbynistas will commit to that - and remain committed to that after encountering lots of people who vote Tory/UKIP, want low taxes, support Brexit, oppose unilateral nuclear disarmament, want to cut immigration, don't trust parties that promise massive increases in public spending or who question meaningless Corbynista platitudes such as "social justice" & "decency".

You are right, it was an understatement, it's the biggest political issue possibly of our lifetime, it's quite staggering they believe there are eight issues at this time more worthy of debating. They've picked the NHS, Grammar Schools, Refugees, Housing and four others (Do you know what they were?)

 

It looks like Corbyn is going to avoid any debate on the issue itself and despite McDonnell saying it would be the number one topic in his speech he has barely mentioned it as yet, this isn't going to pass as holding May to account on the negotiation. It smacks of running away from the issue because they are scared of disagreement.

 

On the last point, they certainly will need training, I encountered a couple during the EU referendum, they actually seemed fairly nice people, but they knew absolutely nothing about politics and it felt like speaking to Green party members more than Labour ones, they will go down like a lead balloon if they start bussing these lot in to the areas Labour need to win around Kent and the Midlands.

[Guest MattP]

Although this is weirder than anything seen at the conference so far, he now appears to be now so fond of protesting he's even protesting against himself and his own decisions.

 

[Jon the Hat]

Great tweet from Hugo

 

 

[Rincewind]

I thought it was the Tories. By fighting amongst themselves they are making it easy for the Tories push through policies without anyone noticing. The media are more concerned about whether Corbyn sits or stands on a train than cuts to services.

[Rincewind]

What not discussing Brexit says to me is that there are more important things to worry about. The country voted out so as a democracy it should be honoured. What can be achieved by discussing it? They should be uniting against the Tories not finding more things to squabble about.

[foxy boxing]

so Jeremy Corbyn still wants to pursue our brave and honourable troops from the Iraq war. I get it the guy hates war and other institutions but being prime minister is about making these tough decisions. we can't have a prime minister that is so inactive in his decision making and saying he will never use the military. he thinks if we disarm then we won't be attacked or harmed and that terrorist groups would just leave us alone. the man would be extremely dangerous prime minister and it would be up to other Labour members to see if they can control him

[The Railway Man]

1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

I'd say that Corbyn standing as labour leader does more harm to his own cause as good. If he had a shred of charisma, he could be a voice for political and social change without actually being an MP at all. Plenty of great social reformers and philosophers weren't elected officials. 

This is a great point, in fact we've just seen one of those from the right side of politics in Nigel Farage change history for what he believed in after building a mass movement and he never even entered the House of Commons.

 

All this lot have done is railroaded and destroyed the one party that ever had a chance of being a left wing government in Britain.

[Jon the Hat]

11 minutes ago, foxy boxing said:

so Jeremy Corbyn still wants to pursue our brave and honourable troops from the Iraq war. I get it the guy hates war and other institutions but being prime minister is about making these tough decisions. we can't have a prime minister that is so inactive in his decision making and saying he will never use the military. he thinks if we disarm then we won't be attacked or harmed and that terrorist groups would just leave us alone. the man would be extremely dangerous prime minister and it would be up to other Labour members to see if they can control him

 

I really wouldn't worry about it.  I have more chance of becoming prime minister than Jeremy Corbyn, and I have not entered the political arena as yet.

[Jon the Hat]

8 minutes ago, The Railway Man said:

This is a great point, in fact we've just seen one of those from the right side of politics in Nigel Farage change history for what he believed in after building a mass movement and he never even entered the House of Commons.

 

All this lot have done is railroaded and destroyed the one party that ever had a chance of being a left wing government in Britain.

They haven't destroyed it yet, but they are having a good go aren't they?

[Jon the Hat]

32 minutes ago, Rincewind said:

I thought it was the Tories. By fighting amongst themselves they are making it easy for the Tories push through policies without anyone noticing. The media are more concerned about whether Corbyn sits or stands on a train than cuts to services.

It was a joke Ken. 

 

13 minutes ago, Rincewind said:

What not discussing Brexit says to me is that there are more important things to worry about. The country voted out so as a democracy it should be honoured. What can be achieved by discussing it? They should be uniting against the Tories not finding more things to squabble about.

You make it sound so simple!  Perhaps you should tap up David Davis for a SPAD role.

[davieG]

16 minutes ago, Rincewind said:

What not discussing Brexit says to me is that there are more important things to worry about. The country voted out so as a democracy it should be honoured. What can be achieved by discussing it? They should be uniting against the Tories not finding more things to squabble about.

The EU has had an impact on every aspect of our lives and how we live/manage it therefore Brexit will have an equal impact on how we extract ourselves from it and that includes all the things that they are likely to discuss things which you can't move forward on without scrutinising how Brexit will affect it

[Alf Bentley]

I despair, I really do.

 

Re. Jon's Rifkind tweet, I have the impression that "their real enemy" is anyone who isn't a Corbyn supporter. It's a really bizarre phenomenon. The closest equivalent is the mass hysteria when Princess Diana died. It seems to be rooted in some strange combination of desperation and/or narcissism and/or the inability to think rationally, as I understand it.

 

It's not just naive students, either. I could understand that. The younger Corbyn fans are entitled by age to be idealistic. But I've been in receipt of Corbynista Facebook memes with hostile comments describing anyone who doesn't see him as the Messiah as a "Tory", "Blairite", "Red Tory" etc.....and these have come from highly-educated, middle-aged people (even a retired university lecturer in his 70s!). None of them have been personally nasty to me, but none have withdrawn those sort of "Red Tory" comments when challenged. In the real world, Labour needs a decent slice of the "Blairite" centrist vote to achieve anything - and I'm not even a Blairite, yet am seen as the enemy.

 

I've heard some Corbynistas say that they don't need the support of Blairite centrists (and presumably soft-left people like me), never mind converting Tory and UKIP voters, as they're going to win the support of vast numbers of disillusioned non-voters.

There is the potential to win some support that way (43% turnout by under-25s in 2015; low turnout in deprived areas).....but good luck winning another 4-5 million votes, not counting all the swing voters and "Blairites" you've alienated!

Also, when habitual non-voters DID vote in larger numbers, it was to vote Leave in the EU referendum. Deeply alienated non-voters aren't necessarily going to want unilateral nuclear disarmament, open-door immigration and platitudes about "social justice".

 

I assume that the Tories now have free rein for at least a couple of years. If there's no early general election, it would surely take at least 2 years of appalling local election results for another leadership challenge to succeed. Defeat under Corbyn at an early general election might be Labour's best hope! In the meantime, everything will be in flux with Brexit. Maybe the Tories will unite and rewrite the rules of society as they see fit. Maybe they'll end up chaotically divided between "hard Brexit" and "soft Brexit" factions or maybe the economy will take a major downturn once the reality of Brexit becomes clearer......but if so, it doesn't look as if Labour will be well-positioned to capitalise on that. It's just as likely that any discontent with the Tory Govt could benefit UKIP or someone much worse. Labour have actually been quite lucky in that UKIP have been going nowhere fast recently - but that won't necessarily continue.

 

I'd love to believe that the 2 Labour factions will work together constructively now, but can't see it happening. Corbyn is already effectively washing his hands of the deselection issue, leaving it up to constituencies - and the serious, organised Trots will certainly be scenting blood with the likes of Angela Eagle, Frank Field, the MP for Hove etc. The boundary changes absolutely play into the hands of the Corbynistas, too, as a lot of contests between sitting MPs and Corbynist challengers will happen automatically, as all candidates, including sitting MPs, will be seeking nominations for new seats - so no need for a specific challenge, and doubtless Corbynistas will win many of them through grassroots organisation by Momentum.

 

 

[Rincewind]

a good interview with the star of the film I David Blake premiering in the US. It tells of a 59yr old joiner who suddenly becomes too ill to work. He is due to speak at the Labour conference.

http://unitelive.org/so-much-anger-so-much-pain/

[davieG]

It comes across like the ying to the yang of the 1930 nationalism with it's fawning and hysteria of political leaders but without any sort of charisma.

 

Well I know what I mean.

[Rincewind]

well he says Ken Loach only gave them a days script at a time so he experienced it in real time. Whats portrayed in the film is happening to people on a day to day basis. It is real life not hysteria. That is what those that put these things in place want you to believe and they use the media to do it.

[Guest MattP]

1 hour ago, Rincewind said:

What not discussing Brexit says to me is that there are more important things to worry about. The country voted out so as a democracy it should be honoured. What can be achieved by discussing it? They should be uniting against the Tories not finding more things to squabble about.

I honestly don't know what to say with this, it's the most important negotiation this country has faced since the aftermath WW2, you can't pretend it doesn't exist.

 

I'm a Conservative leaning supporter who voted for Brexit and even I want, in fact demand that the department for exiting the European Union is held to account in what it does in those negotiations by a competent opposition party in a robust and thoughful way.

 

37 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

I've heard some Corbynistas say that they don't need the support of Blairite centrists (and presumably soft-left people like me), never mind converting Tory and UKIP voters, as they're going to win the support of vast numbers of disillusioned non-voters.

There is the potential to win some support that way (43% turnout by under-25s in 2015; low turnout in deprived areas).....but good luck winning another 4-5 million votes, not counting all the swing voters and "Blairites" you've alienated!

Also, when habitual non-voters DID vote in larger numbers, it was to vote Leave in the EU referendum. Deeply alienated non-voters aren't necessarily going to want unilateral nuclear disarmament, open-door immigration and platitudes about "social justice".

 

I assume that the Tories now have free rein for at least a couple of years. If there's no early general election, it would surely take at least 2 years of appalling local election results for another leadership challenge to succeed. Defeat under Corbyn at an early general election might be Labour's best hope! In the meantime, everything will be in flux with Brexit. Maybe the Tories will unite and rewrite the rules of society as they see fit. Maybe they'll end up chaotically divided between "hard Brexit" and "soft Brexit" factions or maybe the economy will take a major downturn once the reality of Brexit becomes clearer......but if so, it doesn't look as if Labour will be well-positioned to capitalise on that. It's just as likely that any discontent with the Tory Govt could benefit UKIP or someone much worse. Labour have actually been quite lucky in that UKIP have been going nowhere fast recently - but that won't necessarily continue.

 

I'd love to believe that the 2 Labour factions will work together constructively now, but can't see it happening. Corbyn is already effectively washing his hands of the deselection issue, leaving it up to constituencies - and the serious, organised Trots will certainly be scenting blood with the likes of Angela Eagle, Frank Field, the MP for Hove etc. The boundary changes absolutely play into the hands of the Corbynistas, too, as a lot of contests between sitting MPs and Corbynist challengers will happen automatically, as all candidates, including sitting MPs, will be seeking nominations for new seats - so no need for a specific challenge, and doubtless Corbynistas will win many of them through grassroots organisation by Momentum.

This is the argument I get all the time from the Corbynistas on social media, they are going to win with people who haven't voted, it's so laughable I don't know where to start with, even you wilfully ignore what seemed obvious after the European Union referendum (where a lot of these people came out to vote against things like mass immigration which Corbyn supports) then you can't ignore how the system actually works, the seats with the lowest turnout percentages are in the main Labour ones anyway, there aren't 10,000 non voters in seats like Loughborough just waiting for a man like Jeremy Corbyn turn up so the Labour party can sweep to power again with a socialist mandate.

 

There is absolutely no way Labour can win an election without getting over million people at the least who voted Tory last time to switch to them, that isn't going to happen by insulting everyone who doesn't agree with them and referring to everyone who votes Tory as a bastard.

 

The de-selections are going to happen, if any of the centist MP's seriously take the word of Corbyn and McDonnell they have only themselves to blame, only last week we saw on Channel 4 leaders of local parties saying on hidden camera that a lot of MP's have a right to be nervous, as you say the boundary reviews give them a prfect chance to do this. (which also in turn again means Tories will be putting through change without any serious opposition)

 

Theresa May must be so torn at the minute, my hunch is she would love to call an election and get what should be a 100 seat majority, but when you see the carnage and destruction this man has managed to cause in just 12 months the Conservatives must be prepared to bypass anything to leave him in charge for 5 years.

I still wouldn't bet on him resigning after losing an election, I can see a situation where they blame the MSM, Zionists, Blarites etc and how they were still too "right wing to win" and then go again in 2025 with an even more left wing agenda, I don't think the people who have the party by the balls now actually live in the real World.

[Guest MattP]

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/labour-party/news/79326/clive-lewis-trident-speech-changed-seumas-milne

 

Even his allies are being controlled by the forces behind Corbyn. This is like something out of The Thick of It.

Quote

 

Clive Lewis' speech pledging not to change Labour's pro-Trident policy was changed by spin doctor Seumas Milne on the autocue as he waited to deliver it, PoliticsHome has learned.

In a major humiliation, the Shadow Defence Secretary was only notified by post-it note as he sat on the stage waiting to walk to the podium.

He is said to have punched a wall in anger when he came off stage.

PoliticsHome has also learned that Jeremy Corbyn had agreed the original text with Mr Lewis - but appears to have been over-ruled by his chief spin doctor Mr Milne.

Mr Lewis had been due to say he "would not seek to change" his party's policy of backing renewal of the UK's Trident submarines.

But that was taken out, meaning he only said it was "clear that our party has a policy for Trident renewal".

A senior Labour source said: "Clive punched a wall when he came off the stage because Seumas altered his speech on the autocue.

"He was fuming as he sent a post-it note on stage as he was sat there ready to speak and didn't know what the exact change was. Apparently Clive had agreed it with Jeremy but Seumas changed it."

A spokesman for Mr Corbyn said: "All speeches are put together in conjunction with the leader's office. It was confirmed to Clive that the agreed speech had been amended on the autocue."

Mr Lewis is co-chairing a review of Labour'd defence policy with Shadow Foreign Secretary Emily Thornberry.

Both of them abstained when the Commons voted in July to go ahead with Trident renewal.

Lifelong anti-nuclear campaigner Mr Corbyn voted against.

 

 

[Claridge]

2 hours ago, MattP said:

I honestly don't know what to say with this, it's the most important negotiation this country has faced since the aftermath WW2, you can't pretend it doesn't exist.

 

I'm a Conservative leaning supporter who voted for Brexit and even I want, in fact demand that the department for exiting the European Union is held to account in what it does in those negotiations by a competent opposition party in a robust and thoughful way.

 

This is the argument I get all the time from the Corbynistas on social media, they are going to win with people who haven't voted, it's so laughable I don't know where to start with, even you wilfully ignore what seemed obvious after the European Union referendum (where a lot of these people came out to vote against things like mass immigration which Corbyn supports) then you can't ignore how the system actually works, the seats with the lowest turnout percentages are in the main Labour ones anyway, there aren't 10,000 non voters in seats like Loughborough just waiting for a man like Jeremy Corbyn turn up so the Labour party can sweep to power again with a socialist mandate.

 

There is absolutely no way Labour can win an election without getting over million people at the least who voted Tory last time to switch to them, that isn't going to happen by insulting everyone who doesn't agree with them and referring to everyone who votes Tory as a bastard.

 

The de-selections are going to happen, if any of the centist MP's seriously take the word of Corbyn and McDonnell they have only themselves to blame, only last week we saw on Channel 4 leaders of local parties saying on hidden camera that a lot of MP's have a right to be nervous, as you say the boundary reviews give them a prfect chance to do this. (which also in turn again means Tories will be putting through change without any serious opposition)

 

Theresa May must be so torn at the minute, my hunch is she would love to call an election and get what should be a 100 seat majority, but when you see the carnage and destruction this man has managed to cause in just 12 months the Conservatives must be prepared to bypass anything to leave him in charge for 5 years.

I still wouldn't bet on him resigning after losing an election, I can see a situation where they blame the MSM, Zionists, Blarites etc and how they were still too "right wing to win" and then go again in 2025 with an even more left wing agenda, I don't think the people who have the party by the balls now actually live in the real World.

I wouldn't mind betting,that a lot of non voters are rather more right wing than left anyway. 

[The Horse's Mouth]

Chukka wont have a coup, it's over. This was the chance & it was a seriously bad attempt.

[Webbo]

Stop being a red tory @Alf Bentley and join us real ones. You know it makes sense.

[leicsmac]

26 minutes ago, Webbo said:

Stop being a red tory @Alf Bentley and join us real ones. You know it makes sense.

[Alf Bentley]

3 hours ago, Webbo said:

Stop being a red tory @Alf Bentley and join us real ones. You know it makes sense.

 

Get away with you, you blue socialist! (well, you're to the left of 1 or 2 on here)

[Guest MattP]

15 hours ago, Webbo said:

Stop being a red tory @Alf Bentley and join us real ones. You know it makes sense.

We laugh about it, but some of the people now rising to the top of this party would call Alf (and Bilo) Tories, despite the fact they have spent all there life when discussing politics fighting against them, that's how obtuse some of these people are, it's a binary choice, you are either a Corbyn supporter or a Tory.

 

Cracking cartoon in the The Times today on McDonnell

 

[Finnegan]

18 hours ago, Claridge said:

I wouldn't mind betting,that a lot of non voters are rather more right wing than left anyway. 

I wouldn't mind betting that a lot more non voters are massively apolitical and couldn't tell you the difference between left and right wing TBH.