President Trump & the USA

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, toddybad said:

Spot on.

 

 

 

More anti-semitism...

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Buce said:

 

More anti-semitism...

Evidently.

I sure TM will have a robust exchange of views with Netanyahu on the telephone before trying to sell him arms though.

[Guest MattP]

2 hours ago, toddybad said:

Spot on.

 

 

I think what Jeremy meant was “There must be a UN investigation before any blame is allocated.”

 

Like it is when it's the Russians? Surely?

[Guest]

6 hours ago, MattP said:

I think what Jeremy meant was “There must be a UN investigation before any blame is allocated.”

 

Like it is when it's the Russians? Surely?

One of them you can watch happening, the other you can only see the aftermath. Though it's a fair point. That said, our current policy in the region is not something we should be proud of imo.

 

Which bit do you disagree with more generally anyway? There are 54 dead and 1,200-2,400 wounded for protesting. There has been condemnation across the board including from the UN Human Rights Chief. Why do you accept such bloodshed from certain countries but not others?

[Guest MattP]

4 hours ago, toddybad said:

One of them you can watch happening, the other you can only see the aftermath. Though it's a fair point. That said, our current policy in the region is not something we should be proud of imo.

 

Which bit do you disagree with more generally anyway? There are 54 dead and 1,200-2,400 wounded for protesting. There has been condemnation across the board including from the UN Human Rights Chief. Why do you accept such bloodshed from certain countries but not others?

 

My post was in no way a defence of the IDF - I've got no doubt Hamas have again behaved terribly but no one can even justify firing live ammunition into civilians when there is no immediate threat to life.

 

Just again pointing out the absurd hypocrisy of Corbyn, wants a mass of evidence when his mates are killing civilians (knowing full well a veto will come to stop that happening) but happy to jump to conclusions when it's his enemy killing civilians. 

[ealingfox]

9 minutes ago, MattP said:

My post was in no way a defence of the IDF - I've got no doubt Hamas have again behaved terribly but no one can even justify firing live ammunition into civilians when there is no immediate threat to life.

 

Just again pointing out the absurd hypocrisy of Corbyn, wants a mass of evidence when his mates are killing civilians (knowing full well a veto will come to stop that happening) but happy to jump to conclusions when it's his enemy killing civilians. 

 

How is it jumping to conclusions? The Israelis are freely admitting to having done it. They had someone on newsnight last night attempting to justify it.

[Guest]

The Guardian view on Gaza shootings: stop killing unarmed civilians

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/may/14/the-guardian-view-on-gaza-shootings-stop-killing-unarmed-civilians?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

[breadandcheese]

Taking this back to Trump, as I'm not sure there's anyone disagreeing that the Israeli army shouldn't have been using live fire, I'm not sure why the embassy move is such a hot potato issue and can't help feel it's being stoked up.

 

The US embassy is in the Western side of the city, which has always been under Israeli control and is not at all disputed by the International Community.  So I don't understand why the US cannot site its embassy there.  Trump has said that the status of the Eastern side is to be determined by the Israelis and Palestinians, so he has not said that the whole of Jerusalem is Israel's capital (as has been reported), so I don't get how it is "changing the status quo".  

 

Ironically, we have a Palestinian consulate in East Jerualem, rather than Ramallah, which is fine, but our country's embassy is in Tel Aviv, not West Jerusalem.

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, breadandcheese said:

Taking this back to Trump, as I'm not sure there's anyone disagreeing that the Israeli army shouldn't have been using live fire, I'm not sure why the embassy move is such a hot potato issue and can't help feel it's being stoked up.

 

The US embassy is in the Western side of the city, which has always been under Israeli control and is not at all disputed by the International Community.  So I don't understand why the US cannot site its embassy there.  Trump has said that the status of the Eastern side is to be determined by the Israelis and Palestinians, so he has not said that the whole of Jerusalem is Israel's capital (as has been reported), so I don't get how it is "changing the status quo".  

 

Ironically, we have a Palestinian consulate in East Jerualem, rather than Ramallah, which is fine, but our country's embassy is in Tel Aviv, not West Jerusalem.

2

You'd be surprised - I've seen a dozen comments, some official governmental ones even, along the lines of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" which basically amounts to the same thing.

 

The issue is pretty nuanced, yeah - but like too many other issues of its type people like to reduce it to black-and-white, good-and-evil, us-and-them polarisation.

[Guest MattP]

4 hours ago, leicsmac said:

You'd be surprised - I've seen a dozen comments, some official governmental ones even, along the lines of "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" which basically amounts to the same thing.

Hardly surprising. That's what happens when two sides hate each other.

 

I still don't think there can be justification for firing live ammo to such an extent though I'm not a security expert, but we also shouldn't forget what a lot of those people approaching that border were intending to do - carry out the instructions from Hamas to murder or kidnap Israeli soldiers or citizens.

[leicsmac]

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

Hardly surprising. That's what happens when two sides hate each other.

 

I still don't think there can be justification for firing live ammo to such an extent though I'm not a security expert, but we also shouldn't forget what a lot of those people approaching that border were intending to do - carry out the instructions from Hamas to murder or kidnap Israeli soldiers or citizens.

Yeah, agreed, which I was making the point that it doesn't surprise me that some folks are happy with the IDF mowing down civilians as they did. Some people are so lost in hatred and lust for power that they enjoy that - or are at least ok with it.

 

I honestly don't get it, though - all that hate, from one side to the other and back again, all stemming from words written by other fallible men a couple thousand years ago, just strikes me as incredibly stupid and even more pointless.

[Innovindil]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Yeah, agreed, which I was making the point that it doesn't surprise me that some folks are happy with the IDF mowing down civilians as they did. Some people are so lost in hatred and lust for power that they enjoy that - or are at least ok with it.

 

I honestly don't get it, though - all that hate, from one side to the other and back again, all stemming from words written by other fallible men a couple thousand years ago, just strikes me as incredibly stupid and even more pointless.

I think you should fly over there and calmly explain why they are bellends tbh. 

 

World peace easy peasy. 

[leicsmac]

Just now, Innovindil said:

I think you should fly over there and calmly explain why they are bellends tbh. 

 

World peace easy peasy. 

I wish some fvcker would, but being bellends for a millennium or more seems to be a pretty hard habit to break.

[leicsmac]

https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/fifteen-thoughts-about-israel-cd047979ea92

 

Most of these are pretty pertinent, but especially:

 

"6. Any position on Israel that is determined by words made up by dead men thousands of years ago is intrinsically invalid. Saying the Jewish people are more entitled to Israel than those who were living there seven decades ago because of some superstitious voodoo written in obsolete religious texts is not an argument. Religious freedom is important, and it’s important to be able to believe whatever you like, but your beliefs do not legitimize your actions upon other people. If you murder someone in the name of Allah, you have murdered someone. If you kill 58 people because you feel some ancient scripture entitles you to a particular section of dirt, you have killed 58 people. Your internal beliefs do not give you a free pass for your egregious actions upon others."

 

YES.

[Buce]

1 hour ago, MattP said:

Hardly surprising. That's what happens when two sides hate each other.

 

I still don't think there can be justification for firing live ammo to such an extent though I'm not a security expert, but we also shouldn't forget what a lot of those people approaching that border were intending to do - carry out the instructions from Hamas to murder or kidnap Israeli soldiers or citizens.

 

That's bs, Matt.

 

It wasn't 'a border' - it was a fence, for christ's sake, and speculation over what Hamas may or may not have told them to do is just that, speculation. What isn't speculation is that the IDF used lethal force against unarmed civilians. It's a fvcking disgrace, and if it was in Iran or Syria or NK you'd be up in arms about it, not playing it down. Shame on you.

[Finnegan]

What a bonkers few weeks for Trump diplomacy. 

 

Given a lot of credit for getting the Koreas round the table one minute, needlessly instigates a fight that causes mass deaths in Israel the next. 

 

Can't see the sense in the embassy move at all, was literally just dick swinging posturing. Might have pleased some Israeli and Jewish allies but can't imagine that's worth the bad press that'll come with the whole mess. 

 

 

[Guest MattP]

12 minutes ago, Buce said:

That's bs, Matt.

 

It wasn't 'a border' - it was a fence, for christ's sake, and speculation over what Hamas may or may not have told them to do is just that, speculation. What isn't speculation is that the IDF used lethal force against unarmed civilians. It's a fvcking disgrace, and if it was in Iran or Syria or NK you'd be up in arms about it, not playing it down. Shame on you.

First get off the high horse, Hamas knew exactly what it was doing here, infiltrate the protests, get the reaction and then again start what their stated intention is - it's still in the charter in black and white - "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories" - there is no equivocation on the intent of that.

 

There is no speculation at all that Hamas called for Intifada just yesterday, the deputy leader is on the record as saying it - https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5260576,00.html
 

"The natural reaction to the death of people who were protesting peacefully should be with an Arab and Islamic intifada (uprising)," said Khalil al-Hayya, the deputy Hamas leader. "The Palestinian response must be clear in Gaza and in the West Bank. There is no other choice but to light the fire in Gaza and in the West Bank in response to what happened."
 

Humour me though, what do you think they would have done had they managed to cross the border? Have a picnic? Do a peace dance? Sing Imagine?

[leicsmac]

3 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

What a bonkers few weeks for Trump diplomacy. 

 

Given a lot of credit for getting the Koreas round the table one minute, needlessly instigates a fight that causes mass deaths in Israel the next. 

 

Can't see the sense in the embassy move at all, was literally just dick swinging posturing. Might have pleased some Israeli and Jewish allies but can't imagine that's worth the bad press that'll come with the whole mess. 

 

 

1

Well, at least one of them is giving your campaign $30 million, so I guess you've got to keep your end of the bargain.

[Guest MattP]

5 minutes ago, Finnegan said:

What a bonkers few weeks for Trump diplomacy. 

 

Given a lot of credit for getting the Koreas round the table one minute, needlessly instigates a fight that causes mass deaths in Israel the next. 

 

Can't see the sense in the embassy move at all, was literally just dick swinging posturing. Might have pleased some Israeli and Jewish allies but can't imagine that's worth the bad press that'll come with the whole mess.

Not to mention the date, literally the evening before Nakba Day. That was seriously mental and can't be passed off as anything other that provocative.

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, leicsmac said:

Well, at least one of them is giving your campaign $30 million, so I guess you've got to keep your end of the bargain.

Obama didn't so I doubt they were bothered too much.

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

First get off the high horse, Hamas knew exactly what it was doing here, infiltrate the protests, get the reaction and then again start what their stated intention is - it's still in the charter in black and white - "our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious" and calls for the eventual creation of an Islamic state in Palestine, in place of Israel and the Palestinian Territories" - there os no equivocation on the intent of that.

 

There is no speculation at all that Hamas called for Intifada just yesterday, the deputy leader is on the record as saying it - https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5260576,00.html
 

"The natural reaction to the death of people who were protesting peacefully should be with an Arab and Islamic intifada (uprising)," said Khalil al-Hayya, the deputy Hamas leader. "The Palestinian response must be clear in Gaza and in the West Bank. There is no other choice but to light the fire in Gaza and in the West Bank in response to what happened."
 

Humour me though, what do you think they would have done had they managed to cross the border? Have a picnic? Do a peace dance? Sing Imagine?

 

What Hamas said or didn't say is irrelevant - those who were shot were unarmed civilians, not armed terrorists. As well as the 60 who were killed (which included eight children), there were 1360 more injured by live fire and 400 by shrapnel. Live fire and explosives used against protestors on the other side of a fence. Since when has it been ok to use lethal force against rioters?

 

As I said before, if it was happening in Iran or NK, you'd be calling for regime change, never mind condemning it.

[Guest MattP]

7 minutes ago, Buce said:

What Hamas said or didn't say is irrelevant - those who were shot were unarmed civilians, not armed terrorists. As well as the 60 who were killed (which included eight children), there were 1360 more injured by live fire and 400 by shrapnel. Live fire and explosives used against protestors on the other side of a fence. Since when has it been ok to use lethal force against rioters?

Where is your evidence for this? 

 

The BBC even stated on the news that at least 20 of the dead protestors were affiliated with Hamas - not even the Palestinian representative claimed everyone who was shot was an unarmed civilian.

 

As for the last question, I'd imagine when those rioters pose a direct threat to the people across the other side. But I'm no security expert.

[Guest MattP]

12 minutes ago, Buce said:

As I said before, if it was happening in Iran or NK, you'd be calling for regime change, never mind condemning it.

I've not called for regime change in either of those countries and they both murder innocent people in huge numbers so that's nonsense.

 

Iran are even happy to do it cross border as well looking at their action in Yemen.

[Buce]

2 minutes ago, MattP said:

Where is your evidence for this? 

 

The BBC even stated on the news that at least 20 of the dead protestors were affiliated with Hamas - not even the Palestinian representative claimed everyone who was shot was an unarmed civilian.

 

As for the last question, I'd imagine when those rioters pose a direct threat to the people across the other side. But I'm no security expert.

 

The only 'evidence' to the contrary is coming from the Israelis.

 

The UN human rights office was heavily critical of Israel's use of force.

"The mere fact of approaching a fence is not a lethal, life-threatening act, so that does not warrant being shot," spokesman Rupert Colville told reporters in Geneva.

"How much threat can a double amputee be making from the other side of a large fortified fence?" he asked - referring to a widely shared report that a wheelchair user was killed during the violence.

 

The entire world is condemning the Israeli actions, predictably with the exception of the Americans. And you.

 

[Buce]

4 minutes ago, MattP said:

I've not called for regime change in either of those countries and they both murder innocent people in huge numbers so that's nonsense.

 

Iran are even happy to do it cross border as well looking at their action in Yemen.

2

 

You have called for it in NK, more than once, claiming it was 'our duty'.