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Vacamion

President Trump & the USA

By Vacamion, in General Chat

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breadandcheese

breadandcheese

Posted
Posted
30 minutes ago, Vacamion said:

 

Don’t care what you or the world think about protesters. Just want him to know that stuff he says and does is wrong, and people won’t stand for it.

Don't get me wrong, I don't support Trump or have any time for his views or approach.

 

However, a protest can only be aimed at our government to get them to change policy. Trump will take no interest, other than to rally against it. So the protest can only be one of two things:

 

1) To get the govt to reverse policy on working with Trump, which I cannot endorse as they are one of our closest allies and will be long after Trump has disappeared as a footnote of history.

 

2) Virtue signalling to make ourselves feel better about having to deal with a Trump presidency. Personally, I'm happy for my country to work with the current American administration without having to make some kind of moral peace or attempt to distance myself from it. That doesn't mean we have to be slavish, but at the same time, it doesn't mean we have to be insulting (as unpalatable as Trump is). I think the French approach is spot on.

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, breadandcheese said:

Don't get me wrong, I don't support Trump or have any time for his views or approach.

 

However, a protest can only be aimed at our government to get them to change policy. Trump will take no interest, other than to rally against it. So the protest can only be one of two things:

 

1) To get the govt to reverse policy on working with Trump, which I cannot endorse as they are one of our closest allies and will be long after Trump has disappeared as a footnote of history.

 

2) Virtue signalling to make ourselves feel better about having to deal with a Trump presidency. Personally, I'm happy for my country to work with the current American administration without having to make some kind of moral peace or attempt to distance myself from it. That doesn't mean we have to be slavish, but at the same time, it doesn't mean we have to be insulting (as unpalatable as Trump is). I think the French approach is spot on.

Though I think Vac's original post on this topic is pretty much spot on (hence the rep point), I do think you have a reasonable point on this too. It's very likely that this will cause Trump and his hardcore support to merely circle the wagons.

 

However, I believe there is a positive that Sampson in their OP came close to but didn't elaborate on: protests in the UK might not change the mind of Trump or those who are his biggest support, but they might - just might - change the minds of those floating voters who perhaps held their nose and voted for him out of a dislike for Hillary or didn't vote at all last time round (a key element of him winning in the first place). To know that the rest of the world disapproves, most strongly and unanimously, with the way your countrys government is doing things, can be a powerful thing. As Sampson said, "If any pressure is going to come for change from protests it needs to come from it's own people in it's own streets shutting down its own Economy. And for any protest to have any impact against Trump it needs to come from the American people not us", and that's absolutely true - however, protests in other countries might inspire at least some more American people to do exactly that.

 

Of course, there are the classical American exceptionalists who won't give two damns about what anyone else thinks, but again - perhaps it might just be enough to convince those on the fence...and quite frankly that's all a potential Dem candidate in 2020 will need.

 

Of course, it may have no visible effect at all, and if so then so be it - but it's worth the attempt, I think.

 

Regarding your own two arguments above, may I ask a question; As I mentioned to Matt the other day, is it not the mark of a true ally to be able to tell their friend and ally that they're screwing up and advocate policy to that effect?

Edited by leicsmac
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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted

The real question is why these people turn out to protest against the US president whilst not bothering when far worse turns up, you'll get the usual excuse about holding then to a higher standard but the reality is a lot of the organisers are anti West and they know they can get masses of virtue signallers with nothing better to do joining them. It's all a bit sad.

 

I like the counter protest idea of throwing dummies, nappies and bibs at the anti-Trump mob.

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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, leicsmac said:

Though I think Vac's original post on this topic is pretty much spot on (hence the rep point), I do think you have a reasonable point on this too. It's very likely that this will cause Trump and his hardcore support to merely circle the wagons.

 

However, I believe there is a positive that Sampson in their OP came close to but didn't elaborate on: protests in the UK might not change the mind of Trump or those who are his biggest support, but they might - just might - change the minds of those floating voters who perhaps held their nose and voted for him.

If anything it could do the opposite.

 

I still wouldn't have voted for Trump, but every single time I see these cry babies protesting against him it makes me side with him a bit more, I probably would vote for him in 2020. (Especially given how it's gone fairly well compared to what we were told)

 

I won't be the only one either, quite a few will vote for him next time on the basis of making sure the mob doesn't win. 

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, MattP said:

The real question is why these people turn out to protest against the US president whilst not bothering when far worse turns up, you'll get the usual excuse about holding then to a higher standard but the reality is a lot of the organisers are anti West and they know they can get masses of virtue signallers with nothing better to do joining them. It's all a bit sad.

 

I like the counter protest idea of throwing dummies, nappies and bibs at the anti-Trump mob.

3

I'm curious to know why that's an excuse in your opinion, Matt.

 

It's very easy to know that the Chinese and Russian governments (as well as others) are manipulative scuzzbuckets - and as everyone knows this, does coming out against them have any possible effect on changing their nondemocratic governments or is it just virtue signalling of its own type?

 

I believe it rather harder to examine the poor behaviour of those closer to you in ideology - and arguably more effective too, seeing as those governments are (supposedly) more open and democratic than most.

 

8 minutes ago, MattP said:

If anything it could do the opposite.

 

I still wouldn't have voted for Trump, but every single time I see these cry babies protesting against him it makes me side with him a bit more, I probably would vote for him in 2020. (Especially given how it's gone fairly well compared to what we were told)

 

I won't be the only one either, quite a few will vote for him next time on the basis of making sure the mob doesn't win. 

Hence my mentioning of those contrarians circling the wagons in my OP - however, broadly I disagree, I do think that there will be very few people who would vote for Trump next time around that wouldn't at least have been considering the idea in 2016. The "fvck you I won't do what you tell me" lot have already been won over, I don't think this would affect them any more than they already believe.

 

Number of possible people feeling they can't vote for him now based on world opinion >> number of people who would change their vote to him now based on world opinion IMO. But who knows?

 

PS. And I think you're just looking for an excuse of your own to come out for him like you wanted to in 2016. :P

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WarehamFox

WarehamFox

Posted
Posted

I think Trump is very divisional, but living in America it's getting better for everyone. He can be a tit we just need a better candidate, but so far he is doing a good job here in America! Think we could do with someone in the UK to do the same, bring back some PRIDE! 

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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted
18 hours ago, leicsmac said:

Hence my mentioning of those contrarians circling the wagons in my OP - however, broadly I disagree, I do think that there will be very few people who would vote for Trump next time around that wouldn't at least have been considering the idea in 2016. The "fvck you I won't do what you tell me" lot have already been won over, I don't think this would affect them any more than they already believe.

 

Number of possible people feeling they can't vote for him now based on world opinion >> number of people who would change their vote to him now based on world opinion IMO. But who knows?

 

PS. And I think you're just looking for an excuse of your own to come out for him like you wanted to in 2016. :P

Well I think you are looking at that through what you want to happen rather than what will (probably the same reason you gave me 6/1 on Trump winning Penn State :D) happen, marching down the street with vaginas on a head isn't going to turn average Joe against him.

 

I still wouldn't have voted for Trump and believe me I'd have had no problem coming out for him if I did, I wanted Orban to win in Hungary, Le Pen to win in France (although I'm delighted with Macron so far) and the ADF to do well in Germany, all of those are way further to the right than the Donald so no idea why you think I'd be shy about him.

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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Finnegan said:

Can I ask what would put you off voting for Trump, Matt? 

No previous experience of high-level politics, economic protectionism, casual attitude towards debt and deficit, his intention at this to remove the US from it's moral obligations around the World, the possible links to Russia.

 

Many people on my side of the divide sometimes forget much of his policy is left wing populism.

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DJ Barry Hammond

DJ Barry Hammond

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, MattP said:

No previous experience of high-level politics, economic protectionism, casual attitude towards debt and deficit, his intention at this to remove the US from it's moral obligations around the World, the possible links to Russia.

 

Many people on my side of the divide sometimes forget much of his policy is left wing populism.

 

Ok, but what if he's found to be largely right on these things? 

 

There is a chance, his policies might work (or seemed to have worked). Mean, look at the North Korea situation, that's unbelievable really.  

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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, DJ Barry Hammond said:

Ok, but what if he's found to be largely right on these things? 

 

There is a chance, his policies might work (or seemed to have worked). Mean, look at the North Korea situation, that's unbelievable really.  

Then I would vote for him next time around if I was a US citizen, at the minute he's doing a pretty good job given what we were told to expect.

 

His opponents made a huge mistake though, they said his administration would be such artmageddon they are now looking a little bit ridiculous as it was never going to be that.

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, MattP said:

Well I think you are looking at that through what you want to happen rather than what will (probably the same reason you gave me 6/1 on Trump winning Penn State :D) happen, marching down the street with vaginas on a head isn't going to turn average Joe against him.

 

I still wouldn't have voted for Trump and believe me I'd have had no problem coming out for him if I did, I wanted Orban to win in Hungary, Le Pen to win in France (although I'm delighted with Macron so far) and the ADF to do well in Germany, all of those are way further to the right than the Donald so no idea why you think I'd be shy about him.

Yep, I underestimated the apathy that caused lots of Dem voters to not vote at all - as did a lot of other folks, and so here we are. :D

 

I do stand by what I said and believe, though: the "Average Joes", as you put it, are maxed out and he has no more voters in a base that will vote for him from which to draw. If he can convince the potential Dem voters to stay home again then he could win in 2020, but I guess only time is going to tell on that one. Not saying that he's definitely going to lose, but that what he's doing now isn't going to bring many more folks into the fold than what he has already. (As an aside, I don't actually think there are many floating voters left - this has all been so polarising that pretty much everyone is one side of the fence or the other already and they'll stick to it.)

 

Thanks for the clarification that you gave Finn regarding why you wouldn't endorse Trump yourself; I had been curious and that makes things a lot clearer.

 

I definitely wouldn't say that his tenure so far has been armageddonist, but I might mention the changes in scientific and environmental policy as well as the increased rate in polarisation and far-right activity (Spencer and his bunch of merry men are having a ball with him in charge) that has at least been enabled by this administration as causes for concern.

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted

In other news, the SK president himself is saying that Trump should win the Nobel Peace Prize for what's going on in Korea right now.

 

TBF he knows better than most and he himself has had a key part in bringing NK to the table, so fair enough.

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Guest FriendlyRam

Guest FriendlyRam

Posted
Posted

Trump threatens to genocide a whole race of people and he's up for a peace prize :rolleyes:

 

What scares me though is people who despised him before are starting to like him because of exactly that which is absolutely crazy

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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, FriendlyRam said:

Trump threatens to genocide a whole race of people and he's up for a peace prize :rolleyes:

 

What scares me though is people who despised him before are starting to like him because of exactly that which is absolutely crazy

When did he threaten to genocide a whole race of people? 

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Buce

Buce

Posted
Posted

 

Trump 'dictated his own health note':

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/01/trump-dictated-doctors-note-harold-bornstein

 

And has previous for pretending to be his own spokesman:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/donald-trump-alter-ego-barron/2016/05/12/02ac99ec-16fe-11e6-aa55-670cabef46e0_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.41ae6b9cd50e

 

He is a national embarrassment to the US.

 

 

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Jattdogg

Jattdogg

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, Buce said:

 

Trump 'dictated his own health note':

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/may/01/trump-dictated-doctors-note-harold-bornstein

 

And has previous for pretending to be his own spokesman:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/donald-trump-alter-ego-barron/2016/05/12/02ac99ec-16fe-11e6-aa55-670cabef46e0_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.41ae6b9cd50e

 

He is a national embarrassment to the US.

 

 

For those of us who arent us citizens or live outside the USA i agree.   But 42% of americans in latest polls aprove of him. Some might say thats low and it is but to an outsider like me i cant fathom how he won election or has 42% lol

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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Jattdogg said:

For those of us who arent us citizens or live outside the USA i agree.   But 42% of americans in latest polls aprove of him. Some might say thats low and it is but to an outsider like me i cant fathom how he won election or has 42% lol

Not really that hard to fathom surely? Low unemployment, economy doing well and recent foreign policy success.

 

How long that will last is another thing.

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leicsmac

leicsmac

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, MattP said:

Trump approval rating at an eleven month high.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/president-donald-trumps-approval-rating-reaches-11-month-high-185429553.html

Not massive news really, tbh - there's been little variance in the overall approval rating in those 11 months, it's dotted between 38-42% for pretty much all of those past eleven months, which gives a pretty good idea of just how polarised the lines are drawn.

 

When he gets north of 50 for a consistent period of time like the vast majority of his predecessors, then that might be noteworthy.

 

In other related news, there's something of a storm going on regarding the White House Correspondents Dinner. Apparently Michelle Wolf was too on the nose:

 

https://www.facebook.com/NowThisPolitics/videos/2031466310218182/

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maynefox

maynefox

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, MattP said:

Not really that hard to fathom surely? Low unemployment, economy doing well and recent foreign policy success.

 

How long that will last is another thing.

Are you referring to North Korea?

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Guest MattP

Guest MattP

Posted
Posted
22 minutes ago, maynefox said:

Are you referring to North Korea?

Yes. 

 

When the President of South Korea is calling for you to win the Nobel peace prize it's probably a success.

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