Nick Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 Just now, purpleronnie said: So with so many European elections next year will we continue to see the right dominate? Time for the left to mobilize....but they won't. They'll have to. It did make me smile though when May went to India looking for a decent trade deal and the first response was, Err well we're gonna need a better immigration policy for our workers in Britain rather being monitored which is a bit OTT eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Realist Guy In The Room Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 Listening to people like Tim Farron and Chuka this morning really shows why votes like this and brexit happen. If your only position is, 'we're right and you're wrong' you will never win anything ever again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 I do agree that incessant identity politics are partially to blame. If you consistently bring race and gender into democratic chouce it's inevitable you'll end up with a divisive result. If the progressive, centre ground wants to win the battle against extremism, they should focus on education and inequality and not only identity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 2 minutes ago, purpleronnie said: So with so many European elections next year will we continue to see the right dominate? Time for the left to mobilize....but they won't. Well France is certainly going to the right, Hollande is toast, it's just a question of how far to the right they go and whether it's going to Juppe, Sarkozy or Le Pen, Merkel has Germany tied up, although she now has a hell of a job on her with a Europe that can no longer count on the USA's unconditional support via NATO. Given the policies that have been pushed by the left over the last 20 years surely no one should be surprised people are now starting to rebel, the voices will get louder with every single one as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 2 minutes ago, Realist Guy In The Room said: Listening to people like Tim Farron and Chuka this morning really shows why votes like this and brexit happen. If your only position is, 'we're right and you're wrong' you will never win anything ever again. They'll never learn, they are too far gone to chance, they'll blame it again on the poor, the uneducated etc People who didn't understand what they were voting for, heard it all before. It will be everyone's fault but their own, it's pathetic listening to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GazzinderFox Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 2 minutes ago, Voll Blau said: You said "many of the democratic left". That's clearly not the case is it, in the same way that I don't believe "many of the democratic right" want Clinton executed in spite of a few posts I've seen on the internet. The reality in both cases is "a few twats of [insert political leaning here] wish death upon someone who has the opposing views to them". Not exactly a shock in my book, and certainly not worth tarring more people than necessary of any persuasion with that brush. Oh I see what you did there. Not content with blowing out of all proportion my initial statement, you've then omitted the words preceding my quote to subtly change it's meaning and then you've gone on to say 'well both sides do it so it's all right'. Great stuff. Why don't you get stuffed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alf Bentley Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 10 minutes ago, Bob Weasel Fox said: Yep I agree Webbo my wife was typically over the top this morning bless her and started saying "well that's the end of the world then" perspective people (including the wife ) Largely agree, in the short-term, at least. If anything, there might be LESS chance of WW3 if Trump reduces US commitment to NATO and adopts isolationist policies. I'd be pretty nervous if I was a Mexican living in the US or a native of the Baltic States, mind. I can almost hear Putin slavering in anticipation of US isolationism vis-a-vis Europe. In UK politics, keeping an independent nuclear deterrent suddenly doesn't seem such a bad idea....though Liam Fox won't be feeling optimistic about a UK-US trade deal. What happens to the US economy and global economy in the medium-term is more worrying. What will be the reaction Stateside when Trump fails to bring back millions of manufacturing jobs to the Rust Belt? Or if prospects for American white van man get worse not better? What happens to the global economy if the US adopts a much more restrictive, nationalist/isolationist stance to international trade? The UK and Europe are both struggling economically already without trade barriers. We could do without the social stresses caused by more stagnation/recession - and the potential for it to stoke political extremism. Ah, well! Life is still good....until such time as it goes bad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 6 minutes ago, GazzinderFox said: Oh I see what you did there. Not content with blowing out of all proportion my initial statement, you've then omitted the words preceding my quote to subtly change it's meaning and then you've gone on to say 'well both sides do it so it's all right'. Great stuff. Why don't you get stuffed? A lesson in not blowing stuff out of proportion from someone who writes "Funny how many of" when they actually mean "Funny how a few of", and who apparently can't be arsed to do their own research to back up their point. OK then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 10 minutes ago, MattP said: Given the policies that have been pushed by the left over the last 20 years surely no one should be surprised people are now starting to rebel, the voices will get louder with every single one as well. As I and a couple of other posters have already opined, it's not policy of 'the left' that people are necessarily rebelling against. 12 minutes ago, MattP said: It will be everyone's fault but their own. You could say the same thing about Trump voters blaming immigrants and bankers for their woes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 5 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said: Largely agree, in the short-term, at least. If anything, there might be LESS chance of WW3 if Trump reduces US commitment to NATO and adopts isolationist policies. I'd be pretty nervous if I was a Mexican living in the US or a native of the Baltic States, mind. I can almost hear Putin slavering in anticipation of US isolationism vis-a-vis Europe. In UK politics, keeping an independent nuclear deterrent suddenly doesn't seem such a bad idea....though Liam Fox won't be feeling optimistic about a UK-US trade deal. What happens to the US economy and global economy in the medium-term is more worrying. What will be the reaction Stateside when Trump fails to bring back millions of manufacturing jobs to the Rust Belt? Or if prospects for American white van man get worse not better? What happens to the global economy if the US adopts a much more restrictive, nationalist/isolationist stance to international trade? The UK and Europe are both struggling economically already without trade barriers. We could do without the social stresses caused by more stagnation/recession - and the potential for it to stoke political extremism. Ah, well! Life is still good....until such time as it goes bad! I was going to mention this in my earlier thoughts but forgot, the case for scrapping Trident has just vanished overnight. We should be optimistic on a trade deal though (back of queue my arse Obama!) maybe even a job now for Mr Farage on the negotiating team? A friendly face who seems to have the ear of Donald Trump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 3 minutes ago, bovril said: As I and a couple of other posters have already opined, it's not policy of 'the left' that people are necessarily rebelling against. You could say the same thing about Trump voters blaming immigrants and bankers for their woes. I was going to make a similar point in response to @purpleronnie. It's not so much about elections results going "to the right" but going to populist candidates who are voicing the concerns and disillusionment of a lot of people towards mainstream politics. Brexit was an interesting example because it got shoehorned in to left=stay, leave=right when actually there were staunch socialists against the EU and raging conservative capitalists very pro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GazzinderFox Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 1 minute ago, Voll Blau said: A lesson in not blowing stuff out of proportion from someone who writes "Funny how many of" when they actually mean "Funny how a few of", and who apparently can't be arsed to do their own research to back up their point. OK then. There you go again. Amazing how you can tell what I meant to say despite the fact that we've never met. How do you do that? I bet you're a proper revisionist aren't you? You do the research chump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bovril Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 2 minutes ago, Finnegan said: I was going to make a similar point in response to @purpleronnie. It's not so much about elections results going "to the right" but going to populist candidates who are voicing the concerns and disillusionment of a lot of people towards mainstream politics. Obvious historical parallels are obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GazzinderFox Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 2 minutes ago, bovril said: Obvious historical parallels are obvious. Subtle historical parallels are less so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest MattP Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 #ivankatrump2024 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barky Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 It is interesting if the income figures show that it's not actually/only genuinely downtrodden people voting for trump. Like with brexit where we saw many baby boomers from nice towns and villages voting leave. A generation of people more privilged than any before were somehow so dissatisfied with life that they needed to vote for change, whatever the reality of that change meant. Now again we're being told that this was all about sticking it to the establishment, but even if trump voters are mostly working class, they are still the working class of the richest nation on earth. They are the most privileged working class in history and yet, theyre so dissatisfied that they felt the need to vote for some sort of change. Let's be clear we're not talking about genuinely hard done to people here, we're talking about people who live relatively wealthy and comfortable lives, who are on a global scale part of the elite, whose only complaints seem to be the fact that if they act in a brash old fashioned way someone might call you a name on facebook. Jesus, if thats the worst thing life is throwing at you then you're doing alright. Downtrodden? Disaffected? Get a ****ing grip. I dont know what the root causes of this petty dissatisfaction are, but I wouldnt mind betting that social media doesnt help. Way too easy these days to see people who apparently have a better lofe than you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 3 minutes ago, GazzinderFox said: There you go again. Amazing how you can tell what I meant to say despite the fact that we've never met. How do you do that? I bet you're a proper revisionist aren't you? You do the research chump. Well, all I can go on is what you wrote? If you'd care to clarify then I'm all ears. The burden isn't on me to prove your point for you. From what I've seen, it's not "funny how many of the democratic left are calling for Trumps assassination..." because they're not - despite your assertion that they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 6 minutes ago, Finnegan said: Brexit was an interesting example because it got shoehorned in to left=stay, leave=right when actually there were staunch socialists against the EU and raging conservative capitalists very pro. I argued this throughout the debate, the lefts case for brexit was arguably much stronger. No idea why it turned into a left vs right thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 Just now, Strokes said: I argued this throughout the debate, the lefts case for brexit was arguably much stronger. No idea why it turned into a left vs right thing Simplicity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 1 minute ago, Finnegan said: Simplicity. Old foes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 Just now, Barky said: It is interesting if the income figures show that it's not actually/only genuinely downtrodden people voting for trump. Like with brexit where we saw many baby boomers from nice towns and villages voting leave. A generation of people more privilged than any before were somehow so dissatisfied with life that they needed to vote for change, whatever the reality of that change meant. Now again we're being told that this was all about sticking to the establishment, but even if trump voters are mostly working class, they are still the working class of the richest nation on earth. They are the most privileged working class in history and yet, theyre so dissatisfied that they felt the need to vote for some sort of change. Let's be clear we're not talking about genuinely hard done to people here, we're talking about people who live relatively wealthy and comfortable lives, who are on a global scale part of the elite, whose only complaints seem to be the fact that if they act in a brash old fashioned way someone might call you a name on facebook. Jesus, if thats the worst thing life is throwing at you then you're doing alright. Downtrodden? Disaffected? Get a ****ing grip. I dont know what the root causes of this petty dissatisfaction are, but I wouldnt mind betting that social media doesnt help. Way too easy these days to see people who apparently have a better lofe than you. Do you seriously think it would seem that way to them though? Everything is relative. Within the context of the society they see around them they aren't "privileged" at all. You can't just put a picture in front of them of starving Syrian kiddies and go "this lot have it shitter than you so don't vote for this loon". In fact, it's that exact kind of prescriptivist thinking from the political classes that's leading to this kind of disaffection on a grand scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GazzinderFox Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 4 minutes ago, Voll Blau said: Well, all I can go on is what you wrote? If you'd care to clarify then I'm all ears. The burden isn't on me to prove your point for you. From what I've seen, it's not "funny how many of the democratic left are calling for Trumps assassination..." because they're not - despite your assertion that they are. What evidence would it take to satisfy you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voll Blau Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 Just now, GazzinderFox said: What evidence would it take to satisfy you? Proof that many of the democratic left are calling for Trump's assassination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finnegan Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 Nobody's going to assassinate Trump ffs. The only weirdos daft enough for that just ****ing elected him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GazzinderFox Posted 9 November 2016 Share Posted 9 November 2016 Just now, Voll Blau said: Proof that many of the democratic left are calling for Trump's assassination. So 100 people or 1,000 people who are democrats and who are on the left? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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