Manchester Arena blast

[Babylon]

3 minutes ago, Strokes said:

All this deport them nonsense is pretty futile, they are mostly British nationals, it's our problem to deal with. We need to understand why these 2ns/3rd generation immigrants are so easy to turn against us and our way of life. Why they hate us and stop the huge amount of potential terrorists in the future, otherwise it looks pretty bleak.

Some of the shite I see on twitter and facebook is laughable. It's like people don't have two brain cells to rub together.

 

"Deport them"

Where to? They're British born.

"Anywhere"

Doesn't work like that

"Deport them back to where their parents came from"

What if they are also British born?

"Put them on a boat or just kill them"

Sigh

[Alf Bentley]

7 minutes ago, Strokes said:

All this deport them nonsense is pretty futile, they are mostly British nationals, it's our problem to deal with. We need to understand why these 2ns/3rd generation immigrants are so easy to turn against us and our way of life. Why they hate us and stop the huge amount of potential terrorists in the future, otherwise it looks pretty bleak.

 

True. What this attack also reminds me is that the reasons why such people turn to Islamist terrorism can vary wildly.

 

A number of the people who committed attacks on the continent were petty criminals and losers with no history of devotion to Islam. Presumably getting involved with Islamism gave them a feeling of having a role or status that they lacked before - or they were vulnerable to indoctrination in prison, on-line or in the community. That seems like a wider social problem.

 

This killer in Manchester seems different. Half of his family seem to be involved in Islamist extremism, starting with his father, whose involvement seems to date back many years. Whether other factors played a part will become clearer (it sounds as if his behaviour had changed and become more aggressive in recent months). But I presume his family involvement in Libyan extremism played some part. How you deal with that, I don't know....maybe clamp down more on people promoting extremist ideas, even if it's abroad? Devote more security resources to monitoring activities of British citizens/residents abroad? It's easy to ask why his father was allowed in as a refugee. But I suppose that at the time he'd have been "one of the good guys fighting the foul dictator Gaddafi" and there wouldn't have been any expectation of his Islamist views being turned against the UK via his children (global Jihadism barely existed back in 1990 or whenever the father was accepted as a refugee).

[Strokes]

17 minutes ago, Alf Bentley said:

 

True. What this attack also reminds me is that the reasons why such people turn to Islamist terrorism can vary wildly.

 

A number of the people who committed attacks on the continent were petty criminals and losers with no history of devotion to Islam. Presumably getting involved with Islamism gave them a feeling of having a role or status that they lacked before - or they were vulnerable to indoctrination in prison, on-line or in the community. That seems like a wider social problem.

 

This killer in Manchester seems different. Half of his family seem to be involved in Islamist extremism, starting with his father, whose involvement seems to date back many years. Whether other factors played a part will become clearer (it sounds as if his behaviour had changed and become more aggressive in recent months). But I presume his family involvement in Libyan extremism played some part. How you deal with that, I don't know....maybe clamp down more on people promoting extremist ideas, even if it's abroad? Devote more security resources to monitoring activities of British citizens/residents abroad? It's easy to ask why his father was allowed in as a refugee. But I suppose that at the time he'd have been "one of the good guys fighting the foul dictator Gaddafi" and there wouldn't have been any expectation of his Islamist views being turned against the UK via his children (global Jihadism barely existed back in 1990 or whenever the father was accepted as a refugee).

I don't think there is ever going to be an absolute solution, as no two situations are identical but it cannot harm to try and identify why and if there would be anything that could have rescued it. Trying to look for similarities and trends could help limit them hopefully.

[MPH]

6 hours ago, toddybad said:

If you want to discuss the leaks, I'm happy to do so.

If you want to be pedantic about the wording I've used to describe those leaks - described as a stream within the media - then you can do one. 

 

 

Im simply saying stop over exaggerating.  Take a chill pill.

[Lionator]

We had a relative period of peace between 2008-2012, incidentally when the Middle East was at it's most stable before the arab spring which spawned ISIS as well as the Iraq war.

[Guest MattP]

13 minutes ago, Lionator said:

We had a relative period of peace between 2008-2012, incidentally when the Middle East was at it's most stable before the arab spring which spawned ISIS as well as the Iraq war.

People always forget the Arab Spring.

 

Even without the Iraq war it's probable the reason would now be in this state. It gives a small minority of people an excuse though to try and offer up some justification for these attacks.

[Guest MattP]

Totally the right decision to cut the Americans out of this as well.

 

Not just talking about information leaks here but even pictures etc - it's totally deliberate.

[Rincewind]

Didn't a well known politician (name escapes me)  say in the HOC just before the invasion of Iraq that it would lead to an increase in terrorism refugees and an unstable Middle East for years to come? Where are those kind of wise politicians when we need them?

[Guest MattP]

1 minute ago, Rincewind said:

Didn't a well known politician (name escapes me)  say in the HOC just before the invasion of Iraq that it would lead to an increase in terrorism refugees and an unstable Middle East for years to come? Where are those kind of wise politicians when we need them?

Wasn't that same guy though who also said we shouldn't defend the Falklands and do nothing about various genocides around the World? Which would have led to some horrific consequences.

 

The phrase "a stopped clock is even right twice a day" comes to mind.

[Nick]

3 hours ago, Thracian said:

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40038971

 

 

 

What a sad testimony to laws and activists in this country which and who continually thwart the ability of various authorities to deal with all and any threats to this country, including the always strident voices on here. Doubtless it is not their youngsters who are lying in a morgue today.

 

Seems as if almost every killer terrorist is "known" but left on the streets by authorities who fail to take the responsibility they need to. Or is it sometimes that they choose not to act so as to glean more information and make a greater number of arrests further down the line and to hell with those who are killed in the meantime?

 

We go on about how we need to look after the sick, the poor and those who hide among others to come to this country with no love for it whatsoever, but we let our own youngsters get ripped to shreds by people we know and expect to do just that.

 

In letting them or their parents settle here, without due diligence which so often seems to be lacking,  we become party to the killings and the maimings and to all the consequent misery. But still we do it and wash our hands of those consequences.   

 

It's a disgrace and there's no excuse. If we can't be diligent and take responsibility for sorting good/or compatible,  from bad or incompatible, then close the gates until we can and will.   

 

Because when even the Manchester attrocity  blows over there will be more repeats and more excuses.

More social manipulation and pretence that our enemies are, or will be, our friends and that people with a declared agenda will somehow be persuaded to look at things differently. They won't and only idiots wearing mental blinkers insist that they will.      

 

And make no mistake mental blinkers are real.

 

There are seemingly intelligent people out there who don't believe evil exists and who refuse to accept evil when it stares them in the face, For them there is always a reason, a way of mending people. There probably isn't and who should recklessly take the time to do so if there is. 

 

Because what's is the point of mending anyone if first they're allowed and facilitated in the taking of the lives or health/happiness  of so many others first, and second and for as long as they can get way with it while being effectively excused by their apologist "friends"?.

 

What matters isn't the next world,  and the pretence of knowing what God wants.

 

It's keeping our kids safe in this world today from the sort of sad, misguided souls who bomb innocent kids at concerts?

 

I sometimes wonder if these people have proper parents who actually care about the damage sustained brainwashing does to their offspring (whoever actually evolves the brainwashing) as they walk the world in the black and grey that seems to so reflect the bleakness of their souls.   

 

If by some warped thinking the terrorists were serving "God" then "God's" welcome to them and to any kind of paradise "he" supposedly reserves for them.

 

But really God's name is sinfully being taken in vain.

 

By the bombers and by the parents, associates and other manipulators of the bombers who sew the seeds of fanatisism, hatred and misguided ideas. Not for God. But for power and control and perhaps even out of fear. Just as some men have always done and have always found followers to back them like sheep.

 

It's time for vision and leadership in our land.

 

And I can't see a real leader anywhere because democracy dilutes leadership and offers nothing but argument in return. We don't need strong "opposition" we need someone to show the way because we're lost right now.  

 

 

  

 

       

 

 

Lovely rhetoric Tony.

 

Now post what you would do if you were in charge and let's see you for what you really are.

[Wymsey]

Man guilty of bomb plot on Birmingham to London railway line..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-40046773

[Fox92]

3 hours ago, Strokes said:

All this deport them nonsense is pretty futile, they are mostly British nationals, it's our problem to deal with. We need to understand why these 2ns/3rd generation immigrants are so easy to turn against us and our way of life. Why they hate us and stop the huge amount of potential terrorists in the future, otherwise it looks pretty bleak.

True that we cannot deport them but once they go over to places like Libia they shouldn't be allowed back.

 

Their families flee countries like this yet want to go back regular?

[tylesta]

More than one attack a month in Europe since 2014

[urban.spaceman]

Apparently we are all ISIS.

 

[Innovindil]

6 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Apparently we are all ISIS.

 

It's funny because one of this suicide bombers classmates said he used to be sound and laugh and joke with people before turning to religion. 

[Realist Guy In The Room]

I have no idea how shit someone's life is that would make them think that blowing up kids is a good option.  On the same token, I dont understand how people can be so acceptant that Western Forces have interfered and screwed up boiling pot regions in the middle east and think there's no correlation.  Only today we hear of a US drone strike killing 100 innocents but nobody really gives a shit.  

 

We have a massive problem in this country.  People born and raised here are killing their own.  Why?  Normal rational people are talking about 'getting rid of muslims' (whatever that means), closing the doors to the refugees etc.

 

There isnt a pattern or reason or rhyme to any of this shit.  Until we get more information from security services as to why people turn, we're all just pissing in the wind to find a solution.

[Webbo]

I've not studied this so I may be wrong but as I understand it his parents came here as refugees from Col Gadafi and then we got rid of Col Gadafi for them. Wtf is he angry at the UK for?

[MrSpaM]

24 minutes ago, urban.spaceman said:

Apparently we are all ISIS.

 

Well that's one way of getting yourself on the watch list...

[urban.spaceman]

17 minutes ago, Innovindil said:

It's funny because one of this suicide bombers classmates said he used to be sound and laugh and joke with people before turning to religion. 

"He was a really nice bloke until he saw Dave from Luton's Facebook post about being offended by the Burka, and then he came to the obvious conclusion that an 8 year old girl at a pop concert is a fair target at which to express his rage at this"

[yorkie1999]

Hospitals put on alert for this weekend. I get the feeling they've found some sort of evidence that another bomb's been made. Scary.

[Wymsey]

3 minutes ago, yorkie1999 said:

Hospitals put on alert for this weekend. I get the feeling they've found some sort of evidence that another bomb's been made. Scary.

It's events like these that make the NHS hospitals stronger and together to help others in emergency situations (as well as the cyber-attack event), really, and the public should appreciate how vital they're to the country during times like this.

Have full respect for most that know how to deal with emergencies.

-

Heard there was some sort of bomb scare in Mountsorrel, not sure on the full details of it though..

[Nick]

1 minute ago, Wymeswold fox said:

It's events like these that make the NHS hospitals stronger and together to help others in emergency situations (as well as the cyber-attack event), really, and the public should appreciate how vital they're to the country during times like this.

Have full respect for most that know how to deal with emergencies.

-

Heard there was some sort of bomb scare in Mountsorrel, not sure on the full details of it though..

In Mountsorrel  

 

Now there's a target I can get behind 

[yorkie1999]

1 minute ago, Swan Lesta said:

In Mountsorrel  

 

Now there's a target I can get behind 

What was that about getting on the watch list.

[Nick]

1 minute ago, yorkie1999 said:

What was that about getting on the watch list.

 

[Buce]

18 minutes ago, Webbo said:

I've not studied this so I may be wrong but as I understand it his parents came here as refugees from Col Gadafi and then we got rid of Col Gadafi for them. Wtf is he angry at the UK for?

 

I think the problem we in the West have is a lack of understanding of the concept of Ummah; to a Muslim, the Nation of Islam takes precedence over any nation state to which they also belong. So, even when they are born here, even when they have lives of privilege here, when we bomb and kill other Muslims we are bombing their people.