Nick Posted 27 May 2017 Share Posted 27 May 2017 23 hours ago, yorkie1999 said: You can't do anything against any of the above because you'll be branded a racist and you will be the social leper whilst they laugh at you. I bow to your time and experience working with those who have held extremist views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benguin Posted 27 May 2017 Share Posted 27 May 2017 2 hours ago, Paddy. said: Equally I'm not sure how you construed my comments as being somehow sympathetic of extremism? Perhaps I wasn't clear enough but my point was that at least Corbyn (who I really am not a fan of) was prepared to start some sort of discourse about the problem and acknowledge some of the root of the problem. There doesn't seem to be much discussion about it on a public level let alone any real action. My personal opinion is that by refusing to engage properly with the problem then we're not really tackling it- merely piling more and more pressure on to our security services. In my opinion, the more we discuss it openly and constructively in the public domain the more impressionable young Muslims will be exposed to the truth rather than hearing the lies of dubious Imams behind closed doors. We can't do much about what goes on there but a more helpful media approach might stop a few nutters doing something disgusting. Marvellous idea, let's discuss and agree an amicable solution with people who want to execute anyone who disagrees with their beliefs. I'm sure that conversation will go swimmingly. "Yeah no problem Corbyn, I'll take off this nail bomb strapped to my waist and come have a chat with you." Blaming our military intervention and all this tosh as the reason people blow themselves up is comparable to blaming Women who wear short skirts as to the reason they got raped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tielemans63 Posted 27 May 2017 Share Posted 27 May 2017 57 minutes ago, Benguin said: Marvellous idea, let's discuss and agree an amicable solution with people who want to execute anyone who disagrees with their beliefs. I'm sure that conversation will go swimmingly. "Yeah no problem Corbyn, I'll take off this nail bomb strapped to my waist and come have a chat with you." Blaming our military intervention and all this tosh as the reason people blow themselves up is comparable to blaming Women who wear short skirts as to the reason they got raped. Okay. If you're going to take everything I say to the Nth degree them we'll stop there. If that's genuinely your interpretation of what I said then there's really no point continuing this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wymsey Posted 27 May 2017 Share Posted 27 May 2017 Old Vic Theatre in Waterloo evacuated over bomb threat. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40070521 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benguin Posted 27 May 2017 Share Posted 27 May 2017 1 minute ago, Paddy. said: Okay. If you're going to take everything I say to the Nth degree them we'll stop there. If that's genuinely your interpretation of what I said then there's really no point continuing this discussion. Fair enough. I strongly disagree with Corbyn's attitude to terrorism and the Middle East, so naturally if someone states that he has a good point, it is in my interest to try and show that he doesn't. It is also common practise when opposing views meet, to either pick low hanging fruit or as you said "take it to the nth degree." I will totally admit that I have done that in this instance and am more than willing to debate specifics should you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiberalFox Posted 27 May 2017 Share Posted 27 May 2017 I found this article interesting (It's a bit long): Our children in Manchester paid the price of business as usual A price some Western and Muslim leaders are all too willing to pay By Nafeez Ahmed https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/the-manchester-attack-was-the-price-of-business-as-usual-6a74f385912f Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiberalFox Posted 27 May 2017 Share Posted 27 May 2017 2 hours ago, Benguin said: Fair enough. I strongly disagree with Corbyn's attitude to terrorism and the Middle East, so naturally if someone states that he has a good point, it is in my interest to try and show that he doesn't. It is also common practise when opposing views meet, to either pick low hanging fruit or as you said "take it to the nth degree." I will totally admit that I have done that in this instance and am more than willing to debate specifics should you wish. Do you not think maybe that you could be incorrect about something or that another person's point of view could have value? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rincewind Posted 27 May 2017 Share Posted 27 May 2017 4 hours ago, theessexfox said: Are you? Sadly it doesn't surprise me one bit. I am surprised when they say we have hold no responsibility for what happens there when I thought weapons contribute more a little bit to warfare. When questions are asked as to how to stop those in the ME shooting each other with weapons Britain and other countries have sold them no-one thinks of taking those guns away from them. If you have a young child and they keep throwing a toy out of their pram what do you do? Take away the toy. Do it often enough and they will learn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benguin Posted 27 May 2017 Share Posted 27 May 2017 19 minutes ago, LiberalFox said: Do you not think maybe that you could be incorrect about something or that another person's point of view could have value? Well if I was incorrect I'd need someone to give me a strong counter argument to dissuade me of said view. Not sure what you're on about in the second part of that question? Of course people can have valuable opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facecloth Posted 27 May 2017 Share Posted 27 May 2017 6 minutes ago, Benguin said: Well if I was incorrect I'd need someone to give me a strong counter argument to dissuade me of said view. Not sure what you're on about in the second part of that question? Of course people can have valuable opinions. Well surely if you think the other guy is wrong, and he believes he's as right as you think you are, you need to give him reasons to dissuade himself of said view and not nitpick his argument to the nth degree.. Surely if you're so confident in your view you can easily pull apart his argument and not just pick at the low hanging fruit as you put it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benguin Posted 27 May 2017 Share Posted 27 May 2017 1 minute ago, Facecloth said: Well surely if you think the other guy is wrong, and he believes he's as right as you think you are, you need to give him reasons to dissuade himself of said view and not nitpick his argument to the nth degree.. Surely if you're so confident in your view you can easily pull apart his argument and not just pick at the low hanging fruit as you put it. Surely you need to read before posting if said post is supposed to serve a purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facecloth Posted 27 May 2017 Share Posted 27 May 2017 4 minutes ago, Benguin said: Surely you need to read before posting if said post is supposed to serve a purpose. Don't think I've said anything incorrect. If you'd like to make a strong counter point to dissuade me then go ahead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benguin Posted 27 May 2017 Share Posted 27 May 2017 Just now, Facecloth said: Don't think I've said anything incorrect. If you'd like to make a strong counter point to dissuade me then go ahead 3 hours ago, Benguin said: Fair enough. I strongly disagree with Corbyn's attitude to terrorism and the Middle East, so naturally if someone states that he has a good point, it is in my interest to try and show that he doesn't. It is also common practise when opposing views meet, to either pick low hanging fruit or as you said "take it to the nth degree." I will totally admit that I have done that in this instance and am more than willing to debate specifics should you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Facecloth Posted 27 May 2017 Share Posted 27 May 2017 3 minutes ago, Benguin said: Well why didn't you instead of going for cheap shots to start with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benguin Posted 27 May 2017 Share Posted 27 May 2017 1 minute ago, Facecloth said: Well why didn't you instead of going for cheap shots to start with? Because we're on a football forum, not a bloody debate show. You go for low hanging fruit with the intention of the person either revaluating their view or them turning out to be passionate and knowledgeable about the subject and rebutting hence a good debate blossoms. In this instance clearly Paddy wasn't keen to get into this debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiberalFox Posted 27 May 2017 Share Posted 27 May 2017 20 minutes ago, Benguin said: Well if I was incorrect I'd need someone to give me a strong counter argument to dissuade me of said view. Not sure what you're on about in the second part of that question? Of course people can have valuable opinions. If I was "on about" anything it would be that you seemed more intent on "winning" the argument than actually debating the subject in a respectful way. If you aren't 100% sure you are correct then misrepresenting someone's views isn't going to allow you to reasonably evaluate whether their views are correct or have value as they are either going to tell you to get lost or try to clarify their view in the mistaken belief that you misunderstood them. If you are sure you are 100% correct then you should be confident of explaining why your view is correct and theirs isn't, and misrepresenting their view won't allow you to do that because you are no longer dealing with their actual view but the one you invented for them. I think people get put off getting involved in politically relevant discussions on this board and boards like this because they either don't get listened to or people to try to rubbish their opinions for no reason other than entertainment. I think that's a shame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benguin Posted 27 May 2017 Share Posted 27 May 2017 3 minutes ago, LiberalFox said: If I was "on about" anything it would be that you seemed more intent on "winning" the argument than actually debating the subject in a respectful way. If you aren't 100% sure you are correct then misrepresenting someone's views isn't going to allow you to reasonably evaluate whether their views are correct or have value as they are either going to tell you to get lost or try to clarify their view in the mistaken belief that you misunderstood them. If you are sure you are 100% correct then you should be confident of explaining why your view is correct and theirs isn't, and misrepresenting their view won't allow you to do that because you are no longer dealing with their actual view but the one you invented for them. I think people get put off getting involved in politically relevant discussions on this board and boards like this because they either don't get listened to or people to try to rubbish their opinions for no reason other than entertainment. I think that's a shame. To be honest I agree with you to an extent and admit to this but what you have to understand is that we're talking about terrorism here following a pretty horrifying attack on our country, we are also on a forum not at a moot club so firstly comments made will naturally be extreme or to the nth degree. I do not for a minute doubt that members on this forum have valuable opinions and that good friendly debates can't take place, in fact I have had many of the aforementioned styles of debate on this forum on many occasions for instance @leicsmac has changed my views on climate change in the past. Some subjects offer a different dimension to debate especially under the circumstances, namely heat of the moment and medium. I have admitted that I went for low hanging fruit twice, I offered to debate specifics but there was no reply. Not sure what the witch-hunt is about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LiberalFox Posted 27 May 2017 Share Posted 27 May 2017 7 minutes ago, Benguin said: To be honest I agree with you to an extent and admit to this but what you have to understand is that we're talking about terrorism here following a pretty horrifying attack on our country, we are also on a forum not at a moot club so firstly comments made will naturally be extreme or to the nth degree. I do not for a minute doubt that members on this forum have valuable opinions and that good friendly debates can't take place, in fact I have had many of the aforementioned styles of debate on this forum on many occasions for instance @leicsmac has changed my views on climate change in the past. Some subjects offer a different dimension to debate especially under the circumstances, namely heat of the moment and medium. I have admitted that I went for low hanging fruit twice, I offered to debate specifics but there was no reply. Not sure what the witch-hunt is about. There's no witch hunt. I can understand heat of the moment, the medium might influence the type of debate indirectly and enforce rules differently. I don't like it when people use the "it's a football forum" as a justification for acting with disrespect though. I'm not suggesting you are doing that here, I don't think you are actually. I think football forums are a great way for ordinary people to engage in debates and discussions. Hopefully we can all have more friendly debates, I don't think I change my views directly based on discussions on places like these but I do get signposted towards evidence or experiences that do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strokes Posted 28 May 2017 Share Posted 28 May 2017 19 hours ago, LiberalFox said: There's no witch hunt. I can understand heat of the moment, the medium might influence the type of debate indirectly and enforce rules differently. I don't like it when people use the "it's a football forum" as a justification for acting with disrespect though. I'm not suggesting you are doing that here, I don't think you are actually. I think football forums are a great way for ordinary people to engage in debates and discussions. Hopefully we can all have more friendly debates, I don't think I change my views directly based on discussions on places like these but I do get signposted towards evidence or experiences that do. You fat bastard, you fat bastard, you eat all the pies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.